Project M Social Thread

[GP&B]

It is somewhat relevant as a number of the PMBR members are former B+ developers. The resolve to avoid constant updates or even monthly updates at that is something that is learned from the experience of another project. Part of why P:M is so awesome is that the experience of developing B+ has helped them learn from a lot of mistakes.

 

[odinNJ]

they should get to a level where they feel comfortable, then leave it, and if a super hax glitch shows itself or somebody is megagod tier then they fix it
leaving it on its own will foster metagame development

 

[Youngling]

I always just think how if people could have complained to Nintendo about buffs/nerfs how radically different melee would have been. Everyone would have been crying for a sheik nerf. I think since Nintendo made a game that's (for the most part) balanced without even really having a competitive aspect in mind, then the PMBR can FOR SURE make a balanced game.

Just my 2 cents. I think the PMBR should take as long as they need to on future releases. I don't care if I have to wait 3 years (ok kind of).

 

[GunBlaze]

dude what

ganon's double jump is short as hell
doesn't make him a bad hcaracter

Never said it did. It's just I somewhat got used to the old one. No offense.

 

[Xebenkeck]

Let me put it this way I always thought that balancing the existing cast would be the easy part. And when you look at P:M right now I think people generally agree some of the best balanced/buffed characters are the characters whom appeared in melee. As SB said look at Ness, Mario, Link, Pikachu, Ganon, Falco, Fox, Sheik, Jiggz, Marth, G&W, DK, Falcon, Luigi, Peach. If demo 2 consisted of only these characters, the vast majority of people would agree the game is balanced.

Bowser and Zelda are the only exceptions to this, as people have wildly varying opinions on how good/bad they are.

The integration of the Brawl newcomers into the melee enviroment would be the hardest, for the simple fact that we have not seen what they can do in melee. All those mentioned above, we've had 10 years to know what their weaknesses and strengths were in melee, even for bottom tier characters like Ness/G&W/Bowser. And adjusting them to be viable was done very well in P:M IMO.

It is the newcomers that are going to take a while to figure out whether or not they are OP/underwhelming. I play Ness mainly, but to me he is balanced, everything that was wrong with him was addressed, so I am content with him and don't play him much in a demo of the final release. I am mainly playing Wolf, Lucas, and Dedede in demo 2. Main reason is that these are the characters that are going to need the bulk of testing and metagame development. And frankly I encourage most people to play the Brawl characters for this very reason.

 

[Youngling]

Something that's also been on my mind is the issue of having so many viable characters. I think this may lead into issues when developing a metagame because people may just CP characters in order to always have a favorable match up.

Some of you may disagree with me, but I think one of the great things about melee is that if you main a high tier you really don't need any secondaries. I think this leads to people focussing more on developing knowledge of matchups instead of just going to another character to win. I know there are exceptions (mew2king with 3 mains, armada switching to YL against hbox) but for the most part I really think that this is true

Edit: basically what I'm asking for is to either keep matchups at a 65:35 maximum (I'd prefer 60:40 but I know that that would be very difficult), or to only have a handful of characters really top tier. Id prefer the matchups suggestion, but it would be much harder, maybe even close to impossible, to do.

 

[odinNJ]

cant wait for the metaknight drop. It will happen and the world will not be ready

 

[Shadic]

Something that's also been on my mind is the issue of having so many viable characters. I think this may lead into issues when developing a metagame because people may just CP characters in order to always have a favorable match up.

Some of you may disagree with me, but I think one of the great things about melee is that if you main a high tier you really don't need any secondaries. I think this leads to people focussing more on developing knowledge of matchups instead of just going to another character to win. I know there are exceptions (mew2king with 3 mains, armada switching to YL against hbox) but for the most part I really think that this is true

But at the same time, there might not be any super polarizing matchups when everything is done. And almost everybody plays two characters. The biggest exception to that are hardcore Falcon mains.

 

[odinNJ]

**** counter picks. **** high tiers. the reason im mad is that theyll always buff the low tiers, so there will be no underplayed chars that i can explore

 

[MonkUnit]

Just finished uploading 34 new videos to our channel. Mostly using Bowser (25/34 vids!), Ganon, Ike, TL, Sheik, and Peach. Enjoy!

 

[RaphaelRobo]

But at the same time, there might not be any super polarizing matchups when everything is done. And almost everybody plays two characters. The biggest exception to that are hardcore Falcon mains.

I feel like the Ike/Ganon matchup is really really bad for Ganon. That's probably just due to my lack of experience with it, though. In the end, I think the matchup will end up being unfavorable for Ganon, but not too bad. I do think it'll be his worst matchup, though.

EDIT: I just realized I never got an answer to my question a few pages back about why you guys changed Ganon's upAngled Ftilt so it no longer hits people on platforms. What was your reason for doing this?

 

[Youngling]

But at the same time, there might not be any super polarizing matchups when everything is done. And almost everybody plays two characters. The biggest exception to that are hardcore Falcon mains.

I had just edited my above post when you posted this, I touched on the polarizing matchup thing. That's really what I'm hoping for.

I think the majority of the people who main 2 or more characters don't do it so they can CP certain characters, but rather do it so if one character feels off that day (or set or whatever) they can switch. For example, Mango has said many times that he doesn't care what character he's playing against; he will play who he feels like playing. To an extent i think Mew2king can be thrown in this category too (an exception would be his Marth vs fox)

Edit: what I was trying to say with ^^^ is that a lot of people who play more than one char don't necessarily do it for MU purposes

Edit: Also, Im going to have to disagree with you on people playing 2 characters. I think if you want to say that someone plays 2 characters, then they have to be playing their other character at least 25% of the time. These are just random people off the top of my head but PP (goes Marth rarely in pools games for no reason), KK, Armada (played I think one game vs mango with fox at genesis I believe, and also the whole YL thing vs hbox) Kage, Jman, Lucky, Hbox, all the falcon mains, shroomed, javi all really only play one character

 

[Archangel]

This argument is somewhat valid, but neglects the fact that melee was brand spanking new in terms of everything it had to offer. PM is melee supercharged turbo 2.0, but underneath it's not so vastly different that we need a half-decade to figure things out.

I am not saying that a month is enough time (nor am i saying that it it isn't), I'm just tired of seeing this argument without that disclaimer.
/QUOTE]

it is true that melee isn't exactly new and this is made after melee but Charzard in a melee setting is 100% new. Melee Ganon also played somewhat different. I'd argue that this ganon in Melee would see much better tournament results.

 

[Deleted member]

http://www.smashmods.com/forum/announcement-8.html
@People that are requesting balancing changes: please read that.

I guess you've made yourself abundantly clear. Acknowledged.

 

[Youngling]

Now lets go back in time to competitive melee's start. Some character's potential was seen early. Fox/Falco/Sheik remain near the top even today and have always been there. however characters like Falcon, Puff, IC's took years to establish themselves. Even in recent years you see various shifts like the sudden emergence of Yoshi's and Pikachu's that have shown what characters once thought fail tier can do. The of course their are various characters who have fallen since the first tier lists. Mario, Zelda, Samus, Marth, Ganon, Doc...etc where all at one point considered ABOVE puff. It wasn't until a man by the name of Dan started using Jigglypuff well did peoples eyes start opening. Now...do Ganon and Zard have THAT kind of potential hidden somewhere...who knows. But surely arguing that their potential doesn't exceed the average E tier character with only a months worth of playing is just something I don't take seriously. As someone who oversaw the development of melee of years and still continues to watch it develop...I find it hard to believe that you've seen all their is to see in a Month's time.

One of the best posts in this thread by far

 

[leelue]

I guess you haven't read anything that I, kinklink, 9k, or grim Tuesday have ever written.
We are still talking about sarcasm, right?

BTW, fyi, imo, iirc, afaik
Sonic vs Mario will never be even a 35:65 matchup. Not unless some miracles happen.

 

[Shadic]

EDIT: I just realized I never got an answer to my question a few pages back about why you guys changed Ganon's upAngled Ftilt so it no longer hits people on platforms. What was your reason for doing this?

It wasn't something we "changed." It was just a byproduct of the animations we made for Ganon's angled Ftilts. He lacked them in Brawl.

It's something we're looking into in the back room. Please don't think we're ignoring you just because we haven't replied to your post. It just means we don't feel like talking about the progress (or lack thereof) publicly.

That goes for everybody, really.

 

[leelue]

Without some kind of notice, we have no way of knowing what's being looked at or forgotten.

 

[Youngling]

I guess you haven't read anything that I, kinklink, 9k, or grim Tuesday have ever written.
We are still talking about sarcasm, right?

BTW, fyi, imo, iirc, afaik
Sonic vs Mario will never be even a 35:65 matchup. Not unless some miracles happen.

The humbleness!

 

[Sethlon]

@leelue: the sideb functions as you would expect. you don't fall down retardedly quickly, it functions like a normal sideb would.

Any idea on when we'll be getting a patch/etc to fix this/stuff like it? Personally, its incredibly frustrating when I'm trying to recover and the game kills me instead

Also, Boozer2GudNerfNaoOrISellGame

 

[ZelDan]

Hmm, I actually thought Ganondorf was pretty good in PM from what my friends and I have played of it.

 

[Shadic]

Any idea on when we'll be getting a patch/etc to fix this/stuff like it? Personally, its incredibly frustrating when I'm trying to recover and the game kills me instead

Soon. Like, should actually be soon.

 

[GP&B]

Like not Blizzard soon and within a month soon?

 

[Sethlon]

Soon. Like, should actually be soon.

Awesome.

10youguysare's

 

[Wolfy!]

Soon. Like, should actually be soon.

Sweeeeeeeet.

 

[Archangel]

One of the best posts in this thread by far

Honestly never thought I'd see this following one of my posts. I'd be lying if I said I didn't wish for it someday...thank you...for making my dreams come true <3

I guess you haven't read anything that I, kinklink, 9k, or grim Tuesday have ever written.
We are still talking about sarcasm, right?

BTW, fyi, imo, iirc, afaik
Sonic vs Mario will never be even a 35:65 matchup. Not unless some miracles happen.

I honestly agree with you on both issues....minus the "I"

Mario is such an ******* now it's not even fun to use him. You just beat up people who use to **** you up all day long. Sonic...he's gonna wish he didn't beat Mario at the Olympics.


on another note......OmgItsSethlonHisRoyIsSoAwesomeIaHugefan!

 

[Pyrostormer]

Not sure how feasible this is at all, but making a custom app (to replace gecko) that included auto updates for PM would go a long, long way for this project. Just something to consider if anyone has the knowhow...

 

[Archangel]

hackless Wii seems to be enough for anyone who really wants to play it....still...if it was possible then It would be a good idea....just not sure it's possible.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

It wasn't something we "changed." It was just a byproduct of the animations we made for Ganon's angled Ftilts. He lacked them in Brawl.

It's something we're looking into in the back room. Please don't think we're ignoring you just because we haven't replied to your post. It just means we don't feel like talking about the progress (or lack thereof) publicly.

That goes for everybody, really.

I figured you guys weren't ignoring me, I just thought you might have missed the post.

The animation thing was what I wanted to know about. Stupid Brawl animations are screwing with all my cool Ganon stuff.

 

[Archangel]

I must take this time to apologize to someone(forgot who) about Marth. It seems I overlooked a very real issue with his tipper. The shortest way to explain it is phantom tipper. Just like in Melee when there were phantom attacks that did half damage and hand no knockback or anything. The only difference being he does 20% damage as normal. However the effects, trajectory...etc randomly don't work. If you line people up and tipper them over and over again you are going to notice that sometimes he just doesn't seem to do a normal tipper. He does tipper damage but the attack is more like a non-tipper.

So whomever it was that brought it up I sincerely apologize for making light of your discovery.

 

[PEEF!]

My thoughts on stages (thanks to Chinesea or however you spell it for discussing with me):

We do away with the traditional Counterpick system entirely. It was only needed because of a small usable stagelist, and bad character design. We now have the capability to fix all of that.

8-10 neutral stages. Only the best and least random and truly most neutral survive. If we need a couple more, the team makes them. If we need less, the team perfects the best ones.

Once we have the stages, everything works normally. Bans, and counterpicks only from the neutral list.

"What if a character needs a CP/ is bad on the neutrals?" We fix the character.

"What about Randall/DL64 wind/Yoshis Island Ghosts? They make those stages randomish?" Remove all that stuff.

Thoughts?

 

[Archangel]

All I know is I've been focusing somewhat on Ike lately and one thing is for sure. On walled stages he's 20% better. No walls and he feels alot worse than he is. btw I was wondering....does his jab have Sword priority or something?

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I'd like to test Peef's idea and see how it works out. There's only a couple modifications I'd make.

Randall isn't random, and people can use him while playing. It's fine to leave him in, because he adds a strategy. The timer is easy to memorize, and everyone should know it and use it during a game.

For FoD, the platform movement is also randomish, so I'm surprised you didn't mention it. It's on a timer in PM, which means it's nowhere near as bad as Melee, but it's a very long timer so it'll take a lot of work to memorize.

Overall, though, I think the idea is worth testing out. I don't know if it'll be as good as our CP system, but we won't know until we try. Would people stage strike for every game, or would the winner still ban and the loser still choose like in our current system?

 

[Strong Badam]

You're still complaining about FoD.
Putting you on my ignore list.

 

[MaxThunder]

I had just edited my above post when you posted this, I touched on the polarizing matchup thing. That's really what I'm hoping for.

I think the majority of the people who main 2 or more characters don't do it so they can CP certain characters, but rather do it so if one character feels off that day (or set or whatever) they can switch. For example, Mango has said many times that he doesn't care what character he's playing against; he will play who he feels like playing. To an extent i think Mew2king can be thrown in this category too (an exception would be his Marth vs fox)

Edit: what I was trying to say with ^^^ is that a lot of people who play more than one char don't necessarily do it for MU purposes

Edit: Also, Im going to have to disagree with you on people playing 2 characters. I think if you want to say that someone plays 2 characters, then they have to be playing their other character at least 25% of the time. These are just random people off the top of my head but PP (goes Marth rarely in pools games for no reason), KK, Armada (played I think one game vs mango with fox at genesis I believe, and also the whole YL thing vs hbox) Kage, Jman, Lucky, Hbox, all the falcon mains, shroomed, javi all really only play one character

Not really adding to the discussion or anything... but PP has been putting some effort into marth lately... nd i think he went all marth in a tourney a while back or something...

 

[RaphaelRobo]

You're still complaining about FoD.
Putting you on my ignore list.

Why don't you explain to me, then, why you're fine with the platforms on FoD.

I've said they often result in me getting hit (and KOed, because Ganon is easy to combo) when I platform dash or the platform just moving me into the attack. I've never understood, the whole time I've been playing, why people are alright with the platforms moving around.

The only response I've heard on the other side is "Don't complain they mess with Falcon/Ganon's SHFFL". I don't complain about the SHFFL, and I think that's the fault of the player, not the stage. I'm fine with FoD as a stage, or a starter in larger lists (7/9 stages), but with our Melee definition of a starter, I don't think it fits on 5 stage lists, and I think there are better options for 7 stage lists.

It's hard for me to change my opinion about FoD when I don't hear anyone telling me why I should change it, other than saying my opinion is "wrong" or "bad". Justify why FoD is a good starter, and I'll be fine with it being a starter.

 

[Wolfy!]

Not really adding to the discussion or anything... but PP has been putting some effort into marth lately... nd i think he went all marth in a tourney a while back or something...

S2J plays Falco sometimes, Shroomed went all Marth in the last tournament that I went to (might have switched to Doc at some point, but he played Marth for the majority of his matches), and Kage plays a little Falcon.

Not really adding to the discussion or anything, just thought I'd point it out.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

Is there still going to be a patch? Or is that gonna get rolled over to Demo 3?

 

[GP&B]

Shadic said it should be coming soon, realistically.

 

[Strong Badam]

Raph: I have explained 800 times. A stage aspect that inherently favors one character over another is not bad, otherwise there would be 1 legal stage. The stage is a starter because it is similar to most other starters and has literally no random aspects. If your character is bad on FoD, strike it/ban it, don't try to whine until it's not a starter anymore. I should not have to justify why it's a Starter, because it is. You should be justifying why it isn't as you're the one who wants to change it.