Project M Social Thread

[Biz_R_0]

That's exactly my point. The problem is, a lot of the others think that, despite buffer all but completely nullifying this, it's this horrible thing that breaks the game.

 

[Vkrm]

I've always thought brawl felt icky from the get go. This could be why. Nobody is downplaying how bad this is. In a good game, skill is what counts when trying win. Random nonsense like is always a big problem.

 

[Biz_R_0]

Except it isn't because buffer pretty much nullifies it.

 

[trash?]

Yeah, it's relevant. If this was a big deal we would've already known, because we would've been noticeably effected by it and searched for an explanation.

I don't even think you understand what a strawman even means.

If you're going to keep repeating yourself with "no it's not because [things I just said that people said were wrong]", then you're not ever getting a proper answer.

Buffering existed to mask this, and when people took buffering off in any mods (LIKE THIS ONE, WOAH HEY) the bug was seen. As it turns out, this entire thing started from you whining that this wasn't a big deal, even though P:M doesn't have buffering at all.

Of course, it seems like you completely moved goal posts since then. GJ

 

[Vkrm]

Not at all. You can't buffer everything. There are thing that you have to react to.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Same with buffer, but we figured that out pretty early on.

Buffer is easy to notice, especially since there are 10 frames of it compared to 1-2 for the input lag. It also only happens in specific situations rather than whenever you input anything, which makes it easier to spot since it sticks out.

This means nothing and is just you attempting to shoehorn in your opinion.

So you think input lag makes a game feel better? I guess it's subjective but I don't think the majority of people would agree with you.

Melee and 64 didn't have this. Unless you're talking about Brawl mods, in which case we discovered buffer before Brawl+.

Melee and 64 are not directly comparable to Brawl. They have completely different game engines. Buffer I already explained was very easy to notice.

EDIT: Also this

Not at all. You can't buffer everything. There are thing that you have to react to.

 

[Biz_R_0]

I don't even think you understand what a strawman even means.

I don't think you know what it means, as the way you're using it suggests that you think it means "not being literal and speaking only with scientific fact".

If you're going to keep repeating yourself with "no it's not because [things I just said that people said were wrong]", then you're not ever getting a proper answer.

When did anyone ever say that any of those things were wrong? Link me directly to them.

Buffering existed to mask this, and when people took buffering off in any mods (LIKE THIS ONE, WOAH HEY) the bug was seen.

First off, you don't know that. Second, I'm talking about vanilla with buffer. Go back to my list of things I'm not saying and you'll see that I'm not talking about P:M.

As it turns out, this entire thing started from you whining that this wasn't a big deal, even though we don't have buffering at all.

Go back to the list, specifically the "I'm not talking about P:M" part.

Of course, it seems like you completely moved goal posts since then. GJ

My point then: "This isn't a big deal in vanilla Brawl and this will be used as a John or nitpick"

My point now: "This isn't a big deal in vanilla Brawl and this will be used as a John or nitpick"

Those goalposts are in the same place they always were, you just need to aim better.

 

[Mattnumbers]

It's not something you can john about since it affects everyone the same, but it is something that makes the game feel bad to play. People don't mean it breaks competitive play they mean it just makes the game feel sluggish.

 

[Biz_R_0]

Buffer is easy to notice, especially since there are 10 frames of it compared to 1-2 for the input lag. It also only happens in specific situations rather than whenever you input anything, which makes it easier to spot since it sticks out.

And my point is that this wouldn't be very hard to notice if it had a significant impact, because people would notice that something's wrong and try to find an answer.

So you think input lag makes a game feel better?

I never said that. Hey, Mr. Everythingisastrawman, where were you on this one?

EDIT: Also this

And then, in the few times where you can't buffer something and need frame perfect accuracy, you'd have a point. However, there are very very very VERY few situations where that would happen in Brawl.

It's not something you can john about since it affects everyone the same, but it is something that makes the game feel bad to play. People don't mean it breaks competitive play they mean it just makes the game feel sluggish.

Which nobody noticed for almost 5 years and that was only even mildly suspected when you went frame by frame in a TAS.

Like what? No human player can react to an attack in two frames so anything that happens in two frames has more to do with guessing

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[V-K]

But how come this was never a problem until now? It went almost 5 years without being discovered, people would've looked into this way earlier if it actually had a significant effect because they would've seen the effect.

lol many people noticed it. There are several posts of people including me that state they notice button delay compared to Melee.

Some people even said they didn't wanna play PM until the delay was fixed.

 

[Jolteon]

We've got another update for you guys!

Ike and Wario Character Spotlights are live!

Be sure to check out this update if you haven't already!

Also, Eli is still streaming at: http://www.twitch.tv/freesaltines

 

[Smooth Criminal]

"Mildly suspected?"

A lot of people knew about the input delay beforehand, Bizzaro. They just weren't aware of the scope of it (even to the ****ing menu selection? Really?).

*holds up his hands.* Not necessarily jumping into the middle of this fiasco, but I just wanted to point that out.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Biz_R_0]

lol many people noticed it. There are several posts of people including me that state they notice button delay compared to Melee.

Might be because, surprise surprise, Brawl is slower than Melee. It's the fact that nobody actually searched for an answer and just shrugged it off that makes it not a big deal.

 

[V-K]

Might be because, surprise surprise, Brawl is slower than Melee.

Doesn't matter, the statement that people didn't notice the delay is simply wrong.

 

[trash?]

I never said that. Hey, Mr. Everythingisastrawman, where were you on this one?

Do you usually talk in such aggressiveness?

I'm going to apologize for my own inability to completely understand the context of your argument. I'm not going to apologize for my rudeness, however, since your original anger (coupled with a rather lazy attempt at hiding it) absolutely deserves the reaction it was given.

 

[Biz_R_0]

Do you usually talk in such aggressiveness?

If I was aggressive, I wouldn't be playing Brawl

 

[Melomaniacal]

Might be because, surprise surprise, Brawl is slower than Melee. It's the fact that nobody actually searched for an answer and just shrugged it off that makes it not a big deal.

Just because we didn't know exactly what the problem was doesn't mean we weren't looking for a solution. Before this we thought it was the dead frame, before that buffer, before that just Brawl being slower, and I'm sure there have been other theories that I haven't kept up with.

The bottom line is that we knew Brawl was lessr responsive. We felt it, we knew it was there. Maybe we didn't know the exact nature of it, but we have certainly been striving to fix it, and what do you know, we are getting closer.

Maybe none of that is necesarry for Brawl, but we aren't trying to play Brawl.

 

[standardtoaster]

This isn't the Debate Hall, guys. Take it elsewhere.

 

[Vkrm]

Might be because, surprise surprise, Brawl is slower than Melee. It's the fact that nobody actually searched for an answer and just shrugged it off that makes it not a big deal.

So because we didn't notice, it must not be that big a deal? The lag f'ed you over anyway. It doesn't matter that you had no idea. And from what I hear people did notice.

 

[`dazrin]

Infracts will be given out if this keeps up.

 

[Biz_R_0]

I didn't know premium members had mod powers.

 

[Giygacoal]

Midnight launch?

 

[`dazrin]

We don't, but we have friends in high places.

Sooooo is the PMBR still working out bugs 2 days from release or do yall already have the download ready and waiting? 3rd times the charm for on time release.

The PMBR is working hard to prep things for release and make sure everything is perfect for you all!

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Midnight launch?

There should totally be a launch party for 2.5.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Giygacoal]

I'm having one with my scrub friends the dAy after release. You know, to be safe.

 

[McNinja]

Infracts will be given out if this keeps up.

Long arm of the law.

 

[PGH Carroll]

WHAT DID YOU GUYS DO TO MY BELOVED IKE!?!??!?

someone will pay

 

[bubbaking]

How can you john about something that is an issue for everyone equally?

I haven't been keeping up with this conversation, 'cause it seems silly, but if this is about what I think it is, then I think it's fairly reasonable for people to 'john' about random lag frames (don't forget that it's not applied to EVERY input) because it specifically counteracts differences in skill based on the ability to execute precise inputs. This is yet another tool that directly fights against the 'better player' in order to prevent him from always beating a player with less skill. I can go fish up the article again if people want it, but Sakurai did say he was gonna make this a major point in Brawl. No one should be surprised.

Anyway, in case people missed it with all this lag talk burying it in another page, I'll re-post this:

Christmas technically lasts 12 days, right? Well then, Merry Christmas everybody!

http://www.mediafire.com/?owyp5q1an08k0

Well, it ain’t Christmas Eve/Day anymore, but I figured I might as well release my own brstm packet anyway. If you’re a fan of Sonic Advance, Sonic Battle, Sonic 3 & Knuckles, DBZ Budokai, Earth, Wind, & Fire, OverClocked Remix, Dubstep, Techno, and/or Rock songs, then you’ll probably find something you like in my selection, but there’s also some Metroid and SM64 remixes and some other stuff mixed in, so who knows? All songs are with standard P:M backgrounds in mind. If you want to know which specific brstm is a certain song, PM me. I have an ordered list:

[collapse="Organization of Songs and Stages"]Menu
Title Screen (Sonic Battle)
Expectation (Dragonball Z Budokai)
Big Opportunity (Dragonball Z Budokai 2)

Yoshi’s Island
September (Earth, Wind, & Fire)
Air Rally (Rhythm Heaven Fever)
Late in the Evening (Paul Simon)
In the Stone (Earth, Wind, & Fire)

Rainbow Cruise
Tails’ Twirly Tune Retro Remix (Sonic Battle Remix of Tails’ Lab)
Call Me Al (Paul Simon)

Halberd
Running to Victory (Dragonball Z Budokai)
Phi Battle (Sonic Battle)
Final Battle (Sonic Battle)
Back to Mad (Texas ******)
OCR Scrambled Eggman (Sonic 3 & Knuckles Remix of Boss Theme by Project Chaos)
OCR Malicious Fingers (Sonic 3 & Knuckles Remix of Final Boss Theme by Project Chaos)
Afterburner (Noisestorm)
Cosmic Angel Zone (Sonic Advance)
Egg Rocket Zone (Sonic Advance)
X Zone (Sonic Advance)
Egg Rocket Remix (Sonic Advance Remix of Egg Rocket Zone)
Pinball Wizard (The Who)

Metal Cavern
Metal Mario (Super Smash Bros 64)
OCR The Glacier’s Peak (Sonic Advance Remix of Ice Mountain Zone: Act 1)
OCR Heads Up for Tails (Sonic 3 & Knuckles Remix of Final Boss Theme by Project Chaos)
OCR Devastation’s Doorway (Super Mario 64 Remix of Koopa’s Road and Bowser’s Theme)
OCR The Alternate Route (Super Mario 64 Remix of Koopa’s Road)

WarioWare
Nonaggression (Sonic Advance 3)
Cell Games Arena BW Soundfont (Dragonball Z Budokai Remix of Cell Games Arena)
Egg Rocket Cosmic Angel Zone Remix (Sonic Advance Remix of Egg Rocket and Cosmic Angel zones)
Cosmic Angel Zone Arranged Remix (Sonic Advance Remix of Cosmic Angel Zone)
Catgroove (Parov Stelar)

Brinstar
Metal Depot (Sonic Battle)
OCR Cranial Syphon [Kay-raid] (Metroid Remix of Kraid’s Chamber)

Pictochat
Battle Highway Remix (Sonic Battle Remix of Battle Highway)

Fountain of Dreams
Fountain of Dreams (Super Smash Bros Melee)
Cosmic Angel Remix (Sonic Advance Remix of Cosmic Angel Zone)
Egg Rocket Zone Remix Extended (Sonic Advance Remix of Egg Rocket Zone)
Egg Rocket Zone Remix* (Sonic Advance Remix of Egg Rocket Zone)
Egg Rocket Zone Trance Mix (Sonic Advance Remix of Egg Rocket Zone)

Smashville (Normal)
OCR The Ken Song (Street Fighter II Remix of Ken’s Theme)
Library (Sonic Battle)
Kamikaze (Five Iron Frenzy)***
Basket Case (Green Day)
Amy’s Room FL Cover Remix (Sonic Battle Remix of Amy’s Room)

Smashville (K.K.)
Club Rouge (Sonic Battle)

Yoshi’s Story
Yoshi’s Story (Super Smash Bros Melee)
Let’s Groove (Earth, Wind, & Fire)

Green Hill Zone
Cosmic Angel Zone Remix (Sonic Advance Remix of Cosmic Angel Zone)
Chaos Battle (Sonic Battle)
Scatman (Scatman John)

Skyworld
Castle Crashers Feint DnB Remix (Castle Crashers Remix)

Dracula's Castle
OCR In the Darkness of Time (Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow Remix of Clock Tower)

Kongo Jungle
Kongo Jungle (Super Smash Bros 64)
Chambermaid Swing (Parov Stelar)

Pokémon Stadium
OCR Red Cyclone (Street Fighter II Remix of Zangief’s Theme)
Emerald Beach – Sonic Generations Version (Sonic Battle)

Pokémon Stadium 2
Battle Highway (Sonic Battle)
Cosmic Angel Zone Remix MegaDrive Version (Sonic Advance Remix of Cosmic Angel Zone)

Final Destination
Shockwave (Noisestorm)
Showdown (Pendulum)
OCR The Doomsday (Sonic 3 & Knuckles Remix of Doomsday Zone by Project Chaos)
NonAggression XG Remix (Sonic Advance 3 Remix of Nonaggression)
What I’m Made Of… (Sonic Heroes)

Battlefield
**Ballad of the Goddess - Legend of Zelda 25th Anniversary Symphony (Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword)
Challengers (Dragonball Z Budokai)
Cell Games Arena (Dragonball Z Budokai)
Like a Burning Wind (Dragonball Z Budokai)
Move Forward Fearlessly (Dragonball Z Budokai)

*All the Egg Rocket and Cosmic Angel remixes are different, so you may want to pick and choose which ones you include. I liked all of them so I simply included all of them.
**This is completely different from the version of Ballad of the Goddess on Skyloft. That version is the theme played during the trailer of the game and is not as ‘complete’ as this.
***There are actually two versions of this song on SV. Each one is of the exact same song, but looped differently.[/collapse]

 

[Vkrm]

It is every input.

 

[bubbaking]

It's 0-2 frames of lag, which means it's practically not every input.

Edit: The fact that it's sometimes 0 frames and sometimes 2 frames makes it even worse because the consistency ranges from precisely want you want to laggier. Also, I'm not saying that Sakurai did this purposely to mess up 'better players' but it probably wasn't a priority to remove because of said objective.

 

[hotdogturtle]

The real reason nobody played Wario is that he's a ugly smelly fat man

Meanwhile everybody was claiming they'd be the best Zamus in the world in the P:M thread on the Melee boards before we even knew anything about her. There's a reason for that.

That's just one of the things that was caused by Brawl. Even from the first trailer we knew that Wario had the fart, the biker outfit, and a bunch of strange moves. Now that Project M has given him a more canon moveset, he should be more appealing to play.

 

[Vkrm]

I misunderstood. I shouldve said every type of input could potentially be delayed.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I mean, WarioWare is my favorite game series. I was super-excited that he had WarioWare elements in Brawl.

Either way, I think people didn't/don't like Wario in PM because he plays very differently from pretty much every character. He's not a very Melee-ish character.

Also, cool it with the thread derailing about Brawl's input stuff. That's not what this thread is for.

 

[DMG]

Wario flavor wise is fine. The way he actually played you nailed it on the head: he was super gimmicky compared to other characters. Why does he have to do weird tech chases and hard reads when people can Uthrow into free hits or force certain DI's to be safe?

The Side B buffs I particularly enjoy. It feels STUPID for a man doing a shoulder charge that creates a shockwave in his path, to outright lose to measely fireballs and crap. It doesn't fit Wario or the move to lose to **** like that lol.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm really excited for his new grab game. It's going to play off of momentum really well, and the grab game is something I really don't use well/often enough in Brawl, so I think it would help me there, too.

 

[cannedbread]

new dash grab is nice
and i think you may be able to get some cute stuff done with the weak fthrow

 

[TheReflexWonder]

F-Throw -> regrab at low percents is a personal favorite. You can also catch their jump with a U-Air or Forward-B, too. Either way, the mix-ups do a great job of making people feel afraid to choose any one option, which is a nice change from "well, they're gonna get a free hit, so I'd better use optimal DI." There are many situations where "optimal DI" isn't really something you can reflexively do!

 

[Arcansi]

There are many situations where "optimal DI" isn't really something you can reflexively do!

Moving from tech skill to non is generally a good thing. It's nice to see others agreeing.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Moving from tech skill to non is generally a good thing. It's nice to see others agreeing.

Regardless of my feelings on that, I don't think "optimal DI" is really tech skill-intensive. It's just neat that the opponent has to be constantly making important decisions even when Wario is in the middle of his potential combos.

A great deal of strings are set in stone, with little to be done about them once they're started. That's not really a bad thing, but the way that Wario can just keep going and going if he's in the opponent's head is kind of novel and refreshing.

 

[hotdogturtle]

The way I'm thinking of it, he can start a dash grab from far away, while the opponent shields expecting an obvious and slow side-b, and then get grabbed.

I think that was the idea in 2.1 as well, but it didn't work too well in practice because of the shorter distance, so now it will work as they intended. Correct?