Project M Social Thread

[Machiavelli.CF]

I think its just fine now, having a purpose like keeping some less technical people out.
This arguement is never going to end is it? people tried it in Brawl+ and it didnt work. what makes ppl think that Melee 2.0 will include it? xD
This Melee2 is replacing Brawl+ for me~

 

[adumbrodeus]

I hate the idea of L canceling being used for something else besides lag canceling, but whatever.

Same with JC grabbing, but idk it might help.

I'm not saying it should.


My point was, why spend all the time and energy to figure out a code to make it optional if somebody is gonna do it every time? It's just gonna increase entrance barriers without making the game any better, and it's a lot harder to code then making it happen every time.



Just make sure every AT always has a reason to do them and not do them, doesn't have to be in every situation (ex. you'd obviously L-cancel to continue your combos), but there should always be common conceivable situations for both options (to do it or not do it).

 

[Deleted member]

Just make sure every AT always has a reason to do them and not do them, doesn't have to be in every situation (ex. you'd obviously L-cancel to continue your combos), but there should always be common conceivable situations for both options (to do it or not do it).

Do football players ever not throw spirals?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Do football players ever not throw spirals?

Taking your metaphor, if I were program the universe specifically for football, why would I make it so there's no advantage to throwing something else.


Making it so there were a variety of different throw styles each with their own benefits makes football a better game, that furthermore both has more depth and is MORE TECHNICAL then it is now.


Unfortunately, that's out of our hands, the universe decided that it's best to always throw spirals for any type of long pass, but that doesn't mean that we should follow it's example.

I think its just fine now, having a purpose like keeping some less technical people out.
This arguement is never going to end is it? people tried it in Brawl+ and it didnt work. what makes ppl think that Melee 2.0 will include it? xD
This Melee2 is replacing Brawl+ for me~

Making you go through shieldbreak animation every time you miss an L-cancel would make it a more technical, but is it a good idea?


And I'm not disagreeing that it should be more technical, what I'm saying is make it rewarding to make a decision instead of "gotta l-cancel" in each situation.


It's melee 2.0, definitely keep the core, but why miss the chance to improve?


Increasing the depth of an already deep game WILL improve it, I see no reason to waste a perfectly good opportunity to make a bad design choice a good one, and make it so there's a reason to not L-cancel. Same result, more technical, still need to be able to do it on command, but no, you've got a deeper and more interesting game.

 

[Revven]

And I second MetaXzero's post that no one commented on

The reason nobody answered is because it's a given that because P:M starts off with B+ .pacs that there are already kupo's Melee camera values in the .pacs done (VietGeek matched them to kupo's old camera code).

 

[a nub]

I can't say I agree. An interesting part of melee is the learning curve and the feeling of triumph from learning these things. That idea just seems too awkward. Not to mention that with that flash appearing during successful l cancels, new players should have an easier time learning anyway. Not to mention my index finger would get too restless haha

These JC grab vs dash grab ideas seem interesting though.

Spoiler

oshi 69th post =D

 

[shanus]

Adum, some moves have autocancel windows that are far wider than the windows established in melee (i.e. most moves could only cancel on the first two frames and a few final). Autocancel windows on some moves have not been altered in which you actually shouldn't L-cancel because you will shield and therefore be putting yourself at a slowdown instead of advantage frame.

Just an fyi

JC grabs are something we were thinking of modifying long ago, where if you do a JC grab, while faster, if you whiff, you have higher endlag. Risk/reward would make it more enticing to use it during a string and not always. It hasn't been programmed yet, just former ideas on the table.

 

[Shell]

One of the main points of JC grabs was their safety. In retrospect I'm not really a fan of the proposed JC-Grabs+.

I think a better system would be to make the dash grabs have much superior grabboxes. This is already a theme in the game, with most dash grabs having grabboxes behind as well as in front, but I think this could be expanded on just enough to make choosing a laggier, larger dash grab a viable alternative to JC grabs.

This would be tricky, as too much of an improvement would enhance chain grabs.

Alternatively, make throws from dash-grabs deal 1.50x damage, or something.

Overall, the message is that I would rather seek ways of making the risk of dash grabbing more of a viable alternative and including the Melee-style JC-Grabs rather than watering down JC-grabs too much. The question you have to ask is how powerful do you want the grab game to be.

 

[Sterowent]

...But remember the core impetus, the core impetus [for Project: M] should be to add as much depth as possible, making it technical should just be a natural result of this depth.

i disagree. analyzing smash games has never been a simple feat, but from watching low lvl play to high lvl play, it dawned upon me that melee, like all the smash games, has a grand theme about it that is seen more and more the more skilled a player becomes: movement. i've talked about this before but in regards to b+, yet i knew b+ could never go to the same lengths without becoming a melee clone, or at least being fully criticized of that.

because of this, it was clear to see training pay off. some techniques aren't so easily identifiable, but on the whole when a player practiced, honing his abilities, it became obvious: he was a better [insert character here]. the player knew it, his opponents knew it, the audience knew it. perhaps, in game, yes, these techniques are arbitrary. they add no depth, minus that one situation of peach's, but for players and fans it's like going to the gun show, man.

that isn't to say in game depth shouldn't be considered though, ahah. i'm just saying.

Edit:

The question you have to ask is how powerful do you want the grab game to be.

on that note, might i ask if it is possible to pivot grab out of a moonwalk? curious.

 

[ETWIST51294]

I agree with SHeLL. Dash grabs should be risky but has more reward while JC grabs are safe.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I HAS A SUGGESTION!

OK, so maybe this is more a Brawl+ thing and maybe someone from the other brawl hack will read this, but I think it would be a great way to increase technical skill in a way that creates a real choice and adds a ton of mind-game possibilities: smash canceling.

I admit I'm thinking from a ZSS point of view (don't I always) but it probably has a million applications and opens a thousand doors. Say "L" cancels smash attacks while they are charging (either shields or just cancels it, whatever). I wavedash backward, and start dsmash. My opponent thinks I'm trying to stun them and starts running the other way or dashes in and shields, so smash cancel and grab. Seems like a really melee-y way to add mindgames and tech skill.

 

[ETWIST51294]

See now that's a good idea.

It would kinda be like focus canceling in SF4.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I admit I think it would be coolest as a character-specific thing. I LOVE Viper's cancels in SF4. LOVE IT.

 

[Sterowent]

i remember that being suggested before. there was a thread about it, but people didn't like the idea of putting out another cancel, especially since it helps characters like lucario and others with powerful smash attacks.

i'd like to see being able to halve the endframes of full-charged smash attacks on Shield though, through some button press. if your opponent decides to just sit in their shield for that, they did something wrong anyway. of course, maybe just making full-charged damage shields more would be fine with me.

the situation would be a character using a smash, obviously charging it, and the opponent would have to guess whether it'll be let off early or not to see if they can avoid the shield stun and go for the punish. if they don't go for the punish and sit in the shield, then the smash is a safe maneuver.

actually, scratch that. this would make charging safer period...this is the same problem the smash cancels had: options are taken away from the opponent and added to the aggressor, which shouldn't happen at the same time...too much faking out, not enough action. this woulda been cool for 64, though. that was a cancel-heavy smash indeed. if you could charge attacks in that one, maybe that would've been included or something.

 

[peachfvl]

so what things have you changed for charizard?

i remember someone saying to speed up his glide but what else will you change?

EDIT:also i just thought of TvC´s mega clash when you like get rid of your specials bars(3) to avoid getting comboed...could this be inserted somehow? maybe you could have one "charge" for the whole match and its up to you to decide when you should use it...the downside of this could be a 40% dmg increase or something like that...

EDIT 2: this should stop your character momentum and probably should have strong windboxes all around you so it doesn´t let your opponent to approach or continue his combo with another move. Also with this addition this mega clash could be used for gimping with the wind...of course your opponent could use his mega crash to stop him...

 

[Fletch]

This might make me buy my copy of Brawl back. Posting in here to subscribe, can't wait to see how it looks, Brawl+ just didn't do it for me.

 

[peachfvl]

for my mega clash idea is it possible to take the final position of ganon´s taunt where he spins and laughs and put it on all characters? or lucario´s final smash(when he activates it)?

Also can the input to perform a mega clash be activated using the d-pad ?

 

[Wind Owl]

Smash doesn't really need Psych Bursts...

 

[DarkDragoon]

Smash doesn't really need Psych Bursts...

This.
1) We don't really have meters or anything to work with, it would seem really out of place.
2) That kind of technique is a single-button kind of deal, not exactly the most technical or speed-based thing.
3) It would be abusable. Especially with strong windboxes. If its last stock-last hit, and someone gets a grab, just throw and activate the burst and you've sent them flying. This kind of technique doesn't merge well with the smash universe. For combo escaping, we have techs, dodges, and DI.

Keep the ideas coming though! Its good to see support!

-DD

 

[Wind Owl]

@shanus: Just because some moves are now better off autocancelled than L-cancelled doesn't mean the system is any deeper. I understand what you're saying, but once you learn whether an attack should be auto- or L-cancelled, you're going to cancel it that way every time in any situation. It's just muscle memory and a little bit of game knowledge, not a mindgame, and not risk/reward. The only reason I haven't mentioned that L-cancelling should be a decision and not a compulsion is that I've seen the suggestion shot down by die-hard Melee fans as "adding tech skill" or "separating the pros from the noobs" on numerous occasions and didn't want to contaminate this thread with a lost cause, but since it's already been brought up I might as well voice my thoughts on it: there should be some drawback to L-cancelling, or some advantage (other than ease) to not doing so.

In addition to L-cancelling being a thoughtless action, it's also much more annoying (read: not more difficult) now that we can't use the analog shoulder buttons and must press down the button all the way, although I suppose it's foreseeable that that could change.

 

[peachfvl]

This.
1) We don't really have meters or anything to work with, it would seem really out of place.
maybe the final smash glow, or do you mean codewise?
2) That kind of technique is a single-button kind of deal, not exactly the most technical or speed-based thing.
but it adds some more depth to the game
3) It would be abusable. Especially with strong windboxes. If its last stock-last hit, and someone gets a grab, just throw and activate the burst and you've sent them flying. This kind of technique doesn't merge well with the smash universe. For combo escaping, we have techs, dodges, and DI.
not that abusable if you have one for the whole match, and in your example your opponent could do his burst to save him...but maybe you´re right the we have options for combo escaping

Keep the ideas coming though! Its good to see support!
that was my only good idea
-DD

answers in red

 

[RandomLax]

Maybe give more aerials IASA to bait enemies more effectively

 

[Sterowent]

the player knew it, his opponents knew it, the audience knew it. perhaps, in game, yes, these techniques are arbitrary. they add no depth, minus that one situation of peach's, but for players and fans it's like going to the gun show, man.

*ahem*

it's not about depth ingame. it's not supposed to be. would it be fine to see every football team as a group of people with different stats that they innately owned? would it be fine to know that a QB is born with that arm of his and didn't have the need to work for it? yes, the coach would have to make the right call on plays, and, yes, players i imagine could push themselves a little harder for a better performance, but would it really be as impressive if anybody could run as fast or tackle as hard or throw the skin as well if they simply understood the technique and not the road to their physique?
it is the same. when i see a falcon, i know his hands are moving like a blur, and that's important. when i see a fox waveshine, i know it's difficult and that's one of the bigger reasons all players can't do it consistently.

maybe that analogy is unfair, but most of my point is there.


if you wanted ideas towards tagging things onto it, i guess i could throw one down. perhaps if a player misses an aerial that is then L-canceled to help keep from being punished, the opponent can run in and clash with some of those stars you guys were talking about. you know, the small stars that signify correctly using the tech. clashing with them would put the player in powershield state or something and so would allow them to do anything if they're that close. yeah, it's a bad idea, ahah. tossing em around!

 

[Deleted member]

Taking your metaphor, if I were program the universe specifically for football, why would I make it so there's no advantage to throwing something else.


Making it so there were a variety of different throw styles each with their own benefits makes football a better game, that furthermore both has more depth and is MORE TECHNICAL then it is now.


Unfortunately, that's out of our hands, the universe decided that it's best to always throw spirals for any type of long pass, but that doesn't mean that we should follow it's example.

Except you assume that we need a variety. The spiral is, by definition, the perfect throw. The L-cancel, in my opinion, is the perfect tech. By making L-canceling the best option every time, you place a pressure on the players to perform it consistently. Such is the case with throwing spirals; such is L-canceling. That pressure is what makes games like this fun to watch.

 

[DarkDragoon]

Except you assume that we need a variety. The spiral is, by definition, the perfect throw. The L-cancel, in my opinion, is the perfect tech. By making L-canceling the best option every time, you place a pressure on the players to perform it consistently. Such is the case with throwing spirals; such is L-canceling. That pressure is what makes games like this fun to watch.

This.

We know they're going to do it every time, but they ARE capable of missing. Its when they miss that the opponent has a chance to steal the ball, the momentum, from his opponent, and pull the game in his favor. Its not to add depth, its to put a more human and skill based component. If you mess up, you chance that you're done for.

This is not a useless addition, like tripping, where we DON'T know when it will happen, and it is completely outside of player control.

Of course, we have our outliers like Peach's FAir dodging grabs, or auto-cancel Aerials, but they still have certain requirements, and if those aren't met, its the player's active decision to LCancel that will ultimately be their fallback plan.

-DD

 

[Wind Owl]

I guess it just comes down to a fundamental "is training physically at video games worth one's time" question, so maybe it's not worth arguing at all.

Side note: Killingworth is the most bad *** name for a town I've ever heard.

 

[DarkDragoon]

I guess it just comes down to a fundamental "is training physically at video games worth one's time" question, so maybe it's not worth arguing at all.

xD Which is what I've been saying all along. Take it from someone who is going to be putting more time into making this game than getting good at it:

"If you have the time to put yourself into a skill based, competitive game, you should be ready to dedicate as much as you want to get out of it."

If you want to be the best, you're going to be putting the most time into it at one point or another, regardless of what it is you're perfecting. Whether its match-ups, tech skill, reaction time, strategy- anything! You will have a time investment proportional to the amount of skill you gain from it, based on your methods of learning.
[i.e. staring at the controller for 7 hours won't make you any better at LCanceling]

So, regardless of what is added to Project:M in the end, it just boils down to how much time you want to spend to get better, and then following through.

Until then, we'll do our best to provide exciting and balanced gameplay.

------
:D Come visit me! =P
-DD

 

[Sterowent]

the devil's advocate in me offers the argument that most techniques already have a level of pressure sufficient enough in performing techniques that have an active role, not a passive one, in what the player is doing. auto-L-cancel takes away a sheen of difficulty that has no role in the game. in those active techniques, if a player does mess up, something more than a lack of efficiency happens, such as WDing back on the stage but instead ADing in the air and dying, or a falco missing a midair shine, jumping out of it, and being shot offstage, likely gimped. L-canceling is the only true passive technique, so whether or not it is done doesn't matter. it's to be done and always done (though auto-cancel introduction combats this).

the argument against this would then be that the game injects the need to approach it like most things in life, competition or not. life isn't easy. things Are 'needlessly' hard. like life, L-canceling brings that level of difficulty that's simply there as a buffer in living. it solidifies this game into something people can relate to other things they deal with, and that's the point.

hey, i'm on a tangent. let's talk about psychology now, while i'm feeling smooth.

 

[Wind Owl]

Chess takes lifetimes to get good at, and doesn't involve compulsive muscle memory. Just sayin'.

 

[Shell]

I see points of both side. Chess doesn't really involve any muscle coordination, though. Not quite the right analogy.

 

[DarkDragoon]

the devil's advocate in me offers the argument that most techniques already have a level of pressure sufficient enough in performing techniques that have an active role, not a passive one, in what the player is doing. auto-L-cancel takes away a sheen of difficulty that has no role in the game. in those active techniques, if a player does mess up, something more than a lack of efficiency happens, such as WDing back on the stage but instead ADing in the air and dying, or a falco missing a midair shine, jumping out of it, and being shot offstage, likely gimped. L-canceling is the only true passive technique, so whether or not it is done doesn't matter. it's to be done and always done (though auto-cancel introduction combats this).

the argument against this would then be that the game injects the need to approach it like most things in life, competition or not. life isn't easy. things Are 'needlessly' hard. like life, L-canceling brings that level of difficulty that's simply there as a buffer in living. it solidifies this game into something people can relate to other things they deal with, and that's the point.

hey, i'm on a tangent. let's talk about psychology now, while i'm feeling smooth.

Chess takes lifetimes to get good at, and doesn't involve compulsive muscle memory. Just sayin'.

You two are quite silly.

=P

I see points of both side. Chess doesn't really involve any muscle coordination, though. Not quite the right analogy.

I just had an image of a coma patient playing chess.
-DD

 

[camelot]

I just discovered something interesting.

Onett has its camera settings left over from Melee. If you copy the camera file (MiscData[10]) to any other stage, it turns Melee-ish.

 

[zxeon]

That's pretty cool Camelot.

 

[Kix]

Certain moves having auto-cancel windows does not somehow make the majority of moves have a reason to L cancel or not L cancel. That adds no strategy to the standard game. These are merely exceptions. Is there any reason to L cancel these?

I'm sure there are ways to keep the L cancel actually canceling lag while making the non-L canceling do something else. Even if the normal L cancel was tweaked somewhat.

Chess probably is a bad example. Games inherently have execution windows, etc.

 

[Kitamerby]

I just discovered something interesting.

Onett has its camera settings left over from Melee. If you copy the camera file (MiscData[10]) to any other stage, it turns Melee-ish.

What exactly is the difference?

 

[GHNeko]

The camera is probably more dynamic.

I think imma test that out.

 

[jalued]

ok 2 things to say: first of all, smash canceling was already ruled out as it is a defensive technique and would add nothing to the gameplay at all. A smash attack is a commitment, with high risk, high reward. Stop trying to sneak it into a new thread in the hope that people have forgotten, Get over it

second of all, with L canceling, i have recently gotten back into melee, playing falco. Yes high level players never miss an L cancel, but if they did, they would risk loosing an entire stock because of it (ie missed nair->shine with falco resulting in a marth grab->KO).

also people forget shieldstun...which changes the timing of L cancelling slightly and takes a while of practice to overcome. 100% L cancel is not easy, and it adds a learning curve to the game that is beneficial to a competitive audience.

not to mention its far more satisfying to work for your combos, rather than be handed them on a plate ala brawl+

 

[shanus]

I'm just going to mention one thing:

Don't make me make more codes! I have enough work to do already!

lol

 

[Revven]

Also you guys have to realize that right now the timing is going to be slightly different from Melee simply because Brawl's L/R triggers don't react to just pressing them down lightly, you have to push them all the way in. It may not matter much in the long run but when you're first learning it, it will make a slight difference.

 

[shanus]

Also you guys have to realize that right now the timing is going to be slightly different from Melee simply because Brawl's L/R triggers don't react to just pressing them down lightly, you have to push them all the way in. It may not matter much in the long run but when you're first learning it, it will make a slight difference.

Almas is working on a code to do light presses.