Project M Social Thread

[Dark Sonic]

to a character that's arguably best or second best in the game.

....no he's not dude. All of the high level melee players agree that both Fox and Sheik are better characters than Marth <_<. Even FALCO is debatable.

Just be careful with prematurely nerfing him, since he does have clear defined weaknesses in melee (very vulnerable from below, bad under shield pressure, trouble getting up from the ledge safely, trouble working in confined spaces, ect.). It's quite possible that some brawl characters will be able to abuse these things better than melee characters after they're meleefied.

I'd stick to smaller nerfs like nerfing damage before going into things like reducing his kill power (which is actually not that good outside of tippers, which he CAN'T combo into past 80% or so)

 

[Wind Owl]

PT won't be broken because there will still be characters that outright beat two of the three, or all three. Charizard is huge so he'll be easy to combo, Ivysaur will have pathetic recovery, so the characteristics in those two alone balance them. Squirtle is still "A Tier Material" in vBrawl and many characters still beat him.

Its not a problem in the slightest.

You totally missed the point of Dark Sonic Rikana's post. He wants to make them each separate viable characters (which I think is a good plan), but if we do, then someone who picks up one of them will suddenly be playing with THREE viable characters at their disposal at any given time, which is fundamentally unfair.

I don't know how I feel about it. If you take away their switching, you lose their unique gimmick. If you make them each viable, they're too good if you can freely switch.

Maybe some forced balance mechanic is in order. Something like fatigue, only actually good. Not that I can think of anything.

 

[Dark Sonic]

...That wasn't my post 0_o

 

[Wind Owl]

... My bad LOL

 

[ETWIST51294]

Yeah, Marth's definitely not the best anymore. Fox and Sheik are definitely better and Jiggs and Falco are debatable.

I think all of the Pokemon should be independent too. I don't want them to have new down-b's though.

 

[stingers]

wind owl, you don't understand PT.

 

[Hellsinglover999]

Lulz, you Marth mains can be rather melodramatic... complaining about the prospect of a few nerfs (which everyone in top would receive) to a character that's arguably best or second best in the game.

Let's just hold off on any judgments until we release something, please.

wasnt judgeing and i dont really know how brawl+ marth is what i know is melee marth and melee marth is a bit hard to kill with lol thats all i was saying

 

[Wind Owl]

wind owl, you don't understand PT.

I won't challenge that statement, but would you care to elaborate?

 

[stingers]

Well let me just ask you how you feel about Zelda and Sheik?

 

[Wind Owl]

I want them to be separately viable, as I do with PT. At the same time, I think switching should be an option, as it is with Zelda and Sheik. But PT has always had much safer switches than Z/S (especially since B+, in which Z/S can't be punished if they get a switch off but find less opportunities to do so), and having the ability to toggle between three very viable characters is a very powerful ability and it will need to be balanced in some way.

Like I said, I don't know what this way should be, and I only threw fatigue out there as an example so that people could identify with what I mean. I think the fatigue system is stupid and there's a much better system out there that we can think of.

 

[Rikana]

I think all of the Pokemon should be independent too. I don't want them to have new down-b's though.

I think it would be interesting to give them new downB's if they were individual. We can make a crappy move. By crappy move I mean very situational.

Edit: Oh and I have another point about why PT might have to be individual. Counter picks. So if one chooses character x and loses to a PT player, he/she will counter pick with another character. But because PT has 3 characters to select from, doesn't that mean they can just start off with another pokemon because technically, its still one character.

 

[Alphatron]

If a player can decently use three viable characters well, and can actually find an opening to switch to another character without being punished, then I believe that player should be rewarded. In brawl+, people don't use Pokemon Trainer if they want to use Ivysuar, because they either aren't good with the other two (and don't want the forced switch on death) or simply want to focus on one pokemon for the duration of the match up.

Even if all three pokemon are made viable (this word...is losing its definition) that does not mean that they won't have bad matchups. In vbrawl all three share bad matchups against single characters afterall. >_>

Fatigue system would have probably been good if all three pokemon had been 5x as good a TAS SSB64 Pikachu. A weakness like that would have made sense then.

Edit: Indiviual pokemon can't have DownB attacks because they never had DownB attacks. Pokemon Trainer is the one with the DownB.

 

[Rikana]

Edit: Indiviual pokemon can't have DownB attacks because they never had DownB attacks. Pokemon Trainer is the one with the DownB.

Totally forgot about that. Is it possible to use the clone engine or whatever and make the pokemons their own character and give them a new dowbB from there? I'm not very knowledgeable with these stuff so I have no idea. I'm just throwing ideas out there.

Even if all three pokemon are made viable (this word...is losing its definition) that does not mean that they won't have bad matchups. In vbrawl all three share bad matchups against single characters afterall. >_>

But this is P:M where they're gonna play much differently even compared to Brawl+ because of Melee mechanics. They may have bad matchups but it wouldn't be to the point where its like Brawl's MK vs some low tier. That might mean all 3 would probably be able to withstand that one opposing character. Well, that's what I think at least. I guess we could always just leave PT in during open beta but I'd prefer them as individual characters. I don't really know why I don't like PT as three characters, its just something about it.

 

[Wind Owl]

Well in B+ you're allowed to play either PT or one separate Pokémon, but if you pick PT you're still forced to switch every stock.

 

[Deleted member]

PT's strength is 3 characters to choose from.
His weakness is 3 characters to choose from + forced switches off KOs.
His strength is his weakness.

If Z/S had a forced switch off KOs, it'd be the exact same situation of having a double edged sword.

PT can worry less about CP characters and stages than an individual pokemon can due to his switch options.
Z/S have to worry more about CP char/stages more b/c of no forced switches on KO and the lag required to start a transformation.

Both are good, unique mechanics to the game which are balanced and increase the depth of the character's metagame.

However, some have a legitimate claim to fatigue on PT being unnecessary.

 

[Marth175]

I looked at the individual pokemon and based on what I saw, they cannot have a Downb, in other words its like giving the alloys a special, but I could be wrong

 

[superyoshi888]

Psst....you can make a bit of coding to give an Alloy special attacks.

Which means it may also be viable for an Indy Pokemon as a well.

But, as much as I like Indymon, I think they should stay as one character. Yes, give PT more freedom with his switching and keep the fatigue removed, but don't make the indymon viable on their own. Give them some sort of incentive to switch around. Make them like, Mewtwo bad alone.

Switching is PT's gimick, and having Indymon...takes away that gimick. Sure, against some characters one Pokemon alone could easily be enough, but it also works that way in the actual Pokemon games. Bad alone except in some cases, but strong as a team. The point of Pokemon AND the point of Pokemon Trainer.

 

[shanus]

FOr people interested in how our new codes work, and a teaser of a code:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=266053

 

[Marth175]

Great job shanus, this will help with some things I had in mind but didnt know very well how to tackle them, Ill let you guys know what I come up with if its a success

 

[ETWIST51294]

Psst....you can make a bit of coding to give an Alloy special attacks.

Which means it may also be viable for an Indy Pokemon as a well.

But, as much as I like Indymon, I think they should stay as one character. Yes, give PT more freedom with his switching and keep the fatigue removed, but don't make the indymon viable on their own. Give them some sort of incentive to switch around. Make them like, Mewtwo bad alone.

Switching is PT's gimick, and having Indymon...takes away that gimick. Sure, against some characters one Pokemon alone could easily be enough, but it also works that way in the actual Pokemon games. Bad alone except in some cases, but strong as a team. The point of Pokemon AND the point of Pokemon Trainer.

That sounds dumb. Why would I want to learn 3 bad characters? Just make them independent, forget about PT. I would be pissed if I wanted the main my favorite character but had to learn 2 crappy characters I don't even want to play as.

 

[superyoshi888]

The same reason why people would want to learn Kirby or Pichu?

A Fighting game where every character is viable is ideal, but not everyone plays them for competitive reasons. The only reason I even support this project is because of all the fun I had with Melee.

You wouldn't even NEED to learn the other two. But they are there if you need an impromtu counterpick. Maybe your opponent doesn't really have experiance with Ivysaur. You could start off with Squirtle, then switch characters mid-match to give yourself an edge.

If the three indymon were made to be viable, even at mid-tier level, this edge would be very broken. That is why I said they need to be around Mewtwo's level, maybe higher or lower depending on how PT fairs in the public beta.

Of course, you could just remove PT from the picture altogether. But IMO that sounds dumber, because PT is meant to be played like a team.

 

[Cross.]

how is snake looking guys? he is strong? xD

 

[Alphatron]

Just do what B+ did and have three indivual pokemon alongside Pokemon Trainer.

 

[metaXzero]

Just do what B+ did and have three indivual pokemon alongside Pokemon Trainer.

THIS. Why have it any other way?

 

[shanus]

People seem to forget that we used B+ as a base and for a long time I was the lead developer of B+. We will have indy pokemon and trainer as an option, no question about it. Best of both worlds

 

[superyoshi888]

Quick question, then. That discussion mainly stemmed from balance related issues brought up.

What will be done about PT? Having three viable characters in one sounds rather...broken.

 

[GPDP]

Quick question, then. That discussion mainly stemmed from balance related issues brought up.

What will be done about PT? Having three viable characters in one sounds rather...broken.

Yeah, because PT is so broken in Brawl+, right?

 

[superyoshi888]

Yeah, because PT is so broken in Brawl+, right?

Because sarcastic comments are a good arguement, right? :/

I'm not talking about Brawl+. Project M is a seperate entity. If, by any chance the new physics and mechanics favor PT, I just wanted to know how he would be balanced out.

I realize this isn't top priority, but it would be nice to know.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Uhh, you guys act as if this suddenly becomes an accumulative effect.

The 3 pokemon's strengths just don't suddenly combine to be captain planet, they're usually just equally decent.

 

[VietGeek]

PT lacks heart anyways

 

[iLink]

I don't get how being able to change your playstyle during a match constitutes as broken. That just means you have to adapt to changes during the match. It's not like you can use all of the character's strengths at once.

 

[Alphatron]

If a player can master all three pokes, then allow them to be rewarded for it.

 

[ETWIST51294]

People like playing the Pokemon independently anyways. Well, most people for the most part.

 

[Deleted member]

... Shanus already said what's going to occur with PT in P:M. Anyway...

Will PT have fatigue in P:M? Or type weaknesses? Fire just obliterates Ivysaur, and it's just way too common. =/

PT lacks heart anyways

Ash texture surgically transplants 17 hearts into boring old PT.

 

[jalued]

... Shanus already said what's going to occur with PT in P:M. Anyway...

Will PT have fatigue in P:M? Or type weaknesses? Fire just obliterates Ivysaur, and it's just way too common. =/



Ash texture surgically transplants 17 hearts into boring old PT.

i think this was discussed in brawl+..they are trying to get rid of it completely, as it destroys ivysaur and helps squirtle.

There was an idea that for PT when you die, by pressing L or R, you could choose which pokemon you can play as next (except for the pokemon you last used). This would add to the strategy of PT.

however i think it was not considered as it is impossible to code (maybe then, not sure now)

 

[Rikana]

There was an idea that for PT when you die, by pressing L or R, you could choose which pokemon you can play as next (except for the pokemon you last used). This would add to the strategy of PT.

however i think it was not considered as it is impossible to code (maybe then, not sure now)

If PT is going to be left in I rather not let the pressing L/R to let you decide which pokemon can spawn next. That means you only need to learn 2 out of the 3 and also beats the purpose of using all 3. People are forced to change thus forced to learn the all 3 pokemon. By leaving the spawn sequence alone, people are playing with a challenge they brought upon themselves. If X character is good against 1 of the 3, they could simply avoid that one pokemon and just use the other 2 which PT isn't about. Just saying.

 

[UltiMario]

I like being able to use Squirtle by himself

D:

 

[humble]

From my understanding, PT will operate like this:
There will be both individual pokemon, and the pokemon trainer.
There will be no fatigue, and forced switching is the same as always.

Really, there is no need to nerf PT, he nerfs himself, generally at least one of the pokemon will have a bad matchup, if not all of them.

 

[pwned-by-the-poob]

Umm, i have a small recommendation that i haven't heard anyone mention. How about allowing peach to bounce off walls with her side-b?

 

[camelot]

From my understanding, PT will operate like this:
There will be both individual pokemon, and the pokemon trainer.
There will be no fatigue, and forced switching is the same as always.

Really, there is no need to nerf PT, he nerfs himself, generally at least one of the pokemon will have a bad matchup, if not all of them.

Pretty much this.

In Brawl+, I see a lot more people using individual Pokemon anyway, because the forced switching can really hurt. If you try to switch, you waste time, giving your opponent the chance to charge up an attack or get into a more advantageous position. The safest time to switch is when your opponent is recovering, but then you give up the chance to edgeguard. This is how I see it, anyway.

Also, the fire weakness/resistance really needs to go. It's stupid how much of a difference it makes.

For example (I just tested this): Mario, with 100 weight, dies from Captain Falcon's uncharged fsmash, with no DI, from the middle of FD, when hit at 87%. Ivysaur, with 100 weight, dies in the same situation at 75%. Squirtle, with 75 weight, dies at 86%. G&W, with 75 weight, dies at 74%.

So basically, Ivysaur when hit by fire is almost as light as G&W (or Squirtle non-fire), and Squirtle when hit by fire is almost as heavy as Mario (or Ivysaur non-fire). Don't forget that an increase in knockback means an increase in hitstun, too.