Project Mewtwo

[bobson]

Why no gliding?
I was always wondering why Peach can do this and Mewtwo can´t.

Because Mewtwo is not Peach.
We are adding Mewtwo into Brawl, not totally remaking him. He doesn't need random gimmicks like that; I'd be against changing Confusion if it weren't for it being likely impossible to reimplement.

 

[codfish92]

plus peach floats, she doesn't glide. Pit, MK, and Charizard glide

 

[colored blind]

Gliding isn't in keeping with Mewtwo's character or essence as he was in Melee. Changing a move is different than changing what is otherwise a universal game mechanic.

*Shrug*

If people don't like this topic, at least some decent ideas can come out of it. And like bobson said, with Project SA coming out soon, a fair amount of this will be possible. Besides, before even working on the technical part of it, you need a substantial amount of brainstorming among different people for it to work and be relatively balanced. And if this goes nowhere then...It'll probably just stay in this topic and you can ignore it. And if someone decides to make a Mewtwo, then they can decide to look to this for inspiration. Or not. Whatever. This isn't one guy's fangasm (though the OP does kinda look like that). It's a bunch of people bouncing ideas back and forth.

But I do agree that when PSA is released, whoever starts the hardcore work on this subject gets to decide the direction of Mewtwo, with input from the community.

I don't think anyone with a brain wants Teleport to do damage, go that distance, AND not go into freefall. I think most people are thinking similar to Zelda's mechanics, but no damage, no freefall, and maybe even a slightly shorter range.

 

[jalued]

Gliding isn't in keeping with Mewtwo's character or essence as he was in Melee. Changing a move is different than changing what is otherwise a universal game mechanic.

*Shrug*

If people don't like this topic, at least some decent ideas can come out of it. And like bobson said, with Project SA coming out soon, a fair amount of this will be possible. Besides, before even working on the technical part of it, you need a substantial amount of brainstorming among different people for it to work and be relatively balanced. And if this goes nowhere then...It'll probably just stay in this topic and you can ignore it. And if someone decides to make a Mewtwo, then they can decide to look to this for inspiration. Or not. Whatever. This isn't one guy's fangasm (though the OP does kinda look like that). It's a bunch of people bouncing ideas back and forth.

But I do agree that when PSA is released, whoever starts the hardcore work on this subject gets to decide the direction of Mewtwo, with input from the community.

I don't think anyone with a brain wants Teleport to do damage, go that distance, AND not go into freefall. I think most people are thinking similar to Zelda's mechanics, but no damage, no freefall, and maybe even a slightly shorter range.

his upB should only be like zeldas in respect to the teleporting. both the beggining and end should have no hitboxes, and maybe go into freefall/or not depending on how it is recreated. however if the endlag was minimal for his upB, and the teleport was pretty rapid( as it was in melee), then no freefall after would make more sense

oh and it should only go half or less the distance of zelda's obviously

 

[Steelia]

Hum. Certainly sounds... interesting.

I wish you luck with this project, and those involved/supporting.

 

[Shadic]

and just about any other time somebody made a list... you know, not any place anybody would notice. you want more? because there's a **** load more lists that list zelda's up b.

You're twisting "Have Mewtwo's Up-B be similar to Zelda's" to "MAKE IT RECOVER JUST AS WELL, NURRHHH"

It's dishonest, if nothing else.

 

[FrozenHobo]

You're twisting "Have Mewtwo's Up-B be similar to Zelda's" to "MAKE IT RECOVER JUST AS WELL, NURRHHH"

It's dishonest, if nothing else.

i'm just basing my information off of what i've seen in this topic, which has thus been everyone listing zelda's up b as his form of recovery. i didn't read anyone saying 'modified zelda's recovery' or 'zelda's recovery, but changed'. just 'Zelda's up b'. its not dishonest when i'm only repeating whats been said already.

edit: i'm just gonna leave this project to die on its own now. you can respond and ***** at me all you want, but i'm not going to see it.

*unsubscribes*

 

[Shadic]

You know, you usually seem like a reasonable person. I have no idea why you're freaking out over an idea conglomeration and then running off when common sense is thrown your way.

I mean, for crying out loud, all this is is people throwing ideas out there to see what is similar to Mewtwo's old moves. Apparently it's obvious to everybody else, except for you. The reason why? Probably because you made up your mind before you looked at this topic, and refuse to let some (admittedly unorganized) discussion be, without you complaining.

As I mentioned before - Brawl+ originally had Melee Airdodging and L-Canceling. If somebody were to look at the project now and criticize it based on what had been suggested for it in the past (And in this case, even implemented), you'd think they were being morons, would you not? Just like here - Don't take every idea into equal consideration, I'm certainly not.

That said, it's hard to really be able to tell what we can do until we get Project SA.

 

[bobson]

Here's an idea: switch Disable to forward B and make down B Earthquake. It'd either A) shake the screen and hit everyone on the ground in a decent radius a la Donkey Kong's hand slap (although I'm seeing it more as a kill move), or, if we want to be more original, B) have the same effect as hitting a POW block in the Mario Bros. stage, but do damage at closer range.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Can Mewtwo even learn Earthquake?

And EQ doesn't suit his character at all. TERRIBLE idea IMO

 

[colored blind]

He can learn it, but it's not among his fitting or signature moves.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Yeah, it wouldn't suit his character at all. If anyone in brawl+ or the next game should learn EQ, it should be Garchomp as a character/pokeball.

 

[bobson]

I don't see how it isn't fitting to his character; it's not like he stomps around to do it. He simply floats as he psychokinetically forces the Earth to move under him.

None of the moves he has in Melee are really "signature moves," except maybe Confusion at really low level (and we're replacing that). Hell, he can't even actually learn Teleport.

 

[jokey665]

Hell, he can't even actually learn Teleport.

Oh? Mewtwo learns Teleport from TM30 in R/B/Y.

 

[CountKaiser]

Then let's give him a signature move, like barrier or psychic.

People wouldn't associate earthquake with M2 because EQ is a powerful ground type physical move, while M2 is normally seen as a special sweeper, at least I see him as such.

It's because of this that I don't approve of psycho cutter.

 

[Strong Badam]

give him ice beam, psychic, shadow ball, and recover.

 

[Wavedash Master]

What I don't understand is why you take a position you are not fit to fill. I believe in due time people will take it upon themselves to implement Mewtwo but this topic is arrogant and out of whack. This is not a project. This is speculation. Instead of treating it like that you are assuming the position of a leader when you are blind to how this will be done. Take it easy you aren't the only one who wants Mewtwo in the game and I would leave up to the people who know their way around computers to accomplish it.

Do you know how Brawl+ started? It was merely one thread with listing "competitive" codes which was created around September. All the thread creator (I won't be saying names) did was discuss what would make Brawl a better game (in their eyes) and asked politely from people who had a USB gecko (and knew how to operate it) to make these codes. One person took the time to organize everybodys' contribution to the project and it grew. Pretty soon, he began to make "official" codesets that would be used universally. He made Brawl+ thrive in the first place. Even though that thread creator didn't have any abilities to make codes, he put together the whole shabang.

Basically what I'm saying is this thread is merely here to start and organize this project, whether you think I should take the position or not.

 

[Volkner582]

Then let's give him a signature move, like barrier or psychic.

People wouldn't associate earthquake with M2 because EQ is a powerful ground type physical move, while M2 is normally seen as a special sweeper, at least I see him as such.

It's because of this that I don't approve of psycho cutter.

Barrier is actually a good idea. Would it reflect projectiles?

 

[phate]

Well good luck organizing something you have little control over. But I guess you are up for it. I apologize for being rude but I really was disappointed in 95% of this thread. I hope this goes smoothly but I'm still skeptical.

While I'm here I imagine I could put my thoughts in. Mewtwo's teleport doesn't need to be tweaked from melee at all. Especially the lag. It had extremely minimal lag in melee considering you used it correctly. And yes, it could be used for offensive play too. The no freefall no lag teleport suggested all over this thread is ridiculous. That would give Mewtwo an unfair approach.

And I imagine you could tweak G&W's throw for Mewtwo's old side-b? G&W's down throw has similar properties and it goes through shields like the side-b did in melee.

 

[The Immortal Sir NZ]

While I'm here I imagine I could put my thoughts in. Mewtwo's teleport doesn't need to be tweaked from melee at all. Especially the lag. It had extremely minimal lag in melee considering you used it correctly. And yes, it could be used for offensive play too. The no freefall no lag teleport suggested all over this thread is ridiculous. That would give Mewtwo an unfair approach.

Then how should he approach? with projectiles? Everyone's saying that they don't M2 to be a projectile-reliant character. So I guess it would fit for those that are forced to approach like DK or Wario.

But what about against say, Falco? Should we just let M2 sit back and have a projectile war with those that do have projectiles? Because he'll always lose that one, unless we plan on reducing lag on SB. M2 needs a legitimate approach one way or the other, so unless you have any better ideas, no freefall teleport would be the best option.

 

[CountKaiser]

Barrier would stop these projectile woes. >.>

 

[phate]

Then how should he approach? with projectiles? Everyone's saying that they don't M2 to be a projectile-reliant character. So I guess it would fit for those that are forced to approach like DK or Wario.

But what about against say, Falco? Should we just let M2 sit back and have a projectile war with those that do have projectiles? Because he'll always lose that one, unless we plan on reducing lag on SB. M2 needs a legitimate approach one way or the other, so unless you have any better ideas, no freefall teleport would be the best option.

Have you ever played Super Smash Bros? Teleporting without freefall would be an overpowered approach. Falco could laser spam more efficiently in melee and somehow Mewtwo had a chance to win without t3h uber ninja tele. Maybe to balance the game we should give everyone with bad approaches teleporting. I mean its only fair. Most characters have a hard time approaching Falco anyway I don't see your logic. What you're really saying is "Well what if Mewtwo has any sort of difficulty dealing with X character?" Ever heard of a bad matchup?

 

[CountKaiser]

Perhaps we should define Mewtwo's weakness right here and now, before we go into what special treatment he should get.

 

[The Immortal Sir NZ]

Have you ever played Super Smash Bros? Teleporting without freefall would be an overpowered approach. Falco could laser spam more efficiently in melee and somehow Mewtwo had a chance to win without t3h uber ninja tele. Maybe to balance the game we should give everyone with bad approaches teleporting. I mean its only fair. Most characters have a hard time approaching Falco anyway I don't see your logic. What you're really saying is "Well what if Mewtwo has any sort of difficulty dealing with X character?" Ever heard of a bad matchup?

Have YOU ever played Melee? M2 had almost no way to approach with out some sort of mindgame of shadowball trick, and maybe the occasional teleport crossup. Falco ***** M2 in Melee, because of lasers (like everyone else, so I see your point there) and because of plenty of other reasons, like lack of a fast defensive options and low priority. In my mind, the matchup is something like 80-20 Falco, so yes bad matchup, he had little or no chance to win. But what about Marth, Fox, Shiek, Falcon, Jiggs, ICs, Peach, Ganon, Doc, Link, YL, and plenty of other characters. He needs some sort of approach that will work a lot of the time.

But I think Kaiser's right, we need to determine what kind of character M2 will be and what weaknesses he's going to have, because all we are doing right now is saying: "Well let's make him a disorienting super ninja that will pwn N00bs!" That's a bit too general. Do we want him to be floaty light character like in Melee, but buff up his moves to offset this? Do we want him to be campable? All we have down right now is the good recovery.

 

[codfish92]

Have you ever played Super Smash Bros? Teleporting without freefall would be an overpowered approach. Falco could laser spam more efficiently in melee and somehow Mewtwo had a chance to win without t3h uber ninja tele. Maybe to balance the game we should give everyone with bad approaches teleporting. I mean its only fair. Most characters have a hard time approaching Falco anyway I don't see your logic. What you're really saying is "Well what if Mewtwo has any sort of difficulty dealing with X character?" Ever heard of a bad matchup?

i concur, a teleport with no freefall would mean that he could recover from any distance and his approach game would be equal to if not better than sonic's. if there is gonna be a teleport, it should at least have a freefall. and mew2 could approach falco like ever other person that has to approach falco, roll dodges, jumps, air dodges the whole works. he doesn't have to have a no freefall teleport to approach falco. it would just make easier for him, way too easy.

 

[The Immortal Sir NZ]

i concur, a teleport with no freefall would mean that he could recover from any distance and his approach game would be equal to if not better than sonic's. if there is gonna be a teleport, it should at least have a freefall. and mew2 could approach falco like ever other person that has to approach falco, roll dodges, jumps, air dodges the whole works. he doesn't have to have a no freefall teleport to approach falco. it would just make easier for him, way too easy.

We're trying to say a grounded teleport would have no freefall, not an aerial one (but I'm not quite sure how we would get that in there) so if we can't get that in there, yes it would mean a broken recovery and we can't do it.

And would the falco just keep on lasering like an idiot when you got close? no! He would either run away and keep spamming, or he would punish you out of your dodge.

 

[CountKaiser]

Once again, before we discuss special stuff, let's discuss what mewtwo should be.

It's agreed upon that Mewtwo will be floaty, with a Mother boy double jump. Should he be light like in melee, or heavy?

What will mewtwo excel at? What will be his weakness? Will he be good at comboing, pressure, defense, recovery, or what? Will he be comboed easily? Will he be easy to gimp?

We have to establish these things before we can talk about stuff such as no freefall UpB and such.

From what has been said, Mewtwo will rely on disoreintation and generally confusing the opponent. This leaves me to believe that a good M2 player will keep their opponent guessing as to what they will do next, and that M2 will most likely have several options at his disposal at any one time.

Those are my thoughts, anyone else?

 

[Rykoshet]

You're twisting "Have Mewtwo's Up-B be similar to Zelda's" to MAKE IT RECOVER JUST AS POORLY, NURRHHH

Fixed, ****sux.

 

[phate]

Have YOU ever played Melee? M2 had almost no way to approach with out some sort of mindgame of shadowball trick, and maybe the occasional teleport crossup. Falco ***** M2 in Melee, because of lasers (like everyone else, so I see your point there) and because of plenty of other reasons, like lack of a fast defensive options and low priority. In my mind, the matchup is something like 80-20 Falco, so yes bad matchup, he had little or no chance to win. But what about Marth, Fox, Shiek, Falcon, Jiggs, ICs, Peach, Ganon, Doc, Link, YL, and plenty of other characters. He needs some sort of approach that will work a lot of the time.

But I think Kaiser's right, we need to determine what kind of character M2 will be and what weaknesses he's going to have, because all we are doing right now is saying: "Well let's make him a disorienting super ninja that will pwn N00bs!" That's a bit too general. Do we want him to be floaty light character like in Melee, but buff up his moves to offset this? Do we want him to be campable? All we have down right now is the good recovery.

Wow I wasn't really clear in my last post sorry. Yeah I know Falco ***** Mewtwo in melee. He ***** a lot of people. My point is there are probably other routes to go than giving him some new element like teleporting with no freefall. There are a lot of characters that have a tough time approaching Falco. That's why Falco was/is/probably always will be good. Mewtwo had a ton of problems in melee. I think tweaking those would be the first step. Like maybe change his killing potential or weight or size or sidestep or priority or speed or range or lag on his attacks or combo potential or floatiness or traction. I think that this teleport idea is taking it a little too far.

In short I believe Mewtwo should be as close to melee as possible with MINOR adjustments (As far as playstyle goes) to make him balanced with the rest of the characters.

 

[Sterowent]

Once again, before we discuss special stuff, let's discuss what mewtwo should be.

It's agreed upon that Mewtwo will be floaty, with a Mother boy double jump. Should he be light like in melee, or heavy?

What will mewtwo excel at? What will be his weakness? Will he be good at comboing, pressure, defense, recovery, or what? Will he be comboed easily? Will he be easy to gimp?

We have to establish these things before we can talk about stuff such as no freefall UpB and such.

From what has been said, Mewtwo will rely on disoreintation and generally confusing the opponent. This leaves me to believe that a good M2 player will keep their opponent guessing as to what they will do next, and that M2 will most likely have several options at his disposal at any one time.

Those are my thoughts, anyone else?

While i don't have anything to add to the discussion at this point, i'm quoting this.

This is the groundwork here. This is the basis for every decision made for M2, barring technical feasibility. This should be discussed thoroughly.

 

[The Immortal Sir NZ]

Once again, before we discuss special stuff, let's discuss what mewtwo should be.

It's agreed upon that Mewtwo will be floaty, with a Mother boy double jump. Should he be light like in melee, or heavy?

What will mewtwo excel at? What will be his weakness? Will he be good at comboing, pressure, defense, recovery, or what? Will he be comboed easily? Will he be easy to gimp?

We have to establish these things before we can talk about stuff such as no freefall UpB and such.

From what has been said, Mewtwo will rely on disoreintation and generally confusing the opponent. This leaves me to believe that a good M2 player will keep their opponent guessing as to what they will do next, and that M2 will most likely have several options at his disposal at any one time.

Those are my thoughts, anyone else?

I think that if M2 is going to be his light, floaty self like Melee, he needs his amazing recovery and be almost impossible to gimp...

Wow I wasn't really clear in my last post sorry. Yeah I know Falco ***** Mewtwo in melee. He ***** a lot of people. My point is there are probably other routes to go than giving him some new element like teleporting with no freefall. There are a lot of characters that have a tough time approaching Falco. That's why Falco was/is/probably always will be good. Mewtwo had a ton of problems in melee. I think tweaking those would be the first step. Like maybe change his killing potential or weight or size or sidestep or priority or speed or range or lag on his attacks or combo potential or floatiness or traction. I think that this teleport idea is taking it a little too far.

In short I believe Mewtwo should be as close to melee as possible with MINOR adjustments (As far as playstyle goes) to make him balanced with the rest of the characters.

but in addition, he will need plenty of adjustments to his moves to give him more approach options, because as it stands, he has a fair number of combos, just a bad approach. But you're right, no freefall teleport is a big buff that really should be considered carefully before we go giving him some kind of game-changer like that.

 

[homsar]

Have we considered making him a character designed to bait the opponent into attacking then use the disorienting tactics to set up a combo once the opponent goes for it? This would, IMO, solve the approach issue because he wouldn't need a strong one.

I have always thought of mewtwo as a patient character (in terms of play style) waiting for the right moment to strike, due to his disorienting ways.

 

[Shadic]

I think everybody is making No-Freefall Teleport out to be a bigger deal than it is. Imagine Zelda's teleport, but letting her attack and whatnot afterward.. Is it that big of a deal? It's certainly a buff, but I think it's no game-changer.

 

[Wavedash Master]

Sorry to interrupt, but I have a couple of things say. Recent feedback has lead me to reconsider my position in this "project". I should not be oranizing any thing that has to do with the implementation of Mewtwo (this is asking for a massive overhaul of the first post, which I will do). However, this will continue to be a Mewtwo moveset discussion thread (so continue on with the teleport talk). I'm thinking about having the setup for his moves on the first page to be very specific. Meaning each move will have frame data (frames of start up lag, frames at which hitbox comes out, frames of ending lag etc.), a blunt description of what the purpose of the move is and its disadvantages, and many other detailed information. When this is done, someone who knows what he/she is doing as far as implementation goes can make good use of this thread, so that person doesn't have to plan out Mewtwo himself/herself.

Also, due to events coming up, I won't be tending to this thread as much as I was. Just giving everybody a heads up.

 

[The Immortal Sir NZ]

I think everybody is making No-Freefall Teleport out to be a bigger deal than it is. Imagine Zelda's teleport, but letting her attack and whatnot afterward.. Is it that big of a deal? It's certainly a buff, but I think it's no game-changer.

I'm just guessing that we are going to speed the move up quite significantly, to the point of where it was at when it was in Melee, so basically instantaneous, with low ending lag. Now, combine an almost instantaneous movement system with hitstun, and voila!

You get d-tilt to shadowclaw kills from 100% to somewhere around 170%.
You F-smash someone off the edge at around 50%? Well just teleport to 'em and Meteor smash them, then teleport back to recover.
Basically, he becomes a combo machine, and any move that knocks them into the air will lead to a teleport to shadowclaw kill.
Think about it for a second.

Sure, he would look sick as **** but we need to make him balanced, not an all-powerful god tier character.

 

[SuSa]

I'm just guessing that we are going to speed the move up quite significantly, to the point of where it was at when it was in Melee, so basically instantaneous, with low ending lag. Now, combine an almost instantaneous movement system with hitstun, and voila!

You get d-tilt to shadowclaw kills from 100% to somewhere around 170%.
You F-smash someone off the edge at around 50%? Well just teleport to 'em and Meteor smash them, then teleport back to recover.
Basically, he becomes a combo machine, and any move that knocks them into the air will lead to a teleport to shadowclaw kill.
Think about it for a second.

Sure, he would look sick as **** but we need to make him balanced, not an all-powerful god tier character.

How does he teleport back? You do realize Sonic/snake cannot use their up-B after using it but do not go into freefall either... it's sort of an in-between.

I think you are misunderstanding what they mean by lack of freefall..

 

[jokey665]

How does he teleport back? You do realize Sonic/snake cannot use their up-B after using it but do not go into freefall either... it's sort of an in-between.

I think you are misunderstanding what they mean by lack of freefall..

*coughlucariocough*

incase you're not quite aware, lucario can currently up-b from the ground and then up-b again without landing.

 

[bobson]

Oh? Mewtwo learns Teleport from TM30 in R/B/Y.

Only in first-gen. Every game after that hasn't had the TM for it.

People wouldn't associate earthquake with M2 because EQ is a powerful ground type physical move, while M2 is normally seen as a special sweeper, at least I see him as such.

It's because of this that I don't approve of psycho cutter.

Good point. I still think it could fit if done correctly, but a more iconic move would be optimal.

Going through his non-TM moveset, though, there's not much we can do with it; a lot of them are status effects that wouldn't work well in Brawl. Confusion and Disable are already out, and any way we try to work Psychic in would require some weird liberties. Barrier and Recover have a lot of potential, Barrier in particular. Future Sight and Me First could be amazing mind**** moves, but programming them would be horrible, and Psycho Cut has limited implementations. I was also thinking that we could keep Confusion, but make it do something different, like warp the opponent behind Mewtwo or somesuch.


Mewtwo should definitely be floaty, but I'm thinking his size and weight lend themselves more to him being a heavy or at least a mid-weight. Something like Samus or Yoshi's weight. Given his size, this will likely make him open to combos, which would mean he's better off on the defensive (but everyone in Brawl is, really). I'm seeing him as a character that's kind of like Ganondorf; he's not great on an all-out offensive, and he has to remain patient through a lot of the match, but he's full of tricks and once he gets inside your head, you get ruined.

RE:Teleport shenanigans: The lag after using it can easily be modified so that it isn't overpowered, but still useful. It's not necessarily as gamebreaking as you're making it out to be.

incase you're not quite aware, lucario can currently up-b from the ground and then up-b again without landing.

Not in vBrawl.

 

[...:::VILE:::...]

*coughlucariocough*

incase you're not quite aware, lucario can currently up-b from the ground and then up-b again without landing.

But IIRC, he can only do upB > jump > upB.

 

[cookieM0Nster]

Has this been worked on AT ALL?