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Proof that Sakurai *is* in touch with his franchise...(New Interview w/ Sakurai)

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Johnknight1

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The sole issue I have with Melee (which I loved and spent many many hours playing, just like the rest of the series) is that if a casual player wishes to become competitive, they face a very large cliff of minimum technical skill they must climb before standing a chance. No mastery of the basics will grant access to competitive skill, you must become adept at the advanced techniques to stand a faint chance. That's what Sakurai has addressed by making the game less technical, and aye, even by making the game slower (longer execution windows make things easier to do). While Brawl's masterable techniques and options didn't lead to as many diverse options or aggressive play as mastering Melee's did, they were more manageable, and thus it was easier to become decent at Brawl (but no easier to haphazardly beat a better player). Smash 4 is aiming to hit between those, offering a high skill ceiling through character mechanics and some less-technical-more-manageable advanced techniques, while offering a low skill floor with a moderate game pace and very few particularly tricky mechanics (Luma being the notable exception, and hopefully offering great reward in exchange).
Brawl takes wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more to get into competitively. Nothing takes forever like learning how to always camp, always defend, poke a bit, and rarely go for hard reads. Brawl's strategies and specific techniques and data take as much if not more time to get used to and adjust to. Brawl's knowledge and data difference is a lot bigger divide than any technical barrier Melee provided in the casual vs. competitive player divide.

Besides that, it isn't too hard to get good at Smash games. It just takes a while. Just be willing to accept it will take time. Then, find good players, go to smash fests and tournaments (they are both very different, and both are literally the definition of "parties", because, again, smash is a "party game", which yes, is Sakurai's definition and I am 100% okay with), hang out, learn, learn how to get better from loses, and then you'll improve.
 

Snakeyes

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No, Sakurai, you still don't get it - for most of us, it's got very little to do with extreme speed or complicated inputs. The main reasons why Melee is so enjoyable are the physics, options and responsiveness. It's sad that he still doesn't have a clue over ten years after the game's release.
 

Johnknight1

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This, at least, looks to me like he's finally apologizing for trying to dumb down Smash too much. I don't see a point in trying to interpret hostility where there may no longer be any.
The only "mistake" Sakurai has ever made according to him with Smash is Melee being "too hard". Not even random tripping being a thing (something barely anyone likes), not planking being a thing, not Meta Knight in Brawl being broken and making half the cast irrelevant, and definitely not the SSE taking up over 60% of everything in Brawl and wasting everyone's time making it.

Seriously, he hasn't even apologized for the SSE. He hasn't even said it was bad. He just said he can't make it "because of the cut scenes."
If he more directly said "I wanted the game to be noncompetitive", that would be one thing, but making a game "not all about competitive play" simply means that there is more to a game than competing, which is what any non-niche designer should be about.
The problem is Sakurai has previously stated that competitive play isn't what people should do. He also specifically made Brawl to not be competitive.
 

'V'

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Melee's controls were exactly the same as Brawl's, so I don't see how Melee was made to be more "hardcore" when it appealed to both casual and competitive players alike. Casuals hardly know the difference between the 2 ways to play. They just see different Nintendo characters beating the crap out of each other. Sakurai's reasoning is dumb.
 

TheMastermind

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Just because someone filled him in on what's been going on doesn't mean he's not an idiot. Worst game designer I've ever seen. He doesn't know that making a game for competitive players actually increases the number of casual players. You never need to sacrifice anything. You only need to do more work and be a better game designer to make a game that all players enjoy.
 

Johnknight1

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No, Sakurai, you still don't get it - for most of us, it's got very little to do with extreme speed or complicated inputs. The main reasons why Melee is so enjoyable are the physics, options and responsiveness. It's sad that he still doesn't have a clue over ten years after the game's release.
This is exactly what needed to be said.

Melee is enjoyed because it's exciting to play. I still get hyped to play Melee as if it's brand new and open to explore. I say this and I first played it when it wasn't even out yet and it was a demo almost 3 years ago. The fact it feels so exciting to play and there's so many small things you can do that become huge things is just incredible, especially since the game flow, pace, and overall schematic balance is just incredible.

===

Honestly, I feel like a lot of what was right with 64 and Melee wasn't Sakurai's doing. It was the HAL team that probably did a lot of good. It might not be a coincidence that the Kirby franchise is better than ever without Sakurai's involvement than it ever was with Sakurai's involvement.

Besides that, Melee wasn't Sakurai's creation, it was the entire team's creation. We can't just say this one guy made everything ever.
 
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Kamikazek

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Brawl has a bigger skill gap than Melee, because Brawl has so much micro knowledge that you have to know to even keep a match close. You had to know so much more things in Brawl to even compete, namely chain grabs, combos, hitstun manipulation, edge hogging, planking, stalling, and general abuse of Brawl's physics and the unintended features of it.

Brawl also requires a lot more conditioning than Melee in that casual players naturally YOLO and go super offensive, and Brawl is all about camping and poking, and it requires a ton of conditioning to "play as lame as possible" as multiple former top Brawl players used to tell me (and I refused to adapt to).
(Note: of course, I'm not a competitive level player, I'm just a good casual. If I was competitive level it wouldn't matter which game we're playing as Brawl really only closes the skill gap for lower level play).
You're talking about stuff that's waaaaaaay beyond the level of what I'm talking about. Yes, competitive Brawl vs. Casual Brawl obviously has a HUGE skill gap, and there are big skill gaps within different level's of competitive Brawl. But within the scope of very casual play Brawl doesn't have nearly the degree of skill gaps that Melee has. I'm not a competitive level player, and I put almost zero thought into how I actually play Smash Bros., I operate almost entirely on reflexes. Yet if I play someone who doesn't play as much Melee as me, I can five stock them, consistently. I can't do that with Brawl, If you want to dominate someone in Brawl you have to really know what you're doing. In Melee someone who has a slight idea what they're doing can dominate someone who has slightly less of an idea of what they're doing.

===

Besides all that, Smash is so much easier to pick up than any other fighting game. You don't need to know button combinations for special attacks. You just push A or B, possibly in one of four directions, or push L/R to shield, Y/X/up on the control stick to jump, or Z/L or R+A to grab.

It's all very simple. The movement being essentially a refined version of Super Mario Bros., one of the most simple but deep games ever and the most played game ever, makes it one of the most accessible games possible. It also naturally is competitive since it doesn't take away control of the character from the player (sans random tripping).
Was this aimed at me? I don't disagree with anything in this statement. Smash is very easy to pick up and play. That doesn't mean it doesn't have skill gap problems.

Why would that skill gap matter to people if they don't face competitive players=???

That's a m00t point. Me being able to land a super crazy combo doesn't make the game automatically less fun for someone completely unaware of these kind of combos.
If there was a skill gap between completive players and casual players and the competitive players don't play the casual players, of course it doesn't matter. And of course there is going to be a gap between casual and competitive players. I didn't say anything opposing that idea at all. I'm saying there's a problem when there's a skill gap between casual players and other casual players who do play each other.

I think you missed the point of what I was saying. You're talking about competitive vs. casual. I'm talking about things strictly within casual play.

Well duh. Each person only speaks for themselves. Children can understand that (but Fox News can't).
It's something that's ignored more than you'd think.

Edit:Ahhhhhh quotes what are you doing! @_@[/quote]
 
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Dcas

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The only "mistake" Sakurai has ever made according to him with Smash is Melee being "too hard". Not even random tripping being a thing (something barely anyone likes), not planking being a thing, not Meta Knight in Brawl being broken and making half the cast irrelevant, and definitely not the SSE taking up over 60% of everything in Brawl and wasting everyone's time making it.

Seriously, he hasn't even apologized for the SSE. He hasn't even said it was bad. He just said he can't make it "because of the cut scenes."

The problem is Sakurai has previously stated that competitive play isn't what people should do. He also specifically made Brawl to not be competitive.
Hello, long time reader but new to the posting thing.

Well from what i've observed in this particular forum is no matter how well argumented is your opinion no one, absolutely no one will listen/ change his opinion so even if the discussion drags some sparks of a mature and good discussion it always end with someone defending that competitive gameplay is for minorities or that casual gameplay is for noobs. Also another problem is the discussion of incredibly irrelevant topics created, sure its ok to speculate "who is going to be your main" or "what mode will you play withing the game with your friends" but there should be an exclusive social post/ section for that, after all it's part of the community needs.

But i guess that will stop happening once the game is released so the forum gets back on track on a more "serious" game analysis, discussion, etc.

That being said as so many people already stated is that with passing years it's been confirmed that they've been giving Sakurai more and more "power" as to what smash means and how it plays. This is a reflection of Nintendo's ideology of approaching more to casual markets, some people nailed saying that smash n64/melee was more of a collective and Sakurai being part of it rather than Sakurai directing a whole collective.
 

Big-Cat

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When did playing multiple games make you "better"=??? You don't have to adapt to another game if you don't want to.
You'd be surprised actually. Most players that play different fighters are actually some of the better players.
 

Johnknight1

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You'd be surprised actually. Most players that play different fighters are actually some of the better players.
I was more referring to "better" as in "happier" or "more of a fan of fighting games/smash bros games", but eh...

...smash really isn't anything like a lot of fighting games. I mean, it is, but the parts of those fighting games are just a small part of Smash, given Smash's whole scale.
 

HeavyLobster

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Nothing really seems to have changed with respect to Sakurai's views on Smash. There's not really any point in going through the same old back and forth that happens whenever Sakurai says anything. I am curious to see just how much "dynamism" Smash 4 has.
 

DaDavid

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Yup, the way he phrases his thought process might not make everybody agree with him (I doubt he intended to) but I don't see how anybody can read that and not understand him.
 

Big-Cat

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I was more referring to "better" as in "happier" or "more of a fan of fighting games/smash bros games", but eh...

...smash really isn't anything like a lot of fighting games. I mean, it is, but the parts of those fighting games are just a small part of Smash, given Smash's whole scale.
Again, you'd be surprised. I went from Tekken to Street Fighter for a little bit and my fundamentals were much better in Street Fighter than they had been in before.

The transfer of skills is usually subtle.
 

Conda

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The only "mistake" Sakurai has ever made according to him with Smash is Melee being "too hard". Not even random tripping being a thing (something barely anyone likes), not planking being a thing, not Meta Knight in Brawl being broken and making half the cast irrelevant, and definitely not the SSE taking up over 60% of everything in Brawl and wasting everyone's time making it.

Seriously, he hasn't even apologized for the SSE. He hasn't even said it was bad. He just said he can't make it "because of the cut scenes."

The problem is Sakurai has previously stated that competitive play isn't what people should do. He also specifically made Brawl to not be competitive.
To be fair, those were past statements and he's clearly evolved on the topic of competitive play. The interview with him about one year ago where he speaks of his experience playing Street Fighter competitively and such, and understanding/respecting the competitive allure of fighting games.
 
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Ogre_Deity_Link

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Jaysus, there's just no pleasing some of you people. I think some of you people won't be happy unless Sakurai outright says he's created a game that was built 100% for competitive players, innit? He tries to make balance, and some of you just can't accept that and say he's not trying hard enough. How far does he have to cater to the competitive side of things before it's considered, "fair?"

I know what you complainers want, and I'm not sorry to say that you won't be getting it.
 

TeaTwoTime

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Sakurai is saying that his intention is to lower the technical skill barrier for less proficient players to reach the level of more proficient players. He even mentioned that he is not going out of his way to cater to novice gamers, like was done in Brawl.

I just don't see the issue. It is really obvious that he is catering to both competitive players and casual players that want to improve.
 
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Raijinken

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Brawl takes wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more to get into competitively. Nothing takes forever like learning how to always camp, always defend, poke a bit, and rarely go for hard reads. Brawl's strategies and specific techniques and data take as much if not more time to get used to and adjust to. Brawl's knowledge and data difference is a lot bigger divide than any technical barrier Melee provided in the casual vs. competitive player divide.

Besides that, it isn't too hard to get good at Smash games. It just takes a while. Just be willing to accept it will take time. Then, find good players, go to smash fests and tournaments (they are both very different, and both are literally the definition of "parties", because, again, smash is a "party game", which yes, is Sakurai's definition and I am 100% okay with), hang out, learn, learn how to get better from loses, and then you'll improve.
One thing I hope for in Smash4 is that the online, or CPUs, or both, will be significantly improved. I live in NC, our Smash scene is virtually nonexistant to my knowledge, and I at least don't have the disposable income to travel much just to play with new people. Thus, all of my learning was my brother and I practicing against each other (and occasionally the less-good friend would come over to play), and we eventually both hit the technical wall of not even knowing advanced techniques existed (We never once thought dodging into the ground would yield a result, or that there was a reason to hit shield before landing mid-attack). Once we bothered going online and learned that Wavedashing and L-canceling even existed, we saw no application for Wavedashing, and since most of our play even in Melee was based on reading each other, L-canceling was scarcely needed. Sure, this wasn't strictly an issue of technical wall, but the fact that the only advanced technique we could even discern on our own was meteor canceling (which we figured was either "press the move RIGHT when you're hit" or just CPUs cheating until we occasionally pulled off via mashing) kinda gave me a bitter feeling against "hidden" advanced techniques as a whole.

I don't argue that it shouldn't take time to get good at a game, and Smash is definitely one of the quicker ones to learn. But I feel like it should be learnable by anyone, and while it's unlikely that people these days are playing blind to the internet, I feel like it should still be possible to learn the vast majority of techniques just by playing. If they're easier to do, it opens up that learning ability to more people (Even knowing about wavedashing or L-canceling wouldn't remotely hint at the existence of Samus's superdash thing, for instance). That sort of thing is what Smash4 looks like it's going towards. Depth without unneeded complexity of control, instead offering complexity through the character-unique mechanics.

And more to your point about Brawl's competitive ceiling: That always felt like attainable improvement, to me, because I'm much better at playing smart and safe and knowing and reading options rather than being quick at inputs. So, while Brawl may have required "more" to get competitive with, I at least felt like each extra thing was more attainable at a regular pace (and/or just by playing more) than advanced techniques that take me (personally) specific focused rehearsal to get once, much less to pull off usefully in a fight against a thinking opponent.
 
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Dcas

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Sakurai is saying that his intention is to lower the technical skill barrier for less proficient players to reach the level of more proficient players. He even mentioned that he is not going out of his way to cater to novice gamers, like was done in Brawl.

I just don't see the issue. It is really obvious that he is catering to both competitive players and casual players that want to improve.
How can you say its "obvious"? Hopefully you are talking about his statement and not by the game itself.

Everything we say for now is mere speculation, nothing more. When the game releases we can jump to such conclusions.
 

Jaedrik

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The sole issue I have with Melee (which I loved and spent many many hours playing, just like the rest of the series) is that if a casual player wishes to become competitive, they face a very large cliff of minimum technical skill they must climb before standing a chance. No mastery of the basics will grant access to competitive skill, you must become adept at the advanced techniques to stand a faint chance.

That's what Sakurai has addressed by making the game less technical, and aye, even by making the game slower (longer execution windows make things easier to do). While Brawl's masterable techniques and options didn't lead to as many diverse options or aggressive play as mastering Melee's did, they were more manageable, and thus it was easier to become decent at Brawl (but no easier to haphazardly beat a better player).

Smash 4 is aiming to hit between those, offering a high skill ceiling through character mechanics and some less-technical-more-manageable advanced techniques, while offering a low skill floor with a moderate game pace and very few particularly tricky mechanics (Luma being the notable exception, and hopefully offering great reward in exchange).
One does not simply become competitive. As I have said, competitive and casual is a false dichotomy. It is a sliding scale with indistinct (Edit: whoops, I believe that element of the thesis was not in accord with the rest of the post) boundaries and goals. We must refer to so many abstract notions such as skill ceiling, curves, make vague and imprecise graphs to visualize what we mean, and so on.
I do understand this sentiment, though. It hinges on placing a high desirability on equality. Equality certainly may be important, but in what context is it important, and why? I challenge you to articulate that, sir, as will I.

What would motivate a casual player to improve himself? Presumably, a desire to defeat superior opponents, or to improve himself. Yet, in that very statement we see that equality is an irreconcilable sentiment to competition, for without inequality there would be no superior opponent.
For the sake of improvement, one must measure himself to the inequality.
One must acknowledge the inequality. It is inevitable.

The higher the skill ceiling of a game, generally, the larger the gaps between levels of players.
The lower the skill ceiling of a game, generally, the smaller the gaps and the less frequently they appear.
When the scale changes, when the scope of knowledge about a game increases, ranges that were slight curves beforehand become much flatter. Whence one views what could happen, and what ought happen, compared to what does happen, the gaps become readily apparent.
In this way we say that the gap between certain players is distinct. It is clearly definable. In games with lower skill ceilings, it is more difficult for an individual, who is putting forth effort to improve himself, to actually improve himself. It is more difficult to observe what they ought improve on, what skills they should practice, what they should expand on.

Then what of the people who do not have the same level of passion to do whatever it takes to improve themselves? This is my challenge, sir. Why ought those more passionate to improve themselves be hobbled so that those who put forth less effort would for longer enjoy the fantasy that they are a decent player, where those that put forth the effort will still inevitably beat them yet without such a clear distinction of this? Surely, there is no place in noble thought for appeasing this jealousy, this arrogant baseness?

But, I ought not deride them so, 'tis cruel of me, and a generalization. Being a generalization, it is the general nature of their plight. They are not genuine in their intention to improve themselves. For, even in Brawl we had those that clearly stood above the rest, and it is inevitably so, you yourself, Raijinken, have acknowledged this. Those of less skill and effort and passion will, no matter the game, always be edged out by those who have more.

It might seem cruel, but it is the natural and inexorable implication of human action. I assure you that it is not cruel, it is noble and just that equality is not part of the natural law, for otherwise there would exist no differences among mankind at all.

If Sakurai be magnanimous, there is no other choice other than to design Smash 4 with a high skill ceiling.

Now, the only other perspective that can be taken is this: the core mechanics (the mastery of the basics, as you call it) which everything else builds off of ought not be difficult to learn.

However, if basic is an absolute term, then it cannot be set at an arbitrary percent of the various techniques of a given game. As for what other absolute it could be set at, I am confounded, since there seems none. If basic be an absolutely relative term (hon hon hon, it seems an oxymoron already!) then how can we know on any basis ever that any distinction we make is reliable in the slightest, are we not groping in the dark for illusory absolutes? There is a third way. That which is a basic skill seems relative to each level. Put another way it means the techniques and skills that clearly distinguish one level from another are the basics of that level. The more subtle things we can put aside as not as immediately integral to the upward journey of progress.

One cannot see that which they have no knowledge of. One cannot perceive or conceive of those who are of a higher skill level without the observation of them. Therefore, for those who do not observe the skill levels which are outside their limited scope are stunted in the fact that they do not know the capacity of the game, in that they have no canon, no measuring rod, no saint, no lodestar. But, those that do not observe higher skill levels are ultimately unconcerned with it, for it cannot enter into their consideration except by deliberate abstraction and intense analysis, therefore it is said that the segregation of casuals and hardcore players is both viable and admirable. It is not the sole intention of matchmaking, however. That might be a discussion for another time.

With the above two facts, it is plain that 'casual' is a subjective term. That is, the distinction between casual and hardcore is found within the observer who has for his object another player. Casual is generally those who are in the lowest known skill range. A hardcore player is to the observer generally he who is in the highest known skill range.

Then, if a high skill ceiling demands some levels be more difficult to enter in to, why is that a bad thing?

We have shown, in the above, that designing for casual and hardcore players can be done at the same time, and it is a false dichotomy to suppose that one cannot cater to both. Further, it was demonstrated that there are multiple levels of skill, each of which have their own entrance requirements.
But even after all that we might still not agree. What say you of the above?
 
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metaXzero

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Looking through this thread, I see all this talk praising Sakurai here. Guys, he's been saying this crap since before Brawl. But more importantly, how is this supposed to endear the game to non-casual players? Sakurai keeps talking about how he wants everyone to enjoy the game, yet continues to slam competitive games and Melee for being too hard. What in this interview shows that we can look forward to a happy medium in Smash 4? The removal of a mechanic that was standard in every game including Brawl? Custom moves that not even Sakurai seems completely convinced are balanced (hence them not being usable in With Anyone)?

No matter what this man says, Melee was a top seller on the Gamecube and for a while, the competitive community was barely there and mostly unknown. Casuals DID enjoy Melee. They would not have thrown a fit if Brawl was just Melee with more characters and the SSE. They don't look at Brawl and Melee see that one is faster with combos or one is slower and easier to not SD in. They see one doesn't have Sonic and Lucario in it and one has worst graphics. All of Sakurai's attempts to cater to the players who just want a fun game are just superfluous and ultimately do nothing. The guy who only rolls and F-Smashes is never going to have a close match with anyone with even half of Mew2King's skill. Not without Smash becoming pure rock paper scissors and we know Sakurai isn't THAT crazy.

This interview just confirms to me that Sakurai is the same man he's always been post-Melee. And that Smash 4 while almost certain to be an enjoyable game with plenty of unlocks and over-the-the-top multiplayer, it will not be a Melee-Brawl bridge. It will just be the final nail in the coffin of Brawl's competitive play life.
 

Road Death Wheel

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This is exactly what needed to be said.

Melee is enjoyed because it's exciting to play. I still get hyped to play Melee as if it's brand new and open to explore. I say this and I first played it when it wasn't even out yet and it was a demo almost 3 years ago. The fact it feels so exciting to play and there's so many small things you can do that become huge things is just incredible, especially since the game flow, pace, and overall schematic balance is just incredible.

===

Honestly, I feel like a lot of what was right with 64 and Melee wasn't Sakurai's doing. It was the HAL team that probably did a lot of good. It might not be a coincidence that the Kirby franchise is better than ever without Sakurai's involvement than it ever was with Sakurai's involvement.

Besides that, Melee wasn't Sakurai's creation, it was the entire team's creation. We can't just say this one guy made everything ever.
I disagree sakurai already talked about the exciting dynamics of melee combat will be in smash 4 did you read the article?
 

Dcas

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I disagree sakurai already talked about the exciting dynamics of melee combat will be in smash 4 did you read the article?
Again, speculation. Sakurai can tell us he'll include Miyamoto as a newcomer (not a mii). Till the day of release everything discussed is speculation.
 

Jaedrik

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Again, speculation. Sakurai can tell us he'll include Miyamoto as a newcomer (not a mii). Till the day of release everything discussed is speculation.
What ought we place our assurance on, then, mighty Dcas, arbiter of what constitutes proof, doubter of all?

Edit: I do believe both you and Road Death Wheel are confusing the real meaning of Sakurai's message with the literal meaning. Surely it is not so?

Edit 2: Forgive me, Dcas. Your skepticism is warranted in this case, as I agree with you, yet it is not mere speculation.
 
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Dcas

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What ought we place our assurance on, then, mighty Dcas, arbiter of what constitutes proof, doubter of all?

Edit: I do believe both you and Road Death Wheel are confusing the real meaning of Sakurai's message with the literal meaning. Surely it is not so?
Hence i asked you if you all were defending Sakurai's message or smash 4. If you are merely talking about Sakurai's message then i do have to apologize since it's pretty explicit. If you are refering to Smash 4 then it's just speculation.
 

Tristan_win

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Jaysus, there's just no pleasing some of you people. I think some of you people won't be happy unless Sakurai outright says he's created a game that was built 100% for competitive players, innit? He tries to make balance, and some of you just can't accept that and say he's not trying hard enough. How far does he have to cater to the competitive side of things before it's considered, "fair?"

I know what you complainers want, and I'm not sorry to say that you won't be getting it.
How much you ask? Well how about meeting us half way. Sakurai needs to stop trying to make smash less competitive, if he just focus on balance without items on a few somewhat normal stages then everyone would be happy. If someone wanted a whacky 'anyone can win' game then they can put items on, if someone want to test their glory in a competitive setting then turn items off. By continuing to try to level the playing field without items he's going to have to add elements of luck into smash (like tripping) or even scarier make smash have inconsistent variables that we can't predict (something akin to decay but worst)

Everyone would be happy and the game would turn out much better if he did focus most of his energy on the competitive side BUT we would be happy if he treated both sides as equals...also if he stop openly denouncing the 'hardcore' players.

Sakurai need to stop favoring one side.
 
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Dcas

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Yeah well it's not "mere" as speculating from thin air, there might be some hints here and there, some proof, sure. But what kinda tickles me is some people typing opinions as if they were the absolute and only truth, of course i know you are entitled to your opinion but i think it would be more healthy and beneficial for us as a community to actually first read what others type, investigate a bit and then counter the other's argument without dismissing what he said, so it's a more entertaining, mature and rich debate, that's all.

Back to topic, all i hope is Sakurai listened to the feedback people gave them in the events ( sdcc and e3) so smash is more appealing without even affecting the casual playstyle.
 
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DrRiceBoy

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I never bother to use advanced techs in Melee and PM (unless you count DACUS or dashdancing one), but I really like the fast paced game. I like the sound of where Sakurai is going. :D
 

Johnknight1

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One thing I hope for in Smash4 is that the online, or CPUs, or both, will be significantly improved. I live in NC, our Smash scene is virtually nonexistant to my knowledge,
If you're talking about Melee, ummm, you main Marth right=??? Well the best Melee Marth in smash currently lives in your state...

...PPMD.
 

Road Death Wheel

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How much you ask? Well how about meeting us half way. Sakurai needs to stop trying to make smash less competitive, if he just focus on balance without items on a few somewhat normal stages then everyone would be happy. If someone wanted a whacky 'anyone can win' game then they can put items on, if someone want to test their glory in a competitive setting then turn items off. By continuing to try to level the playing field without items he's going to have to add elements of luck into smash (like tripping) or even scarier make smash have inconsistent variables that we can't predict (something akin to decay but worst)

Everyone would be happy and the game would turn out much better if he did focus most of his energy on the competitive side BUT we would be happy if he treated both sides as equals...also if he stop openly denouncing the 'hardcore' players.

Sakurai need to stop favoring one side.
Sakurai said nothing about making it less competitive.( besides competitive is was the community makes it)
Hes just making sure everyone can execute the basic functions of the game how we use it will show the gaps in player skill.
 

Raijinken

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One does not simply become competitive. As I have said, competitive and casual is a false dichotomy. It is a sliding scale with indistinct boundaries and goals. We must refer to so many abstract notions such as skill ceiling, curves, make vague and imprecise graphs to visualize what we mean, and so on.
I do understand this sentiment, though. It hinges on placing a high desirability on equality. Equality certainly may be important, but in what context is it important, and why? I challenge you to articulate that, sir, as will I.

What would motivate a casual player to improve himself? Presumably, a desire to defeat superior opponents, or to improve himself. Yet, in that very statement we see that equality is an irreconcilable sentiment to competition, for without inequality there would be no superior opponent.
For the sake of improvement, one must measure himself to the inequality.
One must acknowledge the inequality, as they inevitably must.
I agree with this section completely.

The higher the skill ceiling of a game, generally, the larger the gaps between levels of players.
The lower the skill ceiling of a game, generally, the smaller the gaps and the less frequently they appear.
When the scale changes, when the scope of knowledge about a game increases, ranges that were slight curves beforehand become much flatter. Whence one views what could happen, and what ought happen, compared to what does happen, the gaps become readily apparent.
In this way we say that the gap between certain players is distinct. It is clearly definable. In games with lower skill ceilings, it is more difficult for an individual, who is putting forth effort to improve himself, to actually improve himself. It is more difficult to observe what they ought improve on, what skills they should practice, what they should expand on.
I agree with this in part. A low technical skill ceiling does not necessarily mean that there is a lack of game-deepening options, but rather that they are easier to perform consistently. If such mechanics are well designed, then the true art and show of skill will be in the application of such techniques against a human opponent. Not to say that high-technical skill abilities do not reflect skill, but they reflect skill of a different time. The sword is no good without the hand to guide it, but the hand cuts less than a blade.

Then what of the people who do not have the same level of passion to do whatever it takes to improve themselves? This is my challenge, sir. Why ought those more passionate to improve themselves be hobbled so that those who put forth less effort would for longer enjoy the fantasy that they are a decent player, where those that put forth the effort will still inevitably beat them yet without such a clear distinction of this? Surely, there is no place in noble thought for appeasing this jealousy, this arrogant baseness?

Yet, I ought not deride them so, 'tis cruel of me, and a generalization. Being a generalization, it is the general nature of their plight. They are not genuine in their intention to improve themselves. For, even in Brawl we had those that clearly stood above the rest, and it is inevitably so, you yourself, Raijinken, have acknowledged this. Those of less skill and effort and passion will, no matter the game, always be edged out by those who have more.

It might seem cruel, but it is the natural and unalterable implication of human action. I assure you that it is not cruel, it is noble and just that equality is not part of the natural law, for otherwise there would exist no differences among mankind at all.
My response to your challenge is thus: It is not that such passionate players need be artificially throttled in play, but that it is in the interest of sporting competition to enable those with a competitive mind to have an opportunity to exercise it. As you say, the superior player shall be shown, but should he be superior simply by merit of quick fingers in a game of mental acuity? It is a matter of the intent of the contest. Sir Sakurai, as the creator of the contest, is the authority on its intent, which is to enable players of all experience levels and competitive orientations to be able to play the game. This, to my perception, indicates that the intent is rather on the mental aspect of the game - the winner should be the player who knows the contest better. A skill ceiling can indeed be part of this knowledge and ability in the game, but if the choices are to widen skill gaps with technique, or to widen them with application of less-intensive abilities, it would seem natural to expand the contest through a test of knowledge before, but supplemented by, physical ability.

If Sakurai be magnanimous, there is no other choice other than to design Smash 4 with a high skill ceiling.

Now, the only other perspective that can be taken is this: the core mechanics (the mastery of the basics, as you call it) which everything else builds off of ought not be difficult to learn.

However, if basic is an absolute term, then it cannot be set at an arbitrary percent of the various techniques of a given game. As for what other absolute it could be set at, I am confounded, since there seems none. If basic be an absolutely relative term (hon hon hon, it seems an oxymoron already!) then how can we know on any basis ever that any distinction we make is reliable in the slightest, are we not groping in the dark for illusory absolutes? There is a third way. That which is a basic skill seems relative to each level. Put another way it means the techniques and skills that clearly distinguish one level from another are the basics of that level. The more subtle things we can put aside as not as immediately integral to the upward journey of progress.
Ah, this is a good debate, and my stance would be made more understandable when attached to my definition of a basic technique. A basic technique is an action resulting directly from an input. Catching against a surface, running, attacking, jumping, shielding, and rolling are all examples of such basic techniques. Their function does not depend on their interaction with other techniques. In short, they are what one could put simply on a control map - "You dodge by pressing R and then a direction," "You attack by pressing A or B with a direction". By comparison, an advanced technique arises as a combination of these basic functions, often with stricter timings - "You Wavedash by hopping and then dodging at a sharp angle towards the ground," "You aerial-glide-toss by initiating a dodge in midair, and very quickly throwing your item in any direction." An advanced technique demands experimentation or learning from another who has done such experimentation (or anyone in the chain past the discoverer of the technique). A basic technique is an observation of the game's simplest actions. While these are still somewhat relative terms, they are easier to pin down with a clear definition. Wall kicking, as well, falls under an advanced technique to me, as it is an unexpected means of ascension brought about by a specific interaction against the wall.

One cannot see that which they have no knowledge of. One cannot perceive or conceive of those who are of a higher skill level without the observation of them. Therefore, for those who do not observe the skill levels which are outside their limited scope are stunted in the fact that they do not know the capacity of the game, in that they have no canon, no measuring rod, no saint, no lodestar. But, those that do not observe higher skill levels are ultimately unconcerned with it, for it cannot enter into their consideration except by deliberate abstraction and intense analysis, therefore it is said that the segregation of casuals and hardcore players is both viable and admirable. It is not the sole intention of matchmaking, however. That might be a discussion for another time.

With the above two facts, it is plain that 'casual' is a subjective term. That is, the distinction between casual and hardcore is found within the observer who has for his object another player. Casual is generally those who are in the lowest known skill range. A hardcore player is to the observer generally he who is in the highest known skill range.

We have shown, in the above, that designing for casual and hardcore players can be done at the same time, and it is a false dichotomy to suppose that one cannot cater to both.
But even after all that we might still not agree. What say you of the above?
I think, following my previous responses, that my stance is clear - the difference of skill should be shown brightest in the knowledge and application of each character's capabilities. Technique should be present to unlock these abilities, and feats of technique are a marvel, but more impressive still is the act of outwitting an opponent with an unthought maneuver. This, I believe and hope, is the direction that Smash 4 is taking. Known techniques such as pivot tilting and edge trumping are simple to perform, from an input command perspective, particularly when compared to the rather strict wavedash, L-cancel, glide toss, and even the DACUS. By making this field of dextral skill more resemble a nice hiking hill rather than a large and imposing (but, to the right audience, enticing and satisfying) mountainside, we open the path for victory to stem from one's superior mastery of one's representative hero and said hero's great potential. Knowledge of when to apply Shulk's various forms to press one's advantage or cover one's weakness, knowledge of how to moderate the strength of Robin's tomes such as to minimize the foe's window of opportunity when you're at your weakest, the knowledge of how to properly space Sheik's attacks for the desired outcome of combo or kill, and the knowledge of how to best force your opponent into an ideal Knee of Justice - such a diverse battlefield of possibilities is attainable at the end of a player's hike of technical growth. A more technical player will still carry an advantage of capability, but this advantage can be overcome by a particularly brilliant move on the part of a technically less refined player. Such a dynamic benefits onlookers, as well, as the underdog can pull a miraculous comeback by virtue of his mastery of his character and the game, rather than mastery of universal techniques.

Also, I love your writing style, and wish I weren't too tired to come up with a similarly flowery response.




If you're talking about Melee, ummm, you main Marth right=??? Well the best Melee Marth in smash currently lives in your state...
...PPMD.
I'm talking about Smash as a whole, and while I am aware that PPMD is a local, the presence of one skilled player (I'm aware there are more, I simply haven't heard of them) does not necessarily indicate a particularly strong, large, or advertised scene in the area.

Edit: And after some further research, it does seem that I'm just largely ignorant of opportunities around here. Still rather shocking how little I can find for PM in the Raleigh area, though. I'll still be limited due to my travel restrictions (didn't bring my car to college), but thanks for prompting me to research a bit harder.
 
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Jaedrik

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-snippity doo da-
Also, I love your writing style, and wish I weren't too tired to come up with a similarly flowery response.
Thank you, sir.
Alas! I must rest to maintain a healthy schedule. Goodnight.
 
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Tristan_win

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Sakurai said nothing about making it less competitive.( besides competitive is was the community makes it)
Hes just making sure everyone can execute the basic functions of the game how we use it will show the gaps in player skill.
There are so many other games out there which are geared to tournaments. It is important for us, however, to maintain the game’s status as a kind of ‘rough’ party game in which anyone can play without feeling too much pressure over winning or losing. We therefore want to keep a nice balance in which a wide variety of events can occur in the game, some of them quite outrageous. With this, Smash Bros. isn’t just a fighting game, it is an opponent-based action game.
To give a few examples of showing the game not built to be competitive

..Anyways everyone could already do that and for the most cases even for advance techniques. In melee waving shine isn't some crazy up up down down left right left right B A string of button presses to do some crazy special attack but a bunch of small actions happening one after another to complete a task. The only time this isn't true is when we have glitches like samus super wavedash or in Brawl dacus which I will agree with you shouldn't be in the game.
 
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Retroend

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When did playing multiple games make you "better"=??? You don't have to adapt to another game if you don't want to.
and that right there shows that people are unable to accept change. since when does something stay the same forever? it doesn't. if you don't like the feel of a game, then don't play it. just like everything in real life changes, evolves, so do video games. it changes whether for better or for worse. every smash bros game has been different from its predecessor. the core concept is still there, but its been tweaked to stand out from each other. no one should ever expect the game to feel EXACTLY the same as its prequel. for sakurai trying to make it between melee and brawl is one of the best moves he could do right now. whether people choose to learn the game or not is on them. it won't be what everyone wants or what you want, it will be its own game, with its own pluses and its own flaws and that is something that every smasher needs to learn to accept.
 
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Road Death Wheel

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To give a few examples of showing the game not built to be competitive

..Anyways everyone could already do that and for the most cases even for advance techniques. In melee waving shine isn't some crazy up up down down left right left right B A string of button presses to do some crazy special attack but a bunch of small actions happening one after another to complete a task. The only time this isn't true is when we have glitches like samus super wavedash or in Brawl dacus which I will agree with you shouldn't be in the game.
Jeez do you know what the word competitive means?
Hes building it be be competitive because there confrontation to win between two/four players
Everyone being able to physically accomplish each task is important. What sakurai is aiming for is for the less skilled player to understand what made him lose other than getting beat by some weird AT that he dose not understand.
 

JV5Chris

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This article does clear up Sakurai's opinion a bit more, but my thoughts on them are still largely the same.

Sakurai has a tendency to associate the difficulty of high-level play in Melee with the accessibility of the basic game. I could understand having regrets about the notable execution barriers in the middle of the learning curve, but Melee's entry level ease of play is something he should be really proud of. For all the features and systems they added, it's remarkably friendly and enjoyable for players new to the series.

The statement about Smash 4 bringing back the level of dynamism is encouraging, but I wish he would speak to how. Sure I'm not the only one wondering what their roadmap was to try achieving this. I agree with SnakeEyes, Sakuari doesn't have it right, which makes me really wonder kind of discussions the designers were having about this behind the scenes.
 
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Johnknight1

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and that right there shows that people are unable to accept change. since when does something stay the same forever? it doesn't. if you don't like the feel of a game, then don't play it.
That was literally my entire point.

I wasn't even making an inferred competitive or casual statement just, playing "more fighting/smash games" isn't inherently better or worse.

Everything else in your point was based on false presumptions, so I'll leave it at that.
 

Road Death Wheel

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This article does clear up Sakurai's opinion a bit more, but my thoughts on them are still largely the same.

Sakurai has a tendency to associate the difficulty of high-level play in Melee with the accessibility of the basic game. I could understand having regrets about the notable execution barriers in the middle of the learning curve, but Melee's entry level ease of play is something he should be really proud of. For all the features and systems they added, it's remarkably friendly and enjoyable for players new to the series.

The statement about Smash 4 bringing back the level of dynamism is encouraging, but I wish he would speak to how. Sure I'm not the only one wondering what their roadmap was to try achieving this.
It was not the ease of getting into the game that was the problem it was the slap in the face when you try to get competitive for the first time and get crushed because you literally never heard of 4/5th of the AT's
 
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