Public Schooling

[KingJiggyWiggy]

OH geez I think the USA needs to change its education system for the life of it. Lets talk about the education system here.

Who's down for less Standardized Tests?

 

[Aaryk]

I'm down for less accountability for the ******* and dropouts.

 

[Gamer4Fire]

People in the United States generally don't value education like the rest of the world does. Until people can see that knowledge and it's application is power, we will continue to create mediocre students.

 

[HolyChef]

i'm up for keeping standardized tests. how would any college ever be able to tell if a student is smarter than another if they don't take the same or similar tests, such as the SAT.

 

[OffTheChain]

I'm down with less school shootings above all else.

 

[Miharu]

i'm up for keeping standardized tests. how would any college ever be able to tell if a student is smarter than another if they don't take the same or similar tests, such as the SAT.

I'm up for changing said standardized tests.

Right now, the SAT tells you one thing, and one thing only: how well you are able to perform the SAT.

 

[Livvers]

Exactly, Kage.

I'm a good test taker. I could study the SAT a week before hand, do well, and then forget most of it the next week. I'm only bad at math because I take a long time.

Also, if you have a disorder like ADD, you get as long as you want on the test =\ A lot of kids happen to be diagnosed with ADD a month or so before the test. HMMMMM

 

[Tom]

I went to a private, all-boys college preparatory institution where I got the contacts I needed to succeed and took a whole semester of "Test Taking and SAT/ACT Prep."

The system works fine.

 

[Keku]

All the schools are public up to the age of rougly 18 years here, dunno if that would fit USA though. It's working wonders here, at least according to PISA.

 

[HolyChef]

so what measures how well you perform in school and will perform in college? are you suggesting that everyone be given different tests and tell like that? thats a good idea because its fare to other kids with the harder tests! *ends sarcasm*

and about studying a week before the SAT, i don't think you could since you said you're a good test taker, but youre bad at math. well thats like half the test right there almost. and about ADD, you can't just say you have ADD, you got to go to a doctor. also i dont think theres a huge number of kids getting diagnosed with ADD a month before the test to make it a problem.

i agree with tom. our system is fine. people that do poorly on these tests should have been smart enough to study and prepare for them in the first place. also, the whole bad test taker thing is a total complete cop out as well. and trust me there is definitely a difference in intelligence when you meet two people with different scores.

gg. can't wait, only 11 more days!

 

[Tom]

I went to a private, all-boys college preparatory institution where I got the contacts I needed to succeed and took a whole semester of "Test Taking and SAT/ACT Prep."

The system works fine.

i agree with tom. our system is fine. people that do poorly on these tests should have been smart enough to study and prepare for them in the first place. also, the whole bad test taker thing is a total complete cop out as well. and trust me there is definitely a difference in intelligence when you meet two people with different scores.

Actually, I was being sarcastic. =/ I mentioned my ridiculously overhanded schooling in attempts to make it kind of obvious -- I was in possibly the highest position of power as a test taker, save for being a poor, gay, black female. I had all the preparation that the majority of the kids' parents would die for, in a system that acknowledged that you usually have to be good at taking tests like the ACT/SAT to do well on them.

I do believe that the ACT/SAT tests don't exactly test for your intellect and instead testing for your "test taking" abilities. But I also believe that the two are not mutually exclusive. If you're taking the test, you're not at an age where you can change the system. Just take a prep course, or go to a bookstore and read the prep book and do the exercises on your own paper. Get a good night's sleep, and buy a $30 texas instruments calculator from Wal Mart if you dont have the fancy graphing one. Eat your brain food, bring water and pencils, and make sure you've registered correctly and brought your ID.

 

[KingJiggyWiggy]

So does anybody in here know where the origins of public schooling comes from? I think you all should go to a library and read a book about it, you will find something surprising.

I don't like the education system here... not because I am immature but because school is what is immature. Every time I saw a kid complain about SAT I would automatically think he is stupid. But now I realize those majority of kids were right and I was the stupid one.

SAT teaches you nothing and dumbs you down even more. Its one reason why kids no longer wish to educate themselves outside of school.

I also don't like the way leadership skills are completely denied. All of the teachers will tell you, "You are just a child and I am an adult. You can't make decisions because you have no responsibilities." Oh yeah? Well how come Alexander the Great could lead armies in his teens? Hm?

 

[HolyChef]

Actually, I was being sarcastic. =/ I mentioned my ridiculously overhanded schooling in attempts to make it kind of obvious -- I was in possibly the highest position of power as a test taker, save for being a poor, gay, black female. I had all the preparation that the majority of the kids' parents would die for, in a system that acknowledged that you usually have to be good at taking tests like the ACT/SAT to do well on them.

I do believe that the ACT/SAT tests don't exactly test for your intellect and instead testing for your "test taking" abilities. But I also believe that the two are not mutually exclusive. If you're taking the test, you're not at an age where you can change the system. Just take a prep course, or go to a bookstore and read the prep book and do the exercises on your own paper. Get a good night's sleep, and buy a $30 texas instruments calculator from Wal Mart if you dont have the fancy graphing one. Eat your brain food, bring water and pencils, and make sure you've registered correctly and brought your ID.

not very ridiculous when alot of people were smart enough to do those things. like i said people should be smart enough to do all those things to prepare.



also i guess its just a coincidence that people, that have more to show for their intelligence such as fortune and hard to get degrees, have higher SAT scores? how come the most successful guys usually have high SAT scores? i thought SATs dumb you down.

and also wow. you're gonna blame the SATs for kids not wanting to educate themselves out of school. that cool because now that means laziness and parents have nothing to do with the poor performance of a kid.

teen leadership being denied now? you bring up times from over 2000 years ago. the life expectancy was around age 30 back then. hm. i dont think you can compare 300 BC to 2008 AD. times have changed just a bit.

 

[Livvers]

so what measures how well you perform in school and will perform in college? are you suggesting that everyone be given different tests and tell like that? thats a good idea because its fare to other kids with the harder tests! *ends sarcasm*

and about studying a week before the SAT, i don't think you could since you said you're a good test taker, but youre bad at math. well thats like half the test right there almost. and about ADD, you can't just say you have ADD, you got to go to a doctor. also i dont think theres a huge number of kids getting diagnosed with ADD a month before the test to make it a problem.

i agree with tom. our system is fine. people that do poorly on these tests should have been smart enough to study and prepare for them in the first place. also, the whole bad test taker thing is a total complete cop out as well. and trust me there is definitely a difference in intelligence when you meet two people with different scores.

gg. can't wait, only 11 more days!

Ok, don't put words in my mouth. I said SATs really don't matter because there are a lot of kids who can study for it a week before hand, and basically just study for that test. I never hinted at specialized tests for different students 9_9 In fact, I'm against the dumbing down of schooling that's been happening. And yes, generally kids who can do that are more intelligent, but then those kids will have higher grades in school anyways. My main problem with standardized tests is that it basically forces teachers to have to teach certain material during those times. It really doesn't better the student in any way, and students don't really learn anything from it except how to take the SAT/ACT. I generally think these tests are a waste of time.

Also, because I'm bad at one section of the SAT, that makes my statement void? Math is more difficult for many students. I don't have a brain for math. I can do math(and I'll actually note I'm being modest here), but like I said, it takes me a long time to work through a problem. Almost no amount of studying will ever change that for me unless I work through the same type of problems over and over and over again. Regardless of this, I was somehow able to score well on the rest of the ACT. Huh, how about that.

Also, if math is almost half of the SAT(I don't know since I never took it), then how is this a good standardized test like you say? Some people are incredibly gifted at math, others aren't. It actually WOULDN'T be fair to judge a kid's score based on that.

It is incredibly easy to get diagnosed with ADD, especially if you have some parents with extra cash who are willing to do just about anything to give their kid a chance at a higher score. And even if a ton of kids don't do this, it still happens and shows another flaw in the system. It sucks because there's nothing really anyone can do about it, because kids with actual ADD generally will need more time on the test. I don't think they should get an unlimited time limit, though.

Some of this is tl;dr and kind of goes away from the initial topic a bit, but *shrug* My main point is that SATs and ACTs generally don't do any good. Not that it really matters for me because if I ever go to college, I'll most likely go for something in art.

 

[Bendu]

not very ridiculous when alot of people were smart enough to do those things. like i said people should be smart enough to do all those things to prepare.

I studied exactly none for the ACT. I didn't even really think about it until the morning of, when I woke up 15 minutes before taking it and didn't eat breakfast.

I made a 31.

To illustrate further how easy and imbalanced I found the whole process. Even though I had a 31 on the ACT, my GPA by the end of my high school career was a 2.4 or something like that. Basically every single one of my friends had better GPAs and more extra-curricular activities than I did (I had basically none?). But then I got a better scholarship than they did.

I may be the only person who thinks this. But maybe I'm either just smarter than I think I am, or the ACT is a joke. I just found it way too easy.

 

[Livvers]

Way to go Bendu.

Lol, I didn't study for the test, either, and got a 25 I think. And this is after not having taken a math class for a year. I based my "I can study for the test a week before-hand and do well" on me studying for most my high school tests the morning of the test. I just couldn't be ***** to study for the ACTs.

Also, you're effed on the SAT/ACT if you're not a fast reader. The science section was basically "LOL READ THIS OR LOOK AT THIS CHART AND ANSWER QUESTIONS". I kind of made the mistake of actually enjoying what I was reading in the science part(one section was talking about the planet Venus and it was awesome)and nearly not finishing the questions in time. Oops! Lol. The speed at which you read isn't much an intelligence factor, depending.

 

[Bendu]

Way to go Bendu.

Lol, I didn't study for the test, either, and got a 25 I think. And this is after not having taken a math class for a year. I based my "I can study for the test a week before-hand and do well" on me studying for most my high school tests the morning of the test. I just couldn't be ***** to study for the ACTs.

Also, you're effed on the SAT/ACT if you're not a fast reader. The science section was basically "LOL READ THIS OR LOOK AT THIS CHART AND ANSWER QUESTIONS". I kind of made the mistake of actually enjoying what I was reading in the science part(one section was talking about the planet Venus and it was awesome)and nearly not finishing the questions in time. Oops! Lol. The speed at which you read isn't much an intelligence factor, depending.

Ya, it strikes me that the science section is where most people suffer, but it seems like most people I know get screwed on the math section. One girl I know definitely would've scored as good as or better than me, if she had done better on the math section.

Although I'm not sure how I did so well in the math section really, I don't think I really knew how to do any of that crap. I honestly don't even remember the order of operations from basic algebra.

 

[Tom]

So does anybody in here know where the origins of public schooling comes from? I think you all should go to a library and read a book about it, you will find something surprising.

I don't like the education system here... not because I am immature but because school is what is immature. Every time I saw a kid complain about SAT I would automatically think he is stupid. But now I realize those majority of kids were right and I was the stupid one.

SAT teaches you nothing and dumbs you down even more. Its one reason why kids no longer wish to educate themselves outside of school.

I also don't like the way leadership skills are completely denied. All of the teachers will tell you, "You are just a child and I am an adult. You can't make decisions because you have no responsibilities." Oh yeah? Well how come Alexander the Great could lead armies in his teens? Hm?

A lot of studies have shown that the public schooling system in the United States teaches in a manner which works against the way children naturally learn. A few books have been published about the so called crisis, and there are lobbyists out there going nuts over it. People are constantly fussing about the public education system, so its not really "something surprising" at all.

The school system isn't "immature." Not all the kids who complain about the SAT are geniuses either. Did you even read what I posted previously? You probably should have, as the topic creator, seeing as how you are still voicing your opinion =/ The kids who want to do well will reach out and find help, and its possible to find the help for free. Some kids are bad test takers, but not everyone needs to get into a private university. Those students who aren't the best test takers, who aren't what the SAT is looking for, and who don't come from a wealthy background and dont have the private high-school edge would succeed perfectly at a state university and it would be even cheaper than the private alternative.

The SAT isn't supposed to teach you anything, either. It is supposed to gauge your test taking abilities. That, combined with a written essay, your grades, and a report on your extracurricular activities (and possibly a teacher's recommendations) are a perfectly suitable system of college admissions.

And you should really know that Alexander the Great's education was a complete exception to the rule, and still is. He was a private pupil, he was royalty, and he was raised and educated to be a wartime king.

So obviously the SAT/ACT don't test for straight up knowledge or factual information, but to be honest, they don't have to. Your grades will show how much you learned, and your test scores will show what you are capable of. They serve different purposes but work towards the same goal of getting you into college. A lot of schools put a heavy emphasis on the SAT/ACT, and a lot of private institutions have classes that teach kids simply how to ace those tests, but its not all a bad thing. Just do well with what you can and I promise you that you will be fine.

But, off of the subject of standardized testing and onto the subject of public schooling. The system is hard to keep in check because it just so large. It is nearly impossible to make sure that every teacher avoids phrases like the ones you mentioned. Also, a large number of parents don't discipline or motivate their children enough so that they learn to value their education. Its not always the system's fault if a kid thinks he can skip his homework, only partially understand the lessons, and expect to pass. Everything is cumulative. Like G4F said earlier, if people would appreciate their education more, then the system would rework itself.

I could go on for hours, but hopefully you get the points that I am trying to make. =/

I studied exactly none for the ACT. I didn't even really think about it until the morning of, when I woke up 15 minutes before taking it and didn't eat breakfast.

I made a 31.

To illustrate further how easy and imbalanced I found the whole process. Even though I had a 31 on the ACT, my GPA by the end of my high school career was a 2.4 or something like that. Basically every single one of my friends had better GPAs and more extra-curricular activities than I did (I had basically none?). But then I got a better scholarship than they did.

I may be the only person who thinks this. But maybe I'm either just smarter than I think I am, or the ACT is a joke. I just found it way too easy.

Well, like I said earlier, the SAT/ACT are meant to test your "aptitude" or "test taking abilities." Its not mutually exclusive from the knowledge you were supposed to have learned in high school (read: concepts of algebra and trig), but at the same time, it isn't the only thing that scholarships are NORMALLY given out for. I don't know what kind of scholarship you got where your 31 ACT and 2.4 GPA qualified you, while your friend with a higher GPA didn't get it, but most scholarships are based on both or there is a scholarship for each.

not very ridiculous when alot of people were smart enough to do those things. like i said people should be smart enough to do all those things to prepare.



also i guess its just a coincidence that people, that have more to show for their intelligence such as fortune and hard to get degrees, have higher SAT scores? how come the most successful guys usually have high SAT scores? i thought SATs dumb you down.

and also wow. you're gonna blame the SATs for kids not wanting to educate themselves out of school. that cool because now that means laziness and parents have nothing to do with the poor performance of a kid.

teen leadership being denied now? you bring up times from over 2000 years ago. the life expectancy was around age 30 back then. hm. i dont think you can compare 300 BC to 2008 AD. times have changed just a bit.

I'm not quite sure who you were talking to in your post, but I'm going to assume it was me? Yeah, people should be smart enough to do all those things to prepare for the test.

I think the problem lies in the fact that some institutions put the WRONG connotation on the standardized tests. "The only thing they test for is how well you do on them!! waahh!" well duh, that is actually what they were made for -- they are aptitude tests first, and judges of your high school education second. Your GPA and multiple essays account for the representation of your education when you apply for college, and the SAT/ACT account for your "aptitude." Although there are some flaws, personally I can't think of a better system.

 

[KingJiggyWiggy]

All right then lets get a modern example here. George Washingtonwas appointed first public office age 17, then became a US MAJOR at age 20.

Tom you are forgetting that the American education system comes from Germany. There was no good intention behind it. We all see teenagers and young adults as children because they have low responsibilities. Hell I know a man who worked 3 jobs at age 12. It was hard and he didn't have an education, but now he owns his business. Did it take college OR high school to get there? He used his brains, thats how.

Germany created the idea to ensure that no one gets ahead of the people who make decisions for their land. Did anyone notice how there are very few people now who have done anything amazing? Its because we are all the same. SAT was meant to check if you are in line with the rest. If you aren't in line then you are in detention for being a "bad" child. That is immaturity at its best.

I have scored 76 percent higher than most kids. It isn't great but it isn't bad either. Its pretty good for someone who never chooses to study though...

 

[Gamer4Fire]

I think that the school system should be overhauled. The supposed purpose of school is to get people ready for the real world, but it hardly seems to do so. The elementary school system should be exactly that, elementary requirements. Reading, writing and arithmetic. Junior high should have basic sciences, civics and history and high school should be more like a trade school, with different high schools concentrating on different vocations. That way, when a student leaves high school they will immediately be ready for a specific job field with minimal training to start being productive.

 

[Bendu]

Well, like I said earlier, the SAT/ACT are meant to test your "aptitude" or "test taking abilities." Its not mutually exclusive from the knowledge you were supposed to have learned in high school (read: concepts of algebra and trig), but at the same time, it isn't the only thing that scholarships are NORMALLY given out for. I don't know what kind of scholarship you got where your 31 ACT and 2.4 GPA qualified you, while your friend with a higher GPA didn't get it, but most scholarships are based on both or there is a scholarship for each.

Actually I got a scholarship that required me to have at least a 3.25 GPA to get it. Or a 3.0. I think. I got it in spite of my bad GPA. All I did was go to my school counselor and said "I was wondering if there was any way I could get a scholarship now that I have my ACT score." because I didn't think I could get one either.

He basically said "with a 31 you could probably get one." And I did. Just a hundred or two dollars shy of fully paid.

What I'm basically trying to say is that while the system is supposed to weigh all the different aspects when looking at prospective students. If you do really good on the ACT you can just ride that all the way into college and unless they're very strict on their admissions, they won't care about anything else you did or didn't do.

And just to clarify I am going to a pretty good 4-year college.

 

[KingJiggyWiggy]

I think that the school system should be overhauled. The supposed purpose of school is to get people ready for the real world, but it hardly seems to do so. The elementary school system should be exactly that, elementary requirements. Reading, writing and arithmetic. Junior high should have basic sciences, civics and history and high school should be more like a trade school, with different high schools concentrating on different vocations. That way, when a student leaves high school they will immediately be ready for a specific job field with minimal training to start being productive.

I am all for this idea. The kids are always complaining of things they will never use again. If they truly wanted to learn advanced calculus then they would strive for it.

I would like to push for more physical fitness tests as well. It can teach motivation and team work.

 

[Schweppes]

I'd like to point out that it's the SAT: Logic and Reasoning test, and that's what it measures. Mathematics and Critical Reading are basic enough such that anyone taking it wouldn't need to "learn" anything, but be able to logically deduce a number, or understand the English language and its connotations (Writing is a little iffy).

You can certainly be intelligent in the sense of knowing many things and understanding higher-level concepts, but all that essentially boils down to basic logic and reasoning. Of course it's not a perfect system, the human mind is too complex to just slap a number onto.

The US's educational system has worked well enough for me so far (12th grade), but it seems to me like the kids in mid-level classes don't really do anything educational at all. I'm taking one this year, and there's at least a ten-minute buffer time both after the beginning of the block and before the end of just chatting and milling about (it's definitely not made up for with an intense middle - quite the contrary). Luckily we have 80-minute blocks at my school, so it's not quite that bad. I can't imagine having 45-minute blocks, even in honors classes where the pace is quicker. I have a hard time believing that high school students seriously "can't focus" for 80 minutes.

 

[KingJiggyWiggy]

Tom you mentioned books speaking about this problem, what are these books you speak of?

Schweppes: Does any of that teach you real world concepts to survive? Does any of it get you a job? (Not that anyone would want to work for corporate ***holes anyway)

 

[Schweppes]

Uhm, yes? The ability to think logically is the basis of more advanced subjects one would learn in college, which help you get jobs (ex. engineering). Not that it's the only thing that matters, but education is pretty important to "surviving."

 

[Ryan-K]

The US's educational system has worked well enough for me so far (12th grade), but it seems to me like the kids in mid-level classes don't really do anything educational at all. I'm taking one this year, and there's at least a ten-minute buffer time both after the beginning of the block and before the end of just chatting and milling about (it's definitely not made up for with an intense middle - quite the contrary). Luckily we have 80-minute blocks at my school, so it's not quite that bad. I can't imagine having 45-minute blocks, even in honors classes where the pace is quicker. I have a hard time believing that high school students seriously "can't focus" for 80 minutes.

Wow that is very different from what we have here in New York- In my high school we have 9 periods (or blocks) of 41 minutes each. I don't remember the amount of time each period had when I was in junior high in the 6th grade (I went to a pretty good school in Brooklyn which was where I lived at the time), but I am almost positive it was alot longer than here. In this school however there are alot of crazy course choices though or at least in my eyes as I am pretty ignorant to how other schools work for the most part, (Financial Management, sports marketing, e-commerce, architecture, etc. are some examples ).

We don't have 80 minute period but for certain science classes, every other day you have two periods consecutively.

Sorry if this was a bit from left field but I found this contrast pretty interesting.

 

[NotaModerator]

I don't like the style of tests like the SAT. it focuses on test taking, not knowledge. i believe it doesn't matter if you get an A or a C or D(F, however, is unexceptable) but it matters how much you get out of the class. so if you study for the style of the SAT, you learn test taking, and a lot of jobs don't include SAT-style tests.

 

[BlackFoxPariah]

The US will cease to exist eventually. Our generation, not all, but too many students just don't care about their education. The great thinkers of this world will no longer be american. Schools don't stress math and science enough. Kids slack to much. They are in a hurry to grow up. My high school makes kids think drama, being their problems, is more important than their grades. I would love to see these idiots 5 years after they graduate because they were off track- they now work at a McDonalds making minimum wage with kids and some sort of significant other that is struggling to help keep the family afloat.

Schools tell kids grades are important, however they don't stress enough this impacts the rest of your life. So don't study for that test, don't finish that homework, just struggle the rest of your life. ..yeah, its really worth it.

(Sorry for the rant, I am just extremely angry at the moment)

 

[The true_blade]

yes down with the public testing its useless