Pummel Frame Speed

SuSa · Oct 9, 2010

This is such a mess, I can't read this data worth ****. =\

I need to find the frame data for every characters pummel so that I may finish my grab project. This is posing an issue because Smash Attack obviously doesn't work for finding this, and while some characters seem to work (Yoshi), others are a total mess (Squirtle, Meta Knight) and so I'm asking for some Smash Lab assistance. Either create a mini-guide to show me how to find it myself, or help me gather everyones frame data for pummels. Up to you.

Oh, and it seems every character board except Yoshi (and maybe Ike) is missing pummel frame data anyways... it's like.. an overlooked move or something. :laugh:

What I know:
CatchAttack (Assumed pummel) is SubAction 70
I suck at this.
This would be so much easier with a working copy of Brawl and using frame advance. =|

Here's my thread (Figure I should finish it before I start working on any SL projects, considering I started it before I was a researcher)
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=11350826#post11350826

rPSIvysaur · Oct 9, 2010

To find pummel speed, you also have to take in account the hitlag, which varies based on damage. =/

I could probably write something to help you soon.

SuSa · Oct 9, 2010

Uhm, hold on... using strictly data I'd have to account hitlag? Correct?

I could've sworn somewhere else said to not worry about the hitlag.. as the move still ends at a certain point. I'll try to find where I got that from.

Yikarur · Oct 9, 2010

that is no true hitlag so calculate it by using damage hitlag formula won't work.
PSA differs the hitlag of a pummel and the rest animation
in PSA Yoshis Pummels last frame is frame 15. (iirc) but ingame it's 19 (20 FAF) because the attack has 4 frames of hitlag which isn't shown by PSA

SuSa · Oct 9, 2010

Oh goody, I get to go in and count frames for the entire cast once I get my new copy of Brawl.

Which better be tonight, I was told I'd get it yesterday.

Yikarur · Oct 9, 2010

Wolfs Pummel:
Start-up: 1
Hit: 2
Hitlag: 3-6 (4 Frames)
Ends: 10

I've done Wolf for testing purpose.
so minus one char =P

Is it possible to find out how long the Pummel Animation lasts? in Brawlbox or something?
that's important to know also not FAF but the frame where the animation itself ends.

SuSa · Oct 9, 2010

Wait, but reading the data that's what I ended up getting for Wolf... =|

EDIT:

Here's everything I got, I know it's not all correct (See squirtle)

~~Wolf's in another post of mine, I need to find it.~~ That was when I was for-sure doing it wrong. :x

KayLo! · Oct 9, 2010

When I tested Zelda way back in the day, this is what I got in-game in frame advance (I assume fresh at 0% on Mario since that's what I tested everything on, but I can't remember):

Startup: 1-6
Hit: 7

For cooldown, I have 8-31, but I feel like that's not right at all. Her pummel is extremely slow, but I don't think it's that laggy.

SuSa · Oct 9, 2010

Did you test for any possible IASA frames? :x maybe that's why.

Also 31 = about 2 pummels per second

KayLo! · Oct 9, 2010

I have 32 as the IASA. I can't remember exactly what I did back then though, and this was when I was first getting into frame advance, so it's very possible that I did it wrong. I'll try to remember to recheck it sometime soon.

Luxor · Oct 9, 2010

Do these numbers correlate with the RA-bit 25 or anything at all in OSA?

rPSIvysaur · Oct 9, 2010

Yikarur said:
that is no true hitlag so calculate it by using damage hitlag formula won't work.
PSA differs the hitlag of a pummel and the rest animation
in PSA Yoshis Pummels last frame is frame 15. (iirc) but ingame it's 19 (20 FAF) because the attack has 4 frames of hitlag which isn't shown by PSA

Umm... yes the hitlag formula does work. I just tested it.

Also the 1st hitframe is included in the hitlag. lol.

So after that, you just have to factor in stale moves. =/

SuSa · Oct 9, 2010

Stale moves would only make a pummel go down by a single frame I would assume.... and if so, that won't make any significant impact on my data - seeing as my data is already not exact due to using human approximations for the data.

The data I am gathering is merely meant to be of practical use and isn't an exact science. Therefore factoring stale moves, while interesting data, isn't of practical use.

I feel studying practical data is far more important than theoretical data

EDIT:

I took a look at Lucas's Pummel, the animation is 30 frames.. you got 24 (20?) frames, I can't find anything even hinting at that. Your link did me very little good considering the confusion that is CatchAttack being broken as ****. =| This is frustrating me..

EDIT2:
"When you click on one of them, it should bring up FrameCount and 3 Unknowns. To find the FAF based upon the animaiton, you need to record the animation length."

Okay.. well.. I recorded the animation length for Lucas's CatchAttack.. 30 frames.. what do I.. do with it now? =|

EDIT3:

Lucas' Pummel

Hitlag
floor{(3/2.6 + 5)*1*1}
6 frames of hitlag

0 Input Pummel
3 First Hitframe of Pummel
8 Last Hitlag Frame
(3-8 is Hitlag, making 6 frames of hitlag)
9 First Continuation of Pummel
18 First Frame of Next Pummel

OSA:
Asynch 2
Hitbox
Synch 1
Terminate Collsion
Asynch 12
RA-BIT[16]

BrawlBox:
Frame Count: 30

So where the **** did you get your numbers from? =|

Luxor · Oct 10, 2010

Susa, your question answered mine lol. As I suspected, RA-Bit 16 is the IASA for pummels, not really but you know. Frame 12 Bit 16 + rPSI's 6 frames of hitlag = 18 frame pummel, like rSigh got. Thankfully the experimental and the theoretical values match up.

SuSa · Oct 10, 2010

So I was correct all along that RA-BIT[16] was the IASA frame for pummels...... =| so glad nobody could just give me a straight up answer....

Now I just need to find that hitlag formula. XD

Luxor · Oct 10, 2010

It's in that one thread Veril made. Damage /3 rounded down or something.

itouch edit:

•q refers to position in move queue, fresh bonus applies to the first use per stock
•damage=base damage as listed for the hitbubble in PSA * staleness modifier (fresh=1.05, q0=1, q1=.9, q2=.81, etc=.73, .66, .6, .55, .51, .48, .46). Damage is read to the hundredths place, so #.xx. So if you were wondering if fractional damage is possible... it is.

•Shieldstun=Sstun=Floor[(damage)/3]
•Shield hitlag=SHL=Floor[(damage/2.6)*E+5]
•Hitlag=HL=Floor[(damage/2.6)*HLM*E]
•E=1.5 for electric attacks and 1 for normal attacks, other elements warrant further study.
•bkb induced hitstun=bkb*.4
•normal escape frame on block=hitframe + SHL + sstun

Hitlag starts the frame of the hit, very important to keep that in mind.

I already posted a thread on size but I guess I'll move that here.

^Veril's post. There you go, stale moves and hitlag and stuff.

SuSa · Oct 10, 2010

Formula looked more complicated than that, but if that's all it really is for a pummel... <_< lol

rPSIvysaur · Oct 10, 2010

Hitlag:
floor{(Damage/2.6 + 5)*M*E}
Damage is the damage of the hitbox
M is the hitlag multiplier
E is if it's electric

To find M look for the second to last number before the flag parameter. (flag parameter is like 8 hex digits long)
You shouldn't have to worry about E.

SuSa · Oct 10, 2010

Thank you, finally.

Now I get to go through and find the damage for every pummel fresh. =P Shouldn't be too hard. I'll start working on the data as I solve it.

EDIT:
Pikachu might matter for E? Same with Olimar's Yellow pikmin.

EDIT:
Bowser - 28 Frames

KayLo! · Oct 10, 2010

And Zelda.

SuSa · Oct 10, 2010

I like how every frame data/damage guide/character guide in history seems to ignore pummel exists.... =| Bowser and Yoshi are the only two I've found on the boards.

I didn't want to have to constantly swap between programs to find this stuff... T_T but I guess I'll have to record everything down in one, then open it in another and write everything down again... so I'll be editing this post with everything. Working on it right now (1:31am) until about 2am. I'll finish up tomorrow after that, because I'll be needing sleep..

All RA already have the +1 added to them. <_<'
To start off:
Bowser:
28 Frames

Captain Falcon:
RA 16 frames
1M

Diddy Kong:
RA 17 Frames
1M

Donky Koney:
RA 16 Frames
1M

Falco:
RA 17 Frames
1M

Fox:
RA 10 frames
1M

Game & Watch
30 Framecount [Animation, all pummels seem to be 30 frames? O_o]
1M

Ganon
24 Framecount
1M

Ike
RA 23

Pikachu:
18 Frames

Snake:
RA 18 Frames
1M

KayLo! · Oct 10, 2010

You can't count on character boards for much of anything, lol.

Pikas have it though: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=225527

When I had the guide, I took it from Prime's frame data, so it should be accurate.

SuSa · Oct 10, 2010

It appears to me that every character's CatchAttack in BrawlBox has the FrameCount at 30?.....

EDIT:
Disproved, DDD is at 40.

EDIT:
And Falcon's is 24.. definately disproved.. =| was just a coincidence... haha

Yikarur · Oct 10, 2010

I don't know what to say to "SDI counts from the first frame of hit"

after that formula yes (because a 0% attack does 4 frames hitlag if we don't count the hitframe), after PSA no.

It makes not even sense because if we cut out the first frame of hit and the hitlag out of the move one frame of animation would be missing so the first frame of hit is just the hit, the rest is hitlag.

PSA agrees

Subaction Main0x70
@12CE0

-----------|START|--------------------------
Asynchronous Timer - Frames=5,00x,
Special Offensive Collision - 0x260000, 0x2, 0x50, 0x1E0064, 0x0, 5,76x, 3,20x, 1,60x, 0,00x, 0,00x, 1,00x, 1,00x, 0x33830400, 0x0, 0x84FFFC3,
Synchronous Timer - Frames=1,00x,
Terminate Collisions
Asynchronous Timer - Frames=15,00x,
Bit Variable Set - RA-Bit[16],
----------------------------|END|-----------

Yoshis Pummel, it left out the the hitlag and
so
16 would be the FAF but 20 is the FAF if we add the hitlag the pummel does (always 4)

so it's
[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15]
if we follow PSA
if we add the hitlag
[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17][18][19]

1 logical and 1 technical evidence

oh and I still want to know if it's possible to get frame data for the pummel animation, that is important!

Luxor · Oct 10, 2010

Isn't the whole idea of this to get pummel frame data? The animation usually lasts 30 but you can RA-Bit 16 out before.

And Susa, you should be able to get all of this straight from OSA2, I don't think there's any reason to need to switch. In any case, for each pummel we also need the damage, hitlag multiplier, and check to see if it's electric too. Kind of annoying with the Special Offensive Collisions because it doesn't label the numbers, but at least start writing down the 0x# as the damage.

SuSa · Oct 10, 2010

Hitlag multiplier seems to be 1 universal (for pummels), eletric probably has something special (pika, yellow pikmin, zelda)

I don't know the damages.. >.< if I got that, I could find the pummel frames for the above characters I listed... can't open up their .pacs in a 3rd program (I can't read OSA.. haha..) and even then it'd be more of a guess for how much the attack does.

Not every charater has a RAB[16] for that I have to go into BrawlBox to find the # of frames the animation lasts. Then I'd assume I have to account for the hitlag still?

Pummel Frame Speed

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