question about firefox ledgestall

[Hax]

according to the fox frame data thread, firefox can grab the ledge as early as frame 16 during its charge frames, and the first hitbox of the charge frames comes out on frame 20. this would mean that fox is able to firefox ledgestall without putting a hitbox out. is this actually accurate? to me it definitely feels like a hitbox always comes out even if you're frame-perfect. jw if im wrong

 

[tauKhan]

When you drop off a ledge, you cannot regrab the ledge for 29 frames (including the drop frame). This means that if you let go off ledge and then up b asap, you'll regrab on frame 30, and the hitbox will come out before regrab. However if you delay your up b by fall dj or shine dj, you can up b regrab before the the hitbox comes out.

The disabled regrab period is also the reason why you must be frame perfect with the ledge drops to stay invincible during the entire fire stall, but you can delay the up b by up to 14 frames and still be invincible provided that you dropped frame perfectly.

 

[MangoNation]

when you play fox the amount of time it takes you to drop from the ledge and jump back up and doing the firefox, it should be enough time to grab the ledge again and if you are not sure its enough, drop from the ledge and jump back and you can do a shine into the firefox and you'll have enough frames to grab the ledge.

(I'm a noobie fox so please forgive me if I'm wrong.")

 

[Tomacawk]

I am almost positive it's not possible to be invincible during the entire firefox stall. like 98% sure

 

[tauKhan]

I am almost positive it's not possible to be invincible during the entire firefox stall. like 98% sure

It sure is if you are frame perfect with your ledge drops. Grabbing a ledge gives you 37 frames of invincibility. For the 8 first frames you hang on the ledge. On 9th you let go and have 29 frames of invincibility left. The disabled ledgegrab period is 29 frames long, so you can regrab the ledge on the first frame after your invincibility has run out, and you immediately regain invincibility.

When you regrab the ledge on the 30th frame after letting go of the ledge, you are technically not invincible at the beginning of the frame. However, you cannot be hit before you grab the ledge because the game checks if you will grab the ledge before applying hitboxes, so you regain invincibility before you can be hit.

 

[Tomacawk]

wow damn, so you have 0 frames of error to be safe. I get hit and die out of my firefox stalls so much, guess I'm a n00b
thanks for breaking that down for me 2014er :D

 

[tauKhan]

No problem . I'm not actually 2014er though, I have lurked the boards since 2005 and have read a lot of magus/strong bad/kadano posts.

This particular bit off info is mostly from this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/how-pre-ledgegrab-body-states-affect-your-ledgedash-timing.346128/

 

[Hax]

When you drop off a ledge, you cannot regrab the ledge for 29 frames (including the drop frame). This means that if you let go off ledge and then up b asap, you'll regrab on frame 30, and the hitbox will come out before regrab. However if you delay your up b by fall dj or shine dj, you can up b regrab before the the hitbox comes out.

The disabled regrab period is also the reason why you must be frame perfect with the ledge drops to stay invincible during the entire fire stall, but you can delay the up b by up to 14 frames and still be invincible provided that you dropped frame perfectly.

ahh yeah, can't believe this didn't occur to me lmfao. question though: are you saying that there is a 1-frame leniency to stay fully invincible on the ledgestall? if so, why? why aren't you able to just fall off, jump and immediately charge firefox next to the ledge, grab it on the first frame that you can and stay invincible? it sounds like you're saying that the firefox has to begin charging on 1 specific frame to stay fully invincible.

 

[tauKhan]

@ Hax

You need to drop off the ledge frame perfectly (on frame 9) to stay fully invincible, because you cannot regrab the ledge after dropping for the next 29 frames (including the drop frame). If you drop on 9th frame after ledgegrab, you have 29 frames of invincibility and can grab the ledge on 30th frame after the drop. If you drop on the 10th frame after ledgegrab, you have 28 frames of invincibility and can grab the ledge on 30th frame, meaning that you will be vulnerable on the 29th frame. But as I said, the timing of the firefox doesn't matter much at all: You need to do the firefox on any of frames 2-14 after ledgedrop (counting the ledgedrop as frame 1), and you can still grab the edge as soon as possible.

 

[Hax]

@ Hax

You need to drop off the ledge frame perfectly (on frame 9) to stay fully invincible, because you cannot regrab the ledge after dropping for the next 29 frames (including the drop frame). If you drop on 9th frame after ledgegrab, you have 29 frames of invincibility and can grab the ledge on 30th frame after the drop. If you drop on the 10th frame after ledgegrab, you have 28 frames of invincibility and can grab the ledge on 30th frame, meaning that you will be vulnerable on the 29th frame. But as I said, the timing of the firefox doesn't matter much at all: You need to do the firefox on any of frames 2-14 after ledgedrop (counting the ledgedrop as frame 1), and you can still grab the edge as soon as possible.

!!!!!!!!

my interpretation of being able to regrab the ledge was that you couldn't grab it until 29 frames *after losing invincibility*, meaning even if you don't drop on frame 9, you'll still be able to regrab on frame 38 and be fully invincible. I did NOT know that you can't grab it until 29 frames *after falling off*

thank you!

 

[fennel69]

^ this thread helped me, thanks.

 

[tauKhan]

@ Hax

No problem
Are you aware that the way you grab the ledge affects the ledgedash timings. This may cause sds or bad ledgedashes when you grab the ledge different ways, for example by wding to ledge or ledge jump regrabbing. I suggest reading this thread if you haven't already: http://smashboards.com/threads/how-pre-ledgegrab-body-states-affect-your-ledgedash-timing.346128/

 

[BTmoney]

@ Hax

While you're posting, wanna discuss what PP was describing as your "nair baits" (especially in your match vs chillin at CW6).
That's definitely an interesting tool I never really see anyone else utilize it any amount other than M2K. No one ever nairs in place or pulls back on their nairs really, they all move forward.

Is this to get more favorable priority if they run into you (since hitboxes drag/stretch etc.) or is this purely a bait/mixup?

When I'm doing the same thing as falcon I do it for both reasons but falcon has a lot of range and takes up more space with his moves. So I just wanna know what your mindset is when you do this as Fox.

 

[Zoler]

Do you really need to be frame perfect? I can easily do like 10 in a row with full invincibility... >_>

 

[tauKhan]

@ Zoler yes you need to be frame perfect. Have you tried stalling in the brinstar lava? At least I can't do that.

 

[Tomacawk]

this thread owns holy **** how did i miss all of this the first time

 

[Espi]

This thread, 9/10.

 

[Zoler]

@ Zoler yes you need to be frame perfect. Have you tried stalling in the brinstar lava? At least I can't do that.

Yeah I can do it, but not 10 in a row as I thought XD so far I got five in a row

 

[unrendered]

Couldn't someone in theory just shoot a laser at the beginning of a match to tack on % then jump to the ledge and do frame perfect firefox stalling 'till the timer runs out or the opponent ragequits? lol

 

[krazyzyko]

Couldn't someone in theory just shoot a laser at the beginning of a match to tack on % then jump to the ledge and do frame perfect firefox stalling 'till the timer runs out or the opponent ragequits? lol

Unfortunately, that can be edgehogged. But you could try shino stalling with Sheik though. (Which gives you more room to counter attack and regrab)

 

[AlphaQHard]

i found this video. Is this optimal firefox ledgestaling?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFn1_3qKr6s

 

[7upjawa]

only clicked this thread due to twisted fate icon. turns out its Hax's thread. Hax knows how to play the good champs.