(Question) Irritating Matchup Against This One

[ilysm]

First of all, if this belongs in some other thread I haven't found, my apologies, and the mods should move it if they can.

Hello, Zelda mains! I've been maining Ness in Project M and of all the matchups I've been attempting to grind out, Zelda has been bugging me the most as of late. A lot of her normals seem out outspace my options, particularly jab, ftilt, and fsmash, leaving me relatively unable to approach (usually an issue Ness has anyway so whatever). That normally isn't a problem, since Ness isn't really built to approach anyhow--he's more of a wonky movement, bait-and-punish sort of character--but I'm also finding them exceedingly difficult to properly punish. Fsmash-fsmash, jab-jab, ftilt-any of those, dtilt, a Naryu's love if I ever get too daring or have the gall to throw out a PK Fire--I can't get an attack in edgewise usually. This leads to a pretty frustrating neutral, as I essentially need to wait until Zelda screws up in an obvious enough way to net me a punish. When I do punish, I can't typically get much off of it, as Ness's only real damage comes from his grabs and Zelda is too floaty to get any kind of followup even at 0%. It's a long and grueling process of me pecking away at her until I can maybe get a bair or bthrow in, and it takes me long enough that I'm extremely vulnerable to her, as Zelda has an easier, quicker time of getting damage and kills on Ness as she needs it and has all the time in the world to do so.

It should be noted at this point that I am by no stretch of the imagination a high-level competitive player, and due to present circumstances and lack of ability to set up netplay and a good, convenient PM scene in my area, my experience is limited to acquaintances (who are usually equally non-competitive) and CPUs, which are better than Brawl but by no means analogous to a person.

From what I'm describing, any advice? Am I playing the matchup incorrectly? Or is this, in your opinion, one of Ness's rougher matchups?

Thanks for your time!

 

[4tlas]

One of my play buddies mains Ness, and I do feel that it is one of his tougher matchups. Zelda outreaches most of Ness' non-committal options, forcing him into a full approach instead of a "neutral" game. On the other hand, Ness' wonky movement with DJCs, rising aerials, and using the dip of the double jump for sideways momentum all allow him to juke Zelda's small hitboxes. Weave in and out with these and you stand a chance.

If you PK Fire, do so from the air, as you will no longer be in the location it gets reflected to with Nayru's. Your grabs don't lead to much, but your dair is great for hitting Zelda before any of her slow moves (aka all of them, since even the fast ones are multihits so only the first weak one will trade with your dair). Rising dairs on shield alternating with falling l-cancelled dairs (into, say, another dair 0.o) do well against me personally, and I think mixups might be all you really have anyway.

Remember to dashdance against Zelda right outside her melee range but close enough that she can't put out a Dins. Alternatively, since you're Ness, get far enough away that she thinks she can put out a Dins and double-absorb it. Make them feel the salt.

Go deep for the edgeguards. Zelda is light enough that a nair offstage while she starts her tele will probably kill her, and a dair works for all the other situations where you want to kill her off the bottom. You can do a rising nair or dair and upB back to the stage from pretty much anywhere, so go for it. There isn't much she can do to challenge you out there due to her tiny hitboxes and multihits sucking at trades.

If you are looking for a move that outranges Zelda's stuff, you should look at fair. That thing has a great disjoint and can combo into itself well. Carry her around with it.

As usual, if you can make Zelda approach you're much better off. You can always just stand around on the other side of the stage and heal off of his Dins until he realizes he can get timed out because you're healing. Voila, easy matchup time.

 

[WhiteCrow]

Paging @ The_NZA , thoughts on this match up in 3.5?

 

[Kaeldiar]

Zelda is very strong at lower levels. She is built to punish poor play and sub-optimal options. As you get better, Zelda's weaknesses become more and more exploitable.

PK Fire getting nerfed hurt Ness hard in this MU, because Zelda had a very hard time avoiding it. It used to be about even, now I'd say it's more in Zelda's favor. That said, PK Fire is still a perfectly fine move as long as you use it close to the max range or from the air (or both). If it travels most of its max distance before being reflected, it won't come back very far, so you won't have to worry about that.

Grabs are your best friend against her. Off of d-throw, you can get f-air, b-air, or d-air depending on DI. If he's smart, he'll DI forward so you can only get f-air. If you can't get a follow-up off of d-throw, then you need to move faster. You can get something until...50%(?) At a certain point, if he doesn't DI, then he'll go too high, but that's at mid-high percents. At high enough percents, b-throw kills easily. Up-throw and f-throw should almost never be used.

Another approach you can use is jump > magnet > DJ > f-air. That will keep you low to the ground, but also give you a lot of horizontal momentum to approach.

PK Flash can possibly be used to punish his recovery, if he recovers from far away. There is a significant amount of startup lag on her teleport, and you can sometimes get PK Flash out before he teleports. If not, you force him to teleport early, at which point you can punish him afterward.

Don't forget you can absorb Din's! Due to new mechanics, you can actually absorb it multiple times (which is just dumb), but feel free to abuse it while you can.

 

[The_NZA]

This matchup was never even and was definitely in zelda's favor in 3.02, by at least a factor of 6-4. In 3.5, I honestly haven't played it extensively enough to know. Theoretically, Ness's dthrow uair kill at 80-90% no longer exists, so Ness loses reliable kill options and will often add damage on Zelda in hopes of getting her to usmash kill percent, unless he can get a random hit in neutral, or a dtilt to uair in neutral. On the other hand, the new dins isn't as bad for Ness to work around, since it is in Zelda's interest to put the din's far away from her and utilize its "boomerang", which makes it MUCH easier to absorb off of (and he can absorb off it twice for near 20%).

KDJ doesn't really play at SG anymore and I haven't had a chance to play Riot at all in this patch (who is our other best player). I'll let you know when I get some more experience.

 

[4tlas]

This matchup was never even and was definitely in zelda's favor in 3.02, by at least a factor of 6-4. In 3.5, I honestly haven't played it extensively enough to know. Theoretically, Ness's dthrow uair kill at 80-90% no longer exists, so Ness loses reliable kill options and will often add damage on Zelda in hopes of getting her to usmash kill percent, unless he can get a random hit in neutral, or a dtilt to uair in neutral. On the other hand, the new dins isn't as bad for Ness to work around, since it is in Zelda's interest to put the din's far away from her and utilize its "boomerang", which makes it MUCH easier to absorb off of (and he can absorb off it twice for near 20%).

KDJ doesn't really play at SG anymore and I haven't had a chance to play Riot at all in this patch (who is our other best player). I'll let you know when I get some more experience.

Ness has to physically jump through Dins to clank them because of stubby arm syndrome, so setting up multiple mines simultaneously made it difficult for him to maneuver. Now that he can double absorb it is stupidly risky to pressure with Dins at distance, so I think the neutral got a LOT better for Ness. And while he can't combo into upair easily without old dthrow, he can still bthrow (or fthrow) Zelda off the stage and edgeguard her pretty well. The odd dip and quick burst of movement from his double jump makes it difficult to intercept him, and the threat of rising/falling nairs/upairs/dairs makes it difficult to recover. Furthermore, he can get far enough out to intercept the teleport startup and make it back to the stage solely with upB, allowing him to spend his double jump offensively.

I think it is still very slightly in Zelda's favor, but I've mostly been playing with Harmak. We can play sometime NZA. Don't sleep on me =P

 

[Rizner]

I believe this may have been Ness's worst matchup in 3.02, and 60-40 seems the best it could have been. I'd argue it was closer to 65-35, because it was really stupid. I don't think Ness got the tools or Zelda lost the tools for this to be any better. You will need to outplay Zelda really hard to have a chance. Try to stay about 2-3 character lengths away, and shield dins which are placed on you. If put in front, just sit and wait. If behind and close, shield it. If far, ignore and wait. Play from the ground, shield her aerial attacks and challenge her grounded approaches with something. Once you get a hit, capitalize. If she is recovering from low, grab the ledge. If she's upward angled and out, grab ledge and do standard getup on her disappearance so she doesn't auto snap but you can act. If she's just high up, stay below her on ground and if directly below challenge, if below and to side, shield kick and watch out for a land to grab.

Now I'd say it's probably 60-40 because of changes to neutral b, but unsure exactly. Good luck.

 

[The_NZA]

I believe this may have been Ness's worst matchup in 3.02, and 60-40 seems the best it could have been. I'd argue it was closer to 65-35, because it was really stupid. I don't think Ness got the tools or Zelda lost the tools for this to be any better. You will need to outplay Zelda really hard to have a chance. Try to stay about 2-3 character lengths away, and shield dins which are placed on you. If put in front, just sit and wait. If behind and close, shield it. If far, ignore and wait. Play from the ground, shield her aerial attacks and challenge her grounded approaches with something. Once you get a hit, capitalize. If she is recovering from low, grab the ledge. If she's upward angled and out, grab ledge and do standard getup on her disappearance so she doesn't auto snap but you can act. If she's just high up, stay below her on ground and if directly below challenge, if below and to side, shield kick and watch out for a land to grab.

Now I'd say it's probably 60-40 because of changes to neutral b, but unsure exactly. Good luck.

Basically, Ness doesn't have to worry as hard about the dins setup, but she still has the massive range, crazy hitboxes/quick start up moves, and evil edge guards on him. I don't know if Ness can edgeguard Zelda much better. Her recover still seems pretty godlike.

Can someone TLDR the really impactful changes to her that would make this matchup different (besides the dins change)?

 

[Rizner]

Basically, Ness doesn't have to worry as hard about the dins setup, but she still has the massive range, crazy hitboxes/quick start up moves, and evil edge guards on him. I don't know if Ness can edgeguard Zelda much better. Her recover still seems pretty godlike.

Can someone TLDR the really impactful changes to her that would make this matchup different (besides the dins change)?

Neutral b no longer invincible, cancelled tele works from air so more sweetspot potential from below, but can't wavedash out any more (less area to cover vs that approach), also fyi absorbed dins just makes it go to stage 2 and not disappear, so careful if it travels out and back again

 

[The_NZA]

Neutral b no longer invincible, cancelled tele works from air so more sweetspot potential from below, but can't wavedash out any more (less area to cover vs that approach), also fyi absorbed dins just makes it go to stage 2 and not disappear, so careful if it travels out and back again

So her recovery got better? Also, is it just aerial neutral b that lost invincibility?

 

[The_NZA]

So her recovery got better? Also, is it just aerial neutral b that lost invincibility?

I answered both questions. Looks like her recovery has more sweetspot options from below, but it has 10 more frames of lag upon landing when falling from the air (20 changed to 30) and yes, only aierla nayru's lost invincibility. The aerial nayru's losing invincibility means Ness has an easier time comboing her, but neutral is still hard. The big change is, Ness no longer has a timer on him to commit, so he can dash dance for longer.

 

[Rizner]

I answered both questions. Looks like her recovery has more sweetspot options from below, but it has 10 more frames of lag upon landing when falling from the air (20 changed to 30) and yes, only aierla nayru's lost invincibility. The aerial nayru's losing invincibility means Ness has an easier time comboing her, but neutral is still hard. The big change is, Ness no longer has a timer on him to commit, so he can dash dance for longer.

Yeah, and he actually can hit her when directly below and won't just get nayru'd through, so you actually have an advantage when under

 

[The_NZA]

Yeah, and he actually can hit her when directly below and won't just get nayru'd through, so you actually have an advantage when under

So basically Ness's punish game is better on Zelda than 3.02
Ness's edgeguard game may be better on Zelda than 3.02 (although Zelda's edge gaurd options on Ness are better with Ness's +20 lag, albeit she always ****ed up his recovery bad)
Ness's neutral game is largely the same (pk fire is gone, dins is gone, its a wash?). Maybe Dins was more important than pkfire in this matchup, so this is slightly better for Ness than it was previously.
Ness's kill options are severely worse on Zelda. Like, tack on damage and hope for an Usmash OOS bad. Zelda's kill options on Ness are probably better with the more consistent lightning kick while hitting such a fast moving target.

I want to say its no longer a 65-35 against Ness and its more 6-4 but I haven't played it enough to have an informed opinion.

 

[Rizner]

So basically Ness's punish game is better on Zelda than 3.02
Ness's edgeguard game may be better on Zelda than 3.02 (although Zelda's edge gaurd options on Ness are better with Ness's +20 lag, albeit she always ****ed up his recovery bad)
Ness's neutral game is largely the same (pk fire is gone, dins is gone, its a wash?). Maybe Dins was more important than pkfire in this matchup, so this is slightly better for Ness than it was previously.
Ness's kill options are severely worse on Zelda. Like, tack on damage and hope for an Usmash OOS bad. Zelda's kill options on Ness are probably better with the more consistent lightning kick while hitting such a fast moving target.

I want to say its no longer a 65-35 against Ness and its more 6-4 but I haven't played it enough to have an informed opinion.

Uhh, seems right. Can he still get kills from grab? But yeah, I agree with basically all that except her kick is a little harder to land with hibox changes, but still much better than his kill options

 

[The_NZA]

Uhh, seems right. Can he still get kills from grab? But yeah, I agree with basically all that except her kick is a little harder to land with hibox changes, but still much better than his kill options

I mean, bthrow will kill at like 130-140% just like on anyone else, and at lower percents depending on the stage. But Ness used to be able to get dthrow to upair (if the Zelda DI'd away) at like 85ish% in 3.02, which no longer exists for Ness due to his dthrow nerf. So now, in neutral, Ness can try to DJC fair to nair, but that only sets up an edge guard situation. Normally, I'm expecting at least one of my stocks to be a "**** I can't kill this guy...well now he's at usmash percent so let me force the yoyo".

 

[Rizner]

I mean, bthrow will kill at like 130-140% just like on anyone else, and at lower percents depending on the stage. But Ness used to be able to get dthrow to upair (if the Zelda DI'd away) at like 85ish% in 3.02, which no longer exists for Ness due to his dthrow nerf. So now, in neutral, Ness can try to DJC fair to nair, but that only sets up an edge guard situation. Normally, I'm expecting at least one of my stocks to be a "**** I can't kill this guy...well now he's at usmash percent so let me force the yoyo".

Gotcha. Yeah, wasn't sure how dthrow follow ups were affected.

 

[4tlas]

So basically Ness's punish game is better on Zelda than 3.02
Ness's edgeguard game may be better on Zelda than 3.02 (although Zelda's edge gaurd options on Ness are better with Ness's +20 lag, albeit she always ****ed up his recovery bad)
Ness's neutral game is largely the same (pk fire is gone, dins is gone, its a wash?). Maybe Dins was more important than pkfire in this matchup, so this is slightly better for Ness than it was previously.
Ness's kill options are severely worse on Zelda. Like, tack on damage and hope for an Usmash OOS bad. Zelda's kill options on Ness are probably better with the more consistent lightning kick while hitting such a fast moving target.

I want to say its no longer a 65-35 against Ness and its more 6-4 but I haven't played it enough to have an informed opinion.

I think this is almost exactly right. The only thing I disagree with is Ness' edgeguard game being changed; I just think it was being undervalued so I wanted to point it out as a "kill option". Outright kills are not the only way to get stocks, just forcing an opponent into a crappy offstage position can suffice.

Oh also dair into bair still works wonders. Not a buff or anything, just don't forget about it. And dair on shield into grab can also work for a finisher.