Quick Attack Cancel Tactics and Discussion

[RaptorHawk]

Thank You LeafGreen386. I dunno why people keep thinking you need to be like superhuman to do qac without mapping. Yea it's harder, but it can be done with practice.

Tagxy is this consistent and controlled enough for you? lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6-DNKExwGY

 

[Tagxy]

Pretty cool, granted I did catch that you're angle movement wasnt very controlled nor did you actually go directly back and forth very much (which was kind of the point). I will give that practicing can take you far, I just don't see it taking you as far as a b-stick.

due to the added benefits the cstick set to smash/attack provides

I don't see any benefits to c-stick smash. And at least any advantage instant aerial DI gives you is the same as instant QA input since it's basically the same exact thing (needing to use two different directions on the analog stick). Assuming both are the same (which I don't), it'll depend on which you use more.

 

[leafgreen386]

Pretty cool, granted I did catch that you're angle movement wasnt very controlled nor did you actually go directly back and forth very much (which was kind of the point). I will give that practicing can take you far, I just don't see it taking you as far as a b-stick.

This is pure ignorance. The QAC isn't that hard of a tech, unlike what you make it out to be. It has not been very long and already people have this degree of control over it. In a year, do you honestly think there will be ANYTHING you can do with the B-stick that you cannot do equally as well with the control stick? People will have an infinite degree of control over this, restricted only by the game's limitations. Of this I am 100% certain.

I don't see any benefits to c-stick smash. And at least any advantage instant aerial DI gives you is the same as instant QA input since it's basically the same exact thing (needing to use two different directions on the analog stick). Assuming both are the same (which I don't), it'll depend on which you use more.

Bah shut up already. We know you can smash just fine without it. Others can't. You can't do tilts reliably, and have said so yourself, so don't judge people over something as stupid as this, insisting it's "useless." I think that the attack function of the cstick is "useless." Does that mean people don't find it useful? No. It just means I don't. Furthermore... can you please explain to me how you intend on doing a fair while DIing backwards? There's a pause before pika actually takes off in the QAC. There is no pause in DI. They are not the same thing. Now, although the advantages may be relatively small, you cannot deny that someone who has learned how to QAC with the B button has advantages over someone who has learned it with the cstick. There's also the fact that for those of us who have learned to smash and aerial with the cstick it would actually take more effort to learn a completely new control scheme than to just learn one new tech.

It really comes down to a level of comfort. Whichever the player is more comfortable learning and playing with is what they'll use. /debate

 

[Kham]

Hi, I've posted this in another thread but I figured it would better fit in this one. I was wondering what angle inputs would allow you to QA horizontally along the ground, and whether it will QAC or not. When you QA diagonally into the ground from a standing position, do you not move at all or do you move parallel to the ground?

I've been following QAC on the boards but I'm still unclear on some button inputs and mechanics. What is the button input to do a double horizontal QA on the ground? For the purposes of this post I'll use 0 degrees as being straight up and then going clockwise with each degree, with 90 being to the right and 180 being straight down etc.

90 -> 158 will make me double QA towards the right, canceling the QA, with the option to immediately QA afterwards? What I'm interested is if you're able to repeatedly do this and move in a continuous string of horizontal QAs accross the stage without the animation of jumping off the ground.

what about
158 ->90? That moves me in a double horizontal QA, but doesn't cancel, does it?

What kind of a movement will i get if I do
90 -> 135 or
90 -> 113?
I'm guessing the second part of the QA will cancel and make me stop where the first half of the QA finished. Do i get any distance from an angle range between straight right and down right?

 

[K20AFoozbal]

Pretty cool, granted I did catch that you're angle movement wasnt very controlled nor did you actually go directly back and forth very much (which was kind of the point). I will give that practicing can take you far, I just don't see it taking you as far as a b-stick.


I don't see any benefits to c-stick smash. And at least any advantage instant aerial DI gives you is the same as instant QA input since it's basically the same exact thing (needing to use two different directions on the analog stick). Assuming both are the same (which I don't), it'll depend on which you use more.

see those bolded/underlined words i highlighted? those are pronouns. referring to individual people. and further referring to opinions of those individuals. leaving me to this conclusion...

That is your opinion. It doesnt make it God's word.

I did back and forth QA earlier with the B button. Infact, some nice little combos having to do with the Cstick which I find very useful.

i.e. QAC to Dsmash. very sexy. sneak up and hit them with this real hard. Or QAC to Dair. Yes, without jumping. If you press down on the control stick after traveling left or right with the QA it will cancel it then and there allowing you to do whatever you like....

it works with lots of moves... Dair, Dsmash, DownB, NeutB and Usmash.

all with the B button and leaving your C stick for the oh-so-important smashes that this game is derived from...

so thanks for the thread and putting this out here for us, but I think you've gotten a little too high and mighty here...

of course... that's just my opinion

 

[RaptorHawk]

Pretty cool, granted I did catch that you're angle movement wasnt very controlled nor did you actually go directly back and forth very much (which was kind of the point). I will give that practicing can take you far, I just don't see it taking you as far as a b-stick.

Yea my angle movement wasn't great, but it's completely unrelated to the fact that I am not mapping. When I map to c-stick my angle movement is the same. Just means that I need more practice in general with my angling I guess.

And if I truly wanted to I could have made it so I was going back and forth the entire time. I just figured it would be a little more entertaining if I did it the way I did.

 

[Tagxy]

This is pure ignorance. The QAC isn't that hard of a tech, unlike what you make it out to be. It has not been very long and already people have this degree of control over it. In a year, do you honestly think there will be ANYTHING you can do with the B-stick that you cannot do equally as well with the control stick? People will have an infinite degree of control over this, restricted only by the game's limitations. Of this I am 100% certain.

My point wasnt that it's a hard tech, only that having a single button to pull off a QA is more reliable then not. And if you're pulling off QAC the entire match, screwing up once or twice less often can be helpful because the lag from a screwd up QAC can be pretty punishable. If you don't agree with this feel free to prove me wrong. People screw up, c-stick special will allow you to screw up less often (and apparently not as badly).

As for comparing it to smashing, that's fine do what you're comfortable with but imo that's crazy. Smashing is one of the easiest moves to pull off in the game, right next to a neutral a or nair. In another thread I wrote at length what the advantages to attack c-stick were, and have it set up as an alternate setting for myself. It's not for the tilts, even though I do think it's easier I can pull of tilts just fine without it. But the main reason is because there are things you can do with c-stick attack that are impossible/impractical do without it. With c-stick smash that just isnt the case.

Furthermore... can you please explain to me how you intend on doing a fair while DIing backwards? There's a pause before pika actually takes off in the QAC. There is no pause in DI. They are not the same thing.

Actually, I must thank you for this, because I just figured something out. I decided to test this pause DI theory out. Try this, jump in the air and push forward on the control stick just enough to use an fair. If you'll notice, he doesnt DI until after he starts to do the attack. But if you push backwards before he starts the attack, the DI would come about just as if you were c-sticking. Now you might be thinking "what if you're in the middle of DIing". Well I tested this out too. Again, if you use the minimum amount of push necessary (not sure what the full latitude on this is) and are quick about it, there is no affect on your DI, from the looks of it you're DI carries through so long as the analog stick is pointed in the direction you want at certain key points along the jump. I tested this in slow speeds in training mode and it seemed to hold up. Doing fair's backwards or in general changing your DI in a way opposite to what you might press for an attack actually wasnt too difficult, though I'll need more practice. Try it out yourself. It actually makes sense because the c-stick seems to literally push a button and a direction for you, so if there wasnt a way to fair and DI in a different direction, it wouldnt be possible with the c-stick.

TBH the people who might potentially benefit most from this will be those who don't use the c-stick at all, because the distance between the jump and c-stick or c-stick to a is more then from b to a. I doubt anyone will do that though.

i.e. QAC to Dsmash. very sexy. sneak up and hit them with this real hard. Or QAC to Dair. Yes, without jumping. If you press down on the control stick after traveling left or right with the QA it will cancel it then and there allowing you to do whatever you like....

it works with lots of moves... Dair, Dsmash, DownB, NeutB and Usmash.

all with the B button and leaving your C stick for the oh-so-important smashes that this game is derived from...

Cool, although I think all of those were stated and used even before anyone mentioned c-stick special, and can certainly be used with it. The rest of your post didnt make much sense though.

 

[PokemonTrainerLisa]

I main as Pikachu.

And I've been trying this new QAC thing. But...all I seem to be doing are normal Quick Attacks. =(


I really don't get how this is supposed to work. For example, I'll use Quick Attack, but then I just land on the ground and nothing happens. I'm confused. Is there someting that's supposed to be done before or after you land on the ground?

TBH the people who might potentially benefit most from this will be those who don't use the c-stick at all, because the distance between the jump and c-stick or c-stick to a is more then from b to a. I doubt anyone will do that though.

I don't use the C-Stick.

Actually, I never use the C-Stick when I play Smash....


I just use the control stick and the A and B buttons. But, are you saying that I'd somehow benefit from using the QAC with the C-Stick? I don't understand what you mean. ^^;

 

[Doctor T]

Remapping the B-Stick gives you MUCH more than just helping with QAC. The people over in the Lucas boards have been making a lot of discoveries about this. I personally never really used the C-Stick in Melee (I was fast enough to do my smashes without it), so I've already started switching over. I understand that not everyone will want to do this, but it is CERTAINLY worth looking into. This gives some enormous benefits for many characters, Lucas being the one that gains the most from it.

The following videos give a detailed demonstration of Wavebouncing, a new Advanced Technique that is useful for almost all characters, and that pretty much requires the use of the B-Stick (it has been proven possible without it, but it is extremely difficult to do without, much less master). The first video shows the biggest example, and the others show each character's use of Wavebouncing. Not that you can necessarily believe everything he says, but this is a good demonstration all the same:

PK Fire example using Lucas
Character Demonstration Part 1
Character Demonstration Part 2

Watch these and experiment for yourselves before you decide on whether or not to B-Stick. Also keep in mind that this is just one of the benefits... many B attacks have directional influences that can be eased greatly by using the B-Stick, Pikachu's QAC is just an example.

 

[TehBo49]

Question: Is QAC basically the new wavedash?

 

[Tagxy]

I main as Pikachu.

And I've been trying this new QAC thing. But...all I seem to be doing are normal Quick Attacks. =(


I really don't get how this is supposed to work. For example, I'll use Quick Attack, but then I just land on the ground and nothing happens. I'm confused. Is there someting that's supposed to be done before or after you land on the ground?



I don't use the C-Stick.

Actually, I never use the C-Stick when I play Smash....


I just use the control stick and the A and B buttons. But, are you saying that I'd somehow benefit from using the QAC with the C-Stick? I don't understand what you mean. ^^;

Lisa, try this. Leave up on so you can jump. Then do a Quick Attack into the ground, and as soon as you start to do the quick attack hit up on the joystick. You should do a jump, and that's a basic QAC.

Basically you have to hit the jump button after you hit the ground. Once you get the timing right the first few times you'll be able to catch it more often and it'll become a lot easier.

 

[Doctor T]

Question: Is QAC basically the new wavedash?

With Pikachu it might come close. Who knows... right now its in its early stages of development. But this is a purely Pikachu-only AT, it is not an overall technique like Wavedashing was. Seems like most of the techniques in Brawl will be more like that... character specific.

Though there IS now an overall Advanced Technique for all characters that has been recently discovered, mostly discussed on the Lucas boards. Its called Wavebouncing (See my previous post). Not that it compares to Wavedashing mind you... but its pretty useful... especially for some characters. Would take a lot of time and practice to master though. A few years down the road it looks like this could take projectile spamming to a whole new level.

 

[kainsword]

This single technique will make what Pikachu's metagame is in the future. No lie, I can just imagine people like Silent Wolf taking the technical aspects of this attack to a whole new level.

Once the Pikachu community can master this, we'll be witnessing Pikachu matches where Pikachu zaps about the entire match. This technique just brings the overall speed of Pikachu's game to a whole new level, and that's something one would expect from Quick Attack. I almost have a feeling that this was intentional, and that possibly just about every character has some useful technique that extends from a move used in an odd way. From infinite ground jumps with Bowser's suplex jump cancelling, Lucas's PK Wavebounce, Lucas's Zap Jumps, and this, it's easily becoming clear that Brawl is indeed tournament worthy.

I'm glad that Pikachu is appearing to have competent ability, seeing as how great his Thunder became, how promising QAC is, and how strong his down smash became.

 

[Scissors Sir]

I can already see the ugly turn(s) this section of the boards are going to take....


*goes to wario boards*

 

[Mekos]

this quick attack is amazing...i have quick attacked 4 times in a row...

question can u short hop out of the QA...i havent been able too...and none of the vids show that either...this might be a problem...so far it's been better for me to just QA to a down A

 

[festizzio]

You can't short hop because you're still in the air. You can only double jump.

 

[yWizePapaSmurfy]

QAC is tiding me over to give B-Sticking a go, never thought I would main Pikachu, but this new B-Sticking idea is spreading and finding uses across the character roster. Certainly will take some getting use to, I am gonna give QAC a try in just a minute.

Only problem I have with this is the diminishing returns. Since we can use only so many moves as you stated after a QAC, those will be going down in their punch/usefulness quick. I like many others think it will be purely a form of mobility/mindgames. Nothing game-breaking but certainly a defining trait of Pikachu.

 

[festizzio]

QAC is tiding me over to give B-Sticking a go, never thought I would main Pikachu, but this new B-Sticking idea is spreading and finding uses across the character roster. Certainly will take some getting use to, I am gonna give QAC a try in just a minute.

Only problem I have with this is the diminishing returns. Since we can use only so many moves as you stated after a QAC, those will be going down in their punch/usefulness quick. I like many others think it will be purely a form of mobility/mindgames. Nothing game-breaking but certainly a defining trait of Pikachu.

Well if you hit someone onto a platform, it gives you just the perfect amount of time to QAC onto the platform and chase them with a down smash. Their roll, it seems, is just the right amount of time needed.

Also, I'd like to see a test done (not by me, because I don't know about frames and stuff, just putting this idea out there) on the frames to do a wavedash -> down smash in Melee vs. frames to do a QAC -> down smash in Brawl. I think it would be interesting at the very least.

Edit: I agree with your very last sentence. Basically quick attack does what it did in Melee, and then some. The basics of its usefulness don't change imo.

 

[QDVS]

Man nice thread, Pikachu is one of my mains in Brawl and this will help immensely!!!

*thumbs up*

 

[Spyckie]

A couple of updates on the QAC -

1) THERE IS LANDING LAG.

If you quick attack and full hop, you will have some landing lag at the end. Try it.

2) You can cancel this landing lag with a neutral b.

If you quick attack full hop neutral b, you will not have landing lag and you will have a projectile out. Try it as well.

3) Quick attack as an approach - not so good.

There's a limited amount of stuff you can do to a grounded, shielded person, and you're pretty vulnerable.
Not to say you shouldn't do it, but I haven't found much use for it yet. Also, my aim is kind of bad though even though my QAC is consistent, so I whiff a lot, which really ruins the surprise aspect of it.

However, its uber for dancing around the opponent and keeping them in their shield a lot, while safely pecking them with your neutral b.

4) QAC is the new taunt.
If you're b-sticking, you can c-stick up, control stick down in a very set pattern to continually QAC on the floor. Pika flashes a lot. It looks cool. You can also move around by doing the same thing, only moving the control stick sideways. Vids to be posted if anyone cares.

5) bsticking is awesome if you can live with smashing with the control stick.
I barely touch the floor anymore.

 

[PokemonTrainerLisa]

Lisa, try this. Leave up on so you can jump. Then do a Quick Attack into the ground, and as soon as you start to do the quick attack hit up on the joystick. You should do a jump, and that's a basic QAC.

Basically you have to hit the jump button after you hit the ground. Once you get the timing right the first few times you'll be able to catch it more often and it'll become a lot easier.

Ah, I see.

So that's how it works. ^^


Thank you, Tagxy, for the nice explanation of QAC! Hopefully, I'll be able to pull it off now!

 

[Tagxy]

Well hopefully in the future you'll get the idea of how its timed so you can do the jumps with the jump button and turn up jump off, but that makes it a lot easier.

Also, nice note's spyckie, that's good to know.

There's a limited amount of stuff you can do to a grounded, shielded person, and you're pretty vulnerable.

How does it leave you vulernable? Usually I can QAC away or will come back at them with another attack on my downward trajectory (depending on the cirumstance), they can't shield for that long.

 

[RaptorHawk]

So anybody else think this thread should be stickied?.....I figure QAC is gonna be a big part of Pika's meta so why not.

 

[Spyckie]

Posted QuAC as movement example...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEkAfkBU9Ss

 

[Ussi]

when you QA to the ground you can thunder right of the bat without any lag either. I think thats notable to say. Its quite handy for edge guarding when you need to quickly get there. b-sticking makes it easier cause if you try to thunder and you did QA and use the control stick you might do your 2nd QA instead. also you can charge at people going through them and doing thunder right away. Most people don't see it coming unless you spam it. it spices things up when you QAC making them wonder what the heck you are gonna do.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

Spyckie, you are really good at quacking...

Um, from what I've noticed, if you quack into someone and they are expecting you, they normally shield. Often they'll try to grab you. So, the obvious answer to beating this is to quack away after going into them, and coming back.

If you are proficient at the move, you can easily move away to avoid being punished. The only thing is if they try to attack you as you quack into them, they'll often out-prioritize you. So then, fellow Pikachus, you simply quack on the spot to psych them out, and then attack.

It sounds like a lot of theory, but it's worked for me.

 

[Spyckie]

b-sticking, my friend... Its works wonders

QuAC is the ultimate mindgame for pikachu... You can QuAC at them and nair to surprise them, and then QuAC retreat neutral b to reset the positioning. You can sometimes get 2 QuAC nairs in a row, and its a great anti-air tactic (QuAC under them and nair or thunder). You can lull them with your QuACing in place and then QuAC at them or beyond them... it is seriously much fun.

To those who don't need the C-Stick for smashing, I would definitely recommend the b-stick.

 

[Tagxy]

One thing I've found, if they are expecting your QAC and shield, is to go in back of them instead. Usually the best way Ive found is to move horizontally in the air and then down. The grabbing becomes less viable for them and they either have to time your quick attack exceptionally well with a hit or run. They usually choose the latter and its easy enough to chase them from there. And if you keep mixing up front,back, and other approaches, well so far I've seen anyone capable of predicting either well enough, though Im sure people will become better at it.

 

[fromthegrave]

i'm still out on the the whole To B-stick or not to B-stick problem. I can see arguments for both ends. On one hand i'm used to using my C stick so i can do air attacks and smashes, and if i am to QAC then, i can use it to do those. Also, i think pikachu's d-smash is one of the moves that makes him and not being able to do that at a moment's notice take something away from me. All the other characters use a normal controller map and since pikachu is not the only character i play i think feel it takes something away from them.

But on the other hand, the speed and accuracy with which you can perform your QAC increases. Plus it allows from some strange combos with it that people won't see coming such as a thunder combo

hopefully i'll have this figured out by the end of the month.

 

[brawlerbrad91]

i'm still out on the the whole To B-stick or not to B-stick problem. I can see arguments for both ends. On one hand i'm used to using my C stick so i can do air attacks and smashes, and if i am to QAC then, i can use it to do those. Also, i think pikachu's d-smash is one of the moves that makes him and not being able to do that at a moment's notice take something away from me. All the other characters use a normal controller map and since pikachu is not the only character i play i think feel it takes something away from them.

But on the other hand, the speed and accuracy with which you can perform your QAC increases. Plus it allows from some strange combos with it that people won't see coming such as a thunder combo

hopefully i'll have this figured out by the end of the month.

I just started QACing yesterday, but I can't live without being able to do my downsmash at a moment's notice. The thing is, C-stick is easier to use for QAC, but using up B just takes more practice, and i feel the benefits pay off in the end. But that's just my opinion, also calling it QAC is my opinion, none of this ducky stuff. Call it what it is period

 

[Device]

I approve ;o I never really used quick attack all that much, but this gives that move so much more purpose. And I like doing it with up B. I don't seem to have too many problems with it.

 

[Enkidu]

also calling it QAC is my opinion, none of this ducky stuff. Call it what it is period

There are too many detractors from this QAC, QuAC, Quack debate. I think it's pretty clear how this must be settled... An all out Pika battle Royale!

Seriously, a tournament for naming rights of this move. It'll be the first time an argument over Brawl has ever been settled the proper way, by brawling.

 

[Ussi]

There are too many detractors from this QAC, QuAC, Quack debate. I think it's pretty clear how this must be settled... An all out Pika battle Royale!

Seriously, a tournament for naming rights of this move. It'll be the first time an argument over Brawl has ever been settled the proper way, by brawling.

i'm sure the shockwave clan will have fun with that tournament. If it does happen i want to take a part of it!

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

QuAC and quack are the same thing, methinks. If you do want a battle royale to determine the winner, I suggest you get used to saying quack right now .

I completely agree with fromthegrave. I could just, you know, practice quacking for like an hour one day and then b-sticking wouldn't be much more of an advantage anymore. I -did- play Fox in melee... competitively >.> .

Agh. I need my downsmash. And I need my aerials. And I need my aerials to finish with downsmash.

... but turn around thunder is so much easier with b-stick...

 

[festizzio]

I think quack is a ridiculous name. I'm not sure what it should be called though, maybe the K-dash. Q has the "kuh" sound and A is "ay", so kay, then dash because it's sort of a dash. K-dash.

 

[Enkidu]

i'm sure the shockwave clan will have fun with that tournament. If it does happen i want to take a part of it!

It would indeed be an epic battle. Perhaps there should be teams: The QACies, the QuACers, and the Quacks...

From now on I'm using those three terms to describe people based on their phonetic preferences.

 

[ArcadiaLegend]

I'll make this topic my first post on the forums even though I joined a while back. Anyways, just wanted to check the character discussions to get an idea of other tactics people use with Pikachu. I must say this impresses and intrigues me greatly. I immediately tested this after reading how to do it and became rather fluent in moving with it rather quickly. And canceling into his d-air. Seriously though, this is awesome. I'll keep practicing with it until I master it.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

Nice, welcome to the Pikachu boards, ArcadiaLegend.

Quack I am. Would you like it on a train? Would you like it with some pain >=O ?!

I am seriously down for smashing over it =P. And I'm sorry you don't approve, festizzio.

 

[festizzio]

Whatever man.

 

[phanna]

Ah apparently this is well known, oh well I had some fun with it in the start of a new vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tA5Mb15xtM