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Random Marth thoughts from a scrub

Albert.

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 1, 2008
Messages
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Boston, MA or Miami, FL
Yo what's up?

Use Dtilt more. It’s a great poke/pressure tool and it spaces perfectly for Fair/DB/Fsmash. If you use the IASA frames, you can often jump straight from a dtilt back into a more neutral position. The old knowledge of “Can’t dtilt without tilting/ It puts your DI really bad-if you get hit” is bull****.

In either friendlies or seriousies, you should try reserving either Nair or Fair for your 4-frame go-to kill move. Either stop using Nair/Fair to wrack up damage, and then rely on the other move for damage wracking and then use the “fresh one” when they’re at 120 + If it tippers, You’ll be surprised at how early it kills (across the the entire weight classes) At the very least it will put them in a very bad position, and marth CAN ledge-trap/edge guard the entire cast. Learn how to trap each character.

You should try to use Marth’s aerial speed wisely for everything from Zoning, to camping, to baiting. Go from just passive-aggressive general annoyance (“haha, I’m like wario, you can’t hit me!”) to full on Agro Neo-mode (“haha I’m ****** you but I’m too fast for you to do anything about it”) Marth CAN play like a walking little bundle of impenetrable sword space, if you were to try doing that.

Practice your perfect shielding/ timed SH-Airdodges/ Shield pressure/ advantageous spot-dodges. Marth is actually a really, really great character for defense, if you think about it. He has the tools to approach you (when he wants to), he has the tools to camp you (when he wants to) and he has the tools to force you to do something stupid and get ***** for it. Marth is a VERY cerebral character, and it’s no coincidence that every single one of the best Marth players in brawl’s history have also been very intelligent people (across the rest of their lives)

SH or FH DB1 Isn’t a gimmick, It’s a situational frame trap/positioning tool. Sh DB1 through their air-dodge and then punish with what you want to. DB1 can also be useful when trying to get back to the ground, the random time-delay that it causes can force an opponent to over-commit to a landing-lag punishment whiff.

UAir’s duration sometimes goes through air-dodges. Remember that?? Practice your timing/spacing for hours on end!

You should practice Perfect shielding one-hits on predicting-reacting like Snake Ftilt, MK dash-attack Dair, Falco lasers and pokes, etc etc. Try Fsmash/Dsmash/ Dash Usmash/UpB (out of PS) on reaction for ridiculously low kills and/or pract

Jab can be useful as an annoyance. Some Marth players will do Jab 1, wait for the reaction, and then pressure with SH Fair, DB, Dtilt, Ftilt, or something. Improvise that s***.

Marth as a character can go entire matches with just Fair, Dtilt, Nair, and Dancing Blade, and grab. Those are the bread and butter moves, and d*** you for ever forgetting that s***. But, in seriouslys, try alternating using Just ONE of the Bread/butter moves and forcing yourself to figure out how to zone/pressure/bait/punish with Marth’s other versaitile moves/tactics., like tilts, smashes, specials, jumps, sliding shield, feints, etc etc etc.

You should try going for that Tipper Fsmash. It can turn the tables of the match in one move if you nail it. As long as you hold UP though (for DI) if/after you miss the move, you shouldn’t get ***** too badly by their punishment thing. Gretzsky or somebody said something like “You miss 100% of the shots that you don’t take” You should be constantly spacing for the Fsmash, ANYWAY, it’s roughly the same spacing as Fair/Nair (which you should be spacing for, CONSTANTLY, for better damage from tippers from when you get in. )

Dojo said that the way that he 3-0’d M2k in a set at WHOBO1 was “because I really really wanted it”

The imposter Proffessor Moody said it well: Constant vigilance!! You should be aware of all of the forms /zoning tools from every Marth player from every era. Consider these ideas your “bag of tricks” that you should pull from in order to adapt and compete in an ever-changing meta-game/set. Sometimes sets are decided more by the victor’s ability to adapt, rather than any of the more discernible quantitative differences in player skill

You should learn at least 15 characters at a competetent. Learn MK and Snake. Each character has something to offer about how to play the game for each other player. MK can kind of teach “annoying fast unstoppable pressure,” while maybe Lucario can teach you how to make your last stock count the most (not that the other stocks don’t matter just as much ;) ) DDD teaches how to get that grab and the follow up from the throw. Ike teaches you how to make that hard read to get a solid smash attack. Having really strong secondaries can also help you deal with certain match-ups that you might never be able to figure out (for whatever reason)

Learn from your mistakes. I’m sure that a lot of top players have figured out totally random tricksies… just by f***ng up and then trying to salvage their f*** up

You should try and be content (or figure out how to be) about the other areas of your life. It’s no coincidence that every top player in Brawl’s history has had a very strong/stubborn/charishmatic/ and-or obsessive personality. Oh, and if you’re fat, lose the weight. It’s not that hard. If I can do it then so can you.

Read up on “conditioning” your opponents. Conditioning is a broad science that is used in a lot of sports, not just Brawl. Somebody could even argue that the Dallas Mavericks let the Heat win Game 1 in the recent finals, as a way of conditioning them into complacency. Let them think that they’re better than they actually are, or that your tipper spacing is actually worse than it is. It’ll come in handy when you start surprising them. In other words, It ain’t over till it’s over.

Whatever you do, play sexily, please. It’s much more interesting to watch.

If you’re gonna camp with marth, at least put passion into your camping. Force them to play at your pace/speed.

You should play with honor. That being said, there’s no honor among thieves, and in Brawl you’re thieving away each others lives, one chip at a time. So really, the only honor to be had is to yourself. You paid your entry fee, you decide how much you want to win. Brawl is a slower game.

Mike said it really well back in 2009, during the MK ban debate in the Marth discussion.: (paraphrase) “I don’t know about you, but I’ve never once felt like I was playing up to my full potential. Dealing with MK helps force me get there, and it makes other match-ups easier”

Marth has some really weird frame traps V a lot of the cast when they’re trying to get down to the ground in a linear motion., while you have frame advantage from both doing the pressuring and being than them. My thoughts on this are… “laggy aerial to force Air-dodge” (UAir, Nair, Bair, Dair in some situations, Fair in some situations. Then “relatively faster punish” Fair/nair/grab to punish their lag.

Do the “Mr. R” and play faster than you can actually think. Play fast enough until your mind catches up.

Marth is moderately light but he’s not as light as MK or a few other characters. If you’re at 110 you should try and force Snake to hit you with his Ftilt, instead of say, Utilt, because, depending on your area/proximity of the stage/which stage, Ftilt won’t be killing you, but Utilt will. You should also know which tippers on which attacks kill which characters at which angles. At some points you might want to risk and go for that perfect earliest-kill because it will noticeably take the stresser off you.

Watch your opponent before you watch yourself. Marth is flashy enough that his sword/the godly tipper should always be in your perferal vision whilst you focus on your opponent with your primary vision. Remember- He is your enemy. You must kill him.

Shield breaker and Fsmash have so much intimidation factor that you can sometimes get away with them on block (when, frame-wise, you shouldn’t be able to) Abuse that **** for funsies. Shieldbreaker also has a lot less lag than it “should”… Try buffering a jump-away-reset or buffering upB. Even if it doesn’t always work, it still causes that frustration factor.

Walk more, It reduces the chance of tripping. Marth’s walk is beastly.
Something that comforts me when I’m playing is that I often get hit… purely by my OWN mistakes. They aren’t really doing anything impressive, I’m just messing up. So over the course of each match/set, you should be putting yourself through the mill to erase the bad habits (as you see them) and make up new ones

Something that not enough people talk about is Isai’s line “Don’t get hit” While Brawl doesn’t have as many 0-deaths as 64/Melee does, Not getting hit is still JUST as important, because 10 points from a nudge here or there could be the difference between Marth successfully ledge trap ****** an opponent and marth NOT trapping said opponent.

Try charging Dsmash. The move is fast enough that you can snuff airdodges/spot-dodges on predicting-reaction

Marth isn’t that bad in doubles. That Inui guy has always been a big fan of doubles because it takes a certain amount of skill in a very weird skill: selflessness. If You can deal with two different opposing forces trying to hit you, And if you’ve got your partner’s back, whilst also putting out your own opposing forces: This will make you better in singles because the stress of helping your friend/ dealing with Two bad guys is reduced, instead, to, protecting (just) yourself and dealing with (only one) opposing character.

Having good reflexes is very important. You should do what you can to make your reflexes faster.

Listen to “The Fire” by The Roots.

Go for the crazy ****. Go for the mix-up. BE CLUTCH. You should take inspiration from the way that MikeHaze plays: If you’re doing random ****, they will not be prepared for it, and you can adapt to their adapting of you. Marth’s Risk/reward ratio is actually pretty awesome some times. There are also many different ways to play Marth, and you should know all of these different “forms” and know how to smoothly transition from one to the other to adapt to the match-ups/players that you have to deal with.

Anyway, thanks for reading.

TL:DR: what are you, 15? Shut up, nobody (legitimate) cares.
 

Lord Chair

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Messages
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Cheeseland, Europe
Dunno why you would safe your nair/fair and use the other one instead, the moves have entirely different applications and aren't as interchangeable as you imply them to be.

Note that fair isn't really a kill move in the first place, even when fresh and tippered it has below average kill power.
 

Reizilla

The Old Lapras and the Sea
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
13,676
Do you still have me on ignore?

Better than I thought it was going to be.
 

MintyFlesh

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Messages
577
I disagree with Marth on teams, he gets destroyed by MK in doubles, and 99% of the good teams all have at least one mk
 

Albert.

Smash Master
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Minty if it was 99% then that would be... every single team that ever places.

but it isn't.... obviously.

I know you're using hyperbole

Also, if that's Two meta-knights on a team... that's just 6 stocks that Marth can kill the character at 50% with.

...if you think about it ;D
 

Raziek

Charging Limit All Day
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Very legit points, but I'm disappointed by the lack of mention of how damn amazing back air is.

Seriously, that **** is amazing.
 

Life

Smash Hero
Joined
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Grieving No Longer
Sometimes when playing Marth I like to really-really-late-fair into fsmash at low percents. If they manage to start airdodging it, hey, you're making them play predictably.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.
 

Albert.

Smash Master
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Bair IS amazing. It's one of those moves that kind of defies "Hit where they are going to be, not where they actually are" (cause you move around... in the air...Suddenly you aren't where you where, like dancing in the air, the consumate tiny dancer dancing girl, with a sword out though, I swear)

It's tipper power is slightly better than Fair... I think a little bit better than Uair and Dair but not as powerful as Nair


Dunno why you would safe your nair/fair and use the other one instead, the moves have entirely different applications and aren't as interchangeable as you imply them to be.

Note that fair isn't really a kill move in the first place, even when fresh and tippered it has below average kill power.

It's funny how your "safe" is actually a freudian slip for "Save your nair/fair"

But you're right baby, The mores do have entirely different applications... two entirely different applications of AWESOME. Doesn't anyone else remember Junk's random thoughts regarding DSF's Marth ****** Junk? DSF was just ****ing around, hopping around and doing Nairs. **** is ****ing agitating. Isn't tipper Nair safe vs the entire cast on block? Isn't Fair pretty safe too? Anyway, they're both 6 frames out and they both kill relatively early.

And wait, Since when was "the move is not a kill move" a disqualifier? Some moves aren't kill moves but they'll kill you. One of Marth's best examples of this is Dtilt: never in a million years is Dtilt gonna KO somebody by just Dtilting. But see- Dtilt takes away options. It frustrates those in shield because it's so lagless. It's a primer for dash grabs and dash Usmash and dash DB. Sometimes Dtilt will set up Fsmash if only because the opponent has to get out of their shield at some point, and there's that one or two frames of shield drop lag. Dtilt will nab those in the air because... well they have to come back to the ground at some point. The Dtilt goes through their air-dodge and then you can nab them with all of Marth's various lag/spacing punishers.

Fair is Marth's best move and you're under-utilizing your brain, Chair, if you didn't realize that application. Have you never killed anybody at 110 w/ a Fair because you suddenly remembered that you hadn't Fair'd in a while? A Fair, Then two or three dtilts, two or three Nairs, a smash or two, and a couple Nairs, and then Fair is fresh. Holy s***, A fresh Fair and they're at anywhere between 100 and 130? Ouch. Also, keep in mind, some people will accidentally fail-to-auto-DI during their first or second stock. It's really hard to play "on, and strong" all the time. Sometimes A Fair will just kill at 90 because they weren't expecting to die from a Fair. That's happened to Ally sometime. He just sits and smiles while people jeer. I swear, that guy is the embodiment of AuraSphere.

Landing a one-off of one of Marth's Jabs could be the entire difference of a match or set if you consider the fact that landing one of marth's Jabs could be the 5% damage difference neccessary for say, a tipper Usmash to kill off the top (if they refuse to get hit by any of Marth's horizantal kill moves)

Hey


Did anybody know that a perfectly timed Marth Dash attack takes away all of Falco's options from the ledge? (because the range/hitbox/duration/ relative laglessness of the move forces him into doing an option, If it's Get up attack, Marth can shield by then, If it's stand up, Marth can grab by then, if it's roll, Marth can run back pivot-DB them, If they jump up Nair/Dair/Weak-Bair, Marth's uTilt beats Falco's moves because Marth's hitbox isn't a part of his hurtbox but Falco's hitbox is his hurtbox)
 

Shaya

   「chase you」 
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Tipper bair is a more powerful kill move than nair unless it hits with the SHAYAIR frame.

Also fair has varying knock back depending on the frame it hits you too [randomly?] - just not as noticeable as nair. I've had fresh fairs that tipper on the 7th frame (last hit) kill snake good di centre stage at like 160%.
 

Albert.

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 1, 2008
Messages
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Shaya you can't just name a move or part of a move after yourself just because you like it.

Dude it's like you're really smart.... and ****.

What's wrong with you, why aren't you normal? ;D
 

Albert.

Smash Master
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Does Tipper Fsmash have different frames of power too?

I always laugh when people PS Tipper Fsmash. It's like... "You were one frame away from being totally dead, I'll get you next time, F***ing Fred"
 

Lord Chair

Smash Master
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Lol I only noticed 2 ad hominems and killing with fair at 120%.

Idc about the ad hominems. There's no need to explain how something is a setup into something else, fair in and by itself simply doesn't kill at 120.

That's one thing. Comparing nair and fair is the thing is mostly criticized you about. Guess what, it was constructive criticism meant to start a gentle debate about the subject nair/fair. Obviously it had to be interpreted as hostility.

I digress, nair and fair have different applications and there's usually an optimal one to choose if you want to reach a certain goal. With the proper height, nair should always be safer on block and apply more pressure on shield. If shield pressure is really the thing you want, there's no reason to use fair. Stating that ''they're both safe on block'' is weird, there's safe and there's safer. Not only that, you're pressuring a shield: move staling doesn't matter. That's just an example.

Your comparison between the moves is bad. Using one simply because you want to unstale the other is inefficient, that's all I'm saying.
 

MintyFlesh

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Messages
577
Well, at last week's tourney, 10 / 16 players in the top 8 all used MK in teams -.- and marth gets bodied by mk in teams so yeah :(
 

Reizilla

The Old Lapras and the Sea
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
13,676
That's it? Ah'm disappointed.

I believe I remember nair being +1 on block for a perfect nair, so I would assume slightly less in practice. Which still means that it's safe, since it's nair and all.
 
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