Raziek's Robin Research Room & Repository (Moveset, Mechanics & Frame Data!)

[TeaTwoTime]

I like Robin but I have a really hard time KOing with him. The 2 KO moves Fsmash and Dsmash come out really slow so characters block or dodge. I've played matches where I can't even kill a character at 200%. Any tips?

Punishing the landing lag from airdodges and aerials with a supercharged Thoron (holding down B for the extra power) works well for me. I have more luck killing using Levin Sword aerials than I do with grounded smashes; FSair and USair are really powerful with very nice hitboxes. With opponents that have poor or average recovery, try throwing them off the stage after landing a Roll Cancel Grab and chasing them offstage with LS aerials to push them out of recovery range.

 

[El Cid]

Merged your thread on the weapon durability and such into this one, as the information is already here.

Oh, okay, thanks. Sorry, I guess I missed sticky. I was too excited to talk about Robin.

I really can't see why Robin has to lose his weapons when he uses them too many times. It's not like he's OP with them on him at all times. I'll share with you some of my findings about his weapons here and update as I get more info. Feel free to share your findings too!

1. The Bronze Sword is used for his tilts, his nair, his u-air, his dash attack, and his first two jabs. When he loses the Levin Sword, he uses the Bronze Sword for a spell until the Convoy brings him another Levin Sword (or something). It never runs out.

2. The Levin Sword is used for his fair, his bair, his dair, and all three Smash attacks. He can use it eight times, regardless of whether the hits connect (so much for being three steps ahead, Robin - the Levin Sword has ten uses). I don't know if charging the Smash attacks make it go away sooner. It's his strongest weapon, and he gets it back the quickest of the four.

3. The Fire Tome is used for his Side B and his jab - you have to time it right. I think you just have to press A slower to land the third jab as a fire attack. I usually prefer the Fire jab because it's more powerful and it doesn't use up the Wind Tome, which he needs to recover (is this actually a real concern?). The Fire Tome lasts longer than the Levin Sword, but I don't know the exact number.

4. The Thunder Tome is used only for his neutral b, as far as I know. I thought there was a way to use a Thunder attack in his jab if he has run out of both Fire and Wind, but I don't know. I don't know how many times he can use it, but I think he can only use Thoron twice before it breaks, but if you mix it up it'll last longer. It takes longer for him to get a Thunder tome back than the Levin Sword, and I think it takes longer than Fire, but it might be the same.

5. The Wind Tome lasts the longest as far as I can tell. He uses it for his jab if you do it quickly, and for his up b. There's probably a good way to use Elwind offensively, but I wouldn't try it, because if he runs out and you get launched or have to get back up after a spike attempt (his down air spikes, as long as it's the Levin Sword - does the Bronze Sword spike too?), you will die because he will have no up b. It also fires off in random directions and probably doesn't do much damage.

6. And last but not least, Nosferatu. It lasts the shortest amount of time (3 hits - come on Robin, really? Nosferatu also gets ten uses), and is crazy hard to hit with - just like REAL LIFE. There might be a way to land it after a grab easily but I don't know which one that might be or at what percentage. Of course, if you hit with it, you get some health back and do damage, so it has the potential of being my favorite attack of his.

So these are my findings with Robin. I'm really not terribly good with him, but he's definitely one of my favorites, as I am a die hard FE fan and he's one of the most unique. It's sort of like if Samus, Olimar and Link had an orgy and he was born... or something. Anyway, what has everyone else found?

 

[The Fail Tracer]

The only reason I can think of for Robin losing items is just the fact that it's realistic to FE games, but I could just as easily counter that point by stating that his bronze sword doesn't drop. At least, that's what I'm seeing.

Still, I agree that he would've been just fine not dropping anything. He really isn't OP either way.

Everything you've said is just exactly what I saw as well, so not much to add from me.

 

[Tenki]

Here, I've collected data. I also didn't bother to look anywhere else because I've been out of smashboards for a while and there are just so many threads @_@
Edit: Took some time to look. Search for "Durability" here
http://smashboards.com/threads/razi...pository-moveset-mechanics-frame-data.365233/

I was kind of close. Glad to see there was more in-depth testing already.

Spoiler

Throw damage
- Sword is thrown for 11, smash thrown for 15 damage.
- Tomes are thrown for 15, smash thrown for 18 damage.
- I can't say too much about their KO power, but it's respectable if you need a quick surprise attack.

Levin Sword
- You can attack 8 times with it before it runs out.
- 9 second regeneration

Fire Tome
- You can cast 6 Arcfire (side B) before it runs out.
- You can jab finish 6 times before it runs out.
- 10 second regeneration

Wind Tome
- You can hold the infinite jab for about 18 seconds before it runs out.
- You can cast Up B 9 times before it runs out.
- 6 second regeneration

Thunder Tome
- You can cast Thunder (weakest) 20 times before it runs out.
- You can cast Elthunder 7 times before it runs out
- You can cast Arcthunder 4 times before it runs out.
- You can cast Thoron 3 times before it runs out.
- 10 second regeneration

Dark Tome
- You can cast 4 Nosferatu (down B) before it runs out.
- about 40 second regeneration* (give or take a little).

I kept my original post here, but seeing as the other thread has actual frame numbers, I'll trust that over my own.

So, as far as usage goes, you get a mid-long range 'smash' attack that you can use to finish people off. Losing weapons isn't all that bad, considering most regeneration happens within 5-10 seconds.

 

[Raziek]

Co-signing all of the above, will also add LSBair and B-throw to that list.

 

[Rizen]

I have to say, kudos for doing work Robin mains This thread has a lot of good stuff!
Later.

 

[TheeHatter]

Could you update and add some details for Elfire and ArcThunder. I've been using this a lot on my opponents and barely see other Robin players use it.

Elfire on hit you can combo Thunder, Elthunder, Thoron. You must be in range for Thunder and Elthunder. Their a small possibility to Grab or Nosferatu but it relies on the opponent moving backwards out of the Elfire close to the ground.

ArcThunder on hit you can have a follow up Dash Attack, very quick Ground/Air Smash or Run and Grab/Quick Short Jump Nosferatu while mid animations. Everything except Nosferatu can be executed close to mid range of the stage. Nosferatu you must be right next the opponent.

sorry i don't have any capture device, phone or camera to prove my statement but test it out on a character in practice and you'll see it actually works. Also, Arcthunder doesn't work on sandbag since it doesn't activate the cross on hit.

 

[TheeHatter]

Also, about the back throw. it does work at 150% for most characters when at the corner and thrown back off the stage. Exceptions are heavier types like Ike, Ganon, King DeDeDe at around 160-170% and actual super light types like ZSS at around 120%. reasons are that you can't really move for a while for some weird reason or another.

 

[Delzethin]

Maybe because other characters "feel" better than Robin and first impressions have led to professional players not liking Robin that much, instead they're focusing on the characters who "appear" to be better at first glance.

It's an unfortunate side effect of past metagames.

The pro players generally want as much of an early edge as they can get and will switch mains to whoever looks good at first. Problem is, it's so early that instead they tend to switch to either whoever has the best results in a freakishly small sample size, whoever looks flashy at first glance, and whoever was really good in previous games that doesn't have any obvious nerfs. So we see people gravitating to the likes of newcomers like Little Mac and Duck Hunt, who people haven't figured out how to counter yet, and fragile speedsters like Sheik and Zero Suit Samus, whose playstyles were heavily favored in the previously predominant Melee. I have a feeling pro mains will spread out a little more in the next year or so as counters are found for them...since they seem to exist this time around. Maybe Bowser might be getting more attention again in a few months?

That's my guess, anyway.

 

[Raziek]

@ El Cid : Merged your thread on the weapon durability and such into this one, as the information is already here.

 

[Lukred]

I like Robin but I have a really hard time KOing with him. The 2 KO moves Fsmash and Dsmash come out really slow so characters block or dodge. I've played matches where I can't even kill a character at 200%. Any tips?

ahh, but robin has soo many kill moves! thats what makes him soo good
pretty much all his aerials kill.

Forward smash and down smash like you said are useful, a well timed up air on falling foes kills very early (110-130%)
forward air people if they are coming back on stage to high will kill around 130%
Timing a short hopped back air into somebodies face if they are running at you kills around 110-130%
Thoron kills around 150% (these are all rough guesses)
Trapping somebody with arcfire and then following up with a forward air
Down throw to up air at late percentages.
and then my personal favorite, if you have enough time/space to expend a spell/sword, picking it up afterwards will kill very easily at 150%
oh and ive been practicing with elwind. If your ontop(almost adjacent) of you opponent when they are recovering, up b will spike for an easy kill.

 

[El Cid]

oh and ive been practicing with elwind. If your ontop(almost adjacent) of you opponent when they are recovering, up b will spike for an easy kill.

Ah so there is an offensive value to Elwind. Don't forget about his dair, too! That also spikes. I don't know if it does as a Bronze Sword, though.

 

[Raziek]

Ah so there is an offensive value to Elwind. Don't forget about his dair, too! That also spikes. I don't know if it does as a Bronze Sword, though.

It does not spike as a Bronze sword, as far as I recall.

 

[xOmniSoul]

Could you update and add some details for Elfire and ArcThunder. I've been using this a lot on my opponents and barely see other Robin players use it.
Elfire on hit you can combo Thunder, Elthunder, Thoron. You must be in range for Thunder and Elthunder. Their a small possibility to Grab or Nosferatu but it relies on the opponent moving backwards out of the Elfire close to the ground.
ArcThunder on hit you can have a follow up Dash Attack, very quick Ground/Air Smash or Run and Grab/Quick Short Jump Nosferatu while mid animations. Everything except Nosferatu can be executed close to mid range of the stage. Nosferatu you must be right next the opponent.

sorry i don't have any capture device, phone or camera to prove my statement but test it out on a character in practice and you'll see it actually works. Also, Arcthunder doesn't work on sandbag since it doesn't activate the cross on hit.

On the topic of possible grabs/Nosferatu I will have to state that Robins air options are just flat out better out of Arcfire/ArcThunder even at higher percentages which will most of the time net you the kill. I've never played around much with possible set-ups into Nosferatu because I honestly just never have the need/want to use it unless I get those easy roll reads then I just Nosferatu for fun. So unless something comes up that makes Nosferatu a better option, I can't say that would use it over anything else. Not saying it's a bad move in any way, I just haven't found a great use for it yet.

As for comboing any kind of Thunder off an ArcFire, Robin's air options are just better. I agree they can combo off of ArcFire well, but in terms of damage on your opponent, your just wasting your thunder uses for minimal damage. Now throwing a Thoron off an ArcFire can work, but it only works at way higher percentages when a Thoron can guarantee the kill whereas you could have killed them with an air option at lower percentages if you were landing ArcFire's anyways. Charging to ArcThunder will always be the better option for the utility it brings. Thoron I believe is best used if the stock drags out and can kill if it lands.

 

[El Cid]

How much does Nosferatu recover, on average? The last time I used it it must have been less than 10%, and it's quite hard to land. Someone tried to combo Arcfire into Nosferatu on me, but it didn't work too well for him. If you wanted to do it, you'd have to be precise and try to do it before Arcfire launches. Are there other moves to combo into Nosferatu? Or is there even a reason to do so?

 

[xOmniSoul]

How much does Nosferatu recover, on average? The last time I used it it must have been less than 10%, and it's quite hard to land. Someone tried to combo Arcfire into Nosferatu on me, but it didn't work too well for him. If you wanted to do it, you'd have to be precise and try to do it before Arcfire launches. Are there other moves to combo into Nosferatu? Or is there even a reason to do so?

It's pretty minimal if you get the full duration but I hear the healing scales with how high your % is, so maybe more the more damaged you are? I've never tried to test it, but all in all, it's still minimal and even less if they break free from it early.

The only really GREAT thing about Nosferatu is that it's a command grab. So you can grab people out of shields (like a normal grab) and during some of their start up animations for their moves (like a normal grab). lol

 

[Raziek]

It's in the OP. You heal more the higher damage you have then them. I routinely kill my opponent and then do a (120 vs. 0) Nos for like 30 healing.

 

[xOmniSoul]

Oh snap! I did read that in the OP, LOL. Idk why I thought I read that somewhere else. Though I didn't realize it scaled on the More % you have over your opponent. Gives it more incentive to use on a their fresh stock I guess.

 

[TheeHatter]

On the topic of possible grabs/Nosferatu I will have to state that Robins air options are just flat out better out of Arcfire/ArcThunder even at higher percentages which will most of the time net you the kill. I've never played around much with possible set-ups into Nosferatu because I honestly just never have the need/want to use it unless I get those easy roll reads then I just Nosferatu for fun. So unless something comes up that makes Nosferatu a better option, I can't say that would use it over anything else. Not saying it's a bad move in any way, I just haven't found a great use for it yet.

As for comboing any kind of Thunder off an ArcFire, Robin's air options are just better. I agree they can combo off of ArcFire well, but in terms of damage on your opponent, your just wasting your thunder uses for minimal damage. Now throwing a Thoron off an ArcFire can work, but it only works at way higher percentages when a Thoron can guarantee the kill whereas you could have killed them with an air option at lower percentages if you were landing ArcFire's anyways. Charging to ArcThunder will always be the better option for the utility it brings. Thoron I believe is best used if the stock drags out and can kill if it lands.

Smashes from a Arc Thunder more optimal for dealing immediate dmg or send an opponent off stage. The Nosferatu or grab options are more pressure orientated choices. Nosferatu not only you gain health back (as you know now depending on the current %) but puts you and the opponent is neutral ground within somewhat close range (which will be bad or good depending on the character) for a follow up attack. Arc Thunder to down grab to a possible follow with the god like j.up smash. You can force characters, like KO Little Mac, off the stage or more up in the air ready to be comboed.

As for the Arcfire combo, I'm not saying that jump smash isn't better to use when Arcfire hits but just as you said Thoron does kill at high percentages and Thoron on stage normally kills at 150% anyway so it good to have a guarantee way to get a KO even if not in a direct way. I believe it takes 120% to get a KO from a F.Air smash, 110% j.up smash when Arcfire comes part of the combo. Low percentage kills would've been from j.back air which is impossible to pull off with ArcFire since it has a such short time period and forces your Robin to be in the direction you thrown the projectile.

Also, I charge up to Arc Thunder for utility as well but I will charge it all the way when they get to 100% just in case when the smashes do connect and they survive somehow. I would risk that 40% tome usage finishing them off stage KO without risking myself going off the stage.

 

[TheeHatter]

Thoron technical fact: You can't dodge roll, dodge standing, or dodge a Thoron when its about to hit you.

The only exceptions to this rule are that you roll after a instant block with shield or roll at the exact frame few frames you're going to be hit by it (underline I'm not too sure about in it entirety).

Thoron technical Fact:Shielding against Thoron 99% safe with the possibility of shield breakage.

 

[Gah777]

This is the first move set thread I've seen that has frame data. Such delicious information. Keep up the good work, guys.

 

[Delzethin]

It seems like some guys in one of the other threads are having trouble figuring out how to perform a roll cancel grab with Robin.

I may or may not be one of them. >_>

Any chance you could record a short video that'd help us learn?

 

[TeaTwoTime]

It seems like some guys in one of the other threads are having trouble figuring out how to perform a roll cancel grab with Robin.

I may or may not be one of them. >_>

Any chance you could record a short video that'd help us learn?

I don't have a video, but an explanation I left in the other thread seemed to help.

Right/Left, Shield, A is all it takes. Not at the same time, but all in very quick succession. You'll know if you've done it correctly as it will show the small circle effect that appears when you roll.

It extends his grab range pretty significantly. Definitely worth learning.

 

[False Sense]

I don't have a video, but an explanation I left in the other thread seemed to help.


It extends his grab range pretty significantly. Definitely worth learning.

I'm afraid that a more detailed explanation may be necessary for me. I've tried doing it like that, but it seems like I'm just getting ordinary dash grabs...

 

[slimjim]

Alright so Raz I need to get with you on Skype when you have time to see if we can play some friendlies. Been gone since release due to the crushing amount of sm4sh I've been playing, but I've gone through some interesting stuff in the lab and it's been fun. My Robin is still depressingly poor because I've been doing almost exclusively random battles with the other Cincy/KY smashers. FINDINGS:

1) We have a 0% d-throw to fair to nair on a good portion of the cast for a frame trap (I think, I need to test more when I get home from work).
2) Only pummel once per 55%, you'll lose the grab if you pummel one too many times due to our slow pummel.
3) If your opponent is trying to recover, you can grab him with Nosferatu off the ledge for a Nosferacide. Works really well after you blast them with a few fairs/bairs and condition them into airdodging.
4) On the characters with slow shield-drop frame data or poor acceleration, you can short-hop nair through their shield as an approach and it's safe. You have to be very precise and hit with the front swing on the front side of their shield, then go through them and hit the back of their shield with the back swing.
5) Nair has deceptively good range, and is excellent for punishing air dodges due to the length of the hitbox. Also autocancels so up-tilt if they somehow manage to dodge both nair hits. Tip: LS Uair conditions them into airdodge. So for first few juggles Uair until they start airdodging, then crush them with nair/uptilt until they stop airdodging, then bait an aerial out so you fastfall and Up-smash.
6) Strong Thoron (hold B) is strictly superior to weak Thoron in every case that I could think of to test. Unless you mess up and use it on accident when trying to Arcfire....then don't hold B.
7) Sheik/Greninja give us real trouble here. Haven't found a good method for preventing them from just stuffing us up close, and when we're at Arcfire/Thunder range, they can just single needle/small shuriken to stuff our long-range.
8) Brinstar (if we decide to legalize it) could be good for us in a lot of matchups since we can kill with LS Uair at like...50%. However, super nimble bob and weave characters like Mario might destroy us there.
9) We OBLITERATE some characters. Will update later, ran out of time. See below.

Ran out of time, more after work, I have to run and make a presentation now.

 

[CharZane]

It seems like some guys in one of the other threads are having trouble figuring out how to perform a roll cancel grab with Robin.

I may or may not be one of them. >_>

Any chance you could record a short video that'd help us learn?

I think I can help-- registered to do so, in fact. Also, hi.

The trick is to start a dash, hit R during that 'startup' animation, and then grab. You don't need to hold R if you L-grab, but using a shield-grab input works. I had trouble with it as I don't use A for shield-grabs, myself, so give this a try instead.

Dash (do not hold the stick after starting-- it's like dash dancing and foxtrotting)
R (during that dash animation; hold if using A to grab, but you can tap if using L)
A/L (should give a dash-grab animation despite no longer holding the stick-- and it will have greater range)

Easiest way to test is just practicing in training-- so long as you don't hold the dash input and you use L, I don't believe you can whiff without seeing how (you'll have a shield come up or dash too long or such). I personally find L more intuitive even for shield-grabs, so this was how I learned-- on Robin, the dash range is extended enough that you should be able to tell if you did it right just from the extra range itself (I have no idea what circles are supposed to appear, but I never noticed them, personally).

Goodstuffs (paraphrased)

Ah, so it wasn't just me having Sheik/Greninja problems... anyone who can projectile-spam to stop projectile use seems to be a potential problem, as there's only really thoron at that point... Even link or samus can be a problem in that regard, although they're much easier to deal with up close. I've been having a bit of trouble with other sword users outranging in general, actually-- but that's more of a 'forces a change in playstyle' sort of problem than the matchup itself, I'm wagering. Falcon is a nightmare, though. Trying to recover against him is a chore with any character, but Robin feels that pretty acutely with her minimal 'back off' sort of tools... I need to get a better feel for Robin's timings-- trying to FSair into a knee feels like playing chicken with a train.

'ratucide, though... if you can recover from that at all (a-la kirbicide), I might have a new favorite way of messing with some of those little macs*... ;3

*The terrible ones who'll dash-attack rush right into shield grabs when you're standing on the ledge, I mean-- I actually really like mac as a character.

 

[sunfallSeraph]

Easiest way to test is just practicing in training-- so long as you don't hold the dash input and you use L, I don't believe you can whiff without seeing how (you'll have a shield come up or dash too long or such). I personally find L more intuitive even for shield-grabs, so this was how I learned-- on Robin, the dash range is extended enough that you should be able to tell if you did it right just from the extra range itself (I have no idea what circles are supposed to appear, but I never noticed them, personally).

On this particular note, there is a visual cue to tell if you're doing it correctly. When any character does a roll, there's a small white sparkle that appears by their feet right as the roll is activated. This is the same graphical effect that occurs the moment you activate a grab, except the grab sparkle appears by your characters hands/grabbing implements. When you successfully execute a roll-cancel grab, you'll see both sparkles; first, the one by your feet that indicate the roll animation startup, then the grab sparkle. It's of course easier to see if you're in training with the speed lowered, but it's easy enough to see in real-time once you know what to look for. That's how I was able to tell I was doing it correctly.

 

[CharZane]

On this particular note, there is a visual cue to tell if you're doing it correctly. When any character does a roll, there's a small white sparkle that appears by their feet right as the roll is activated. This is the same graphical effect that occurs the moment you activate a grab, except the grab sparkle appears by your characters hands/grabbing implements. When you successfully execute a roll-cancel grab, you'll see both sparkles; first, the one by your feet that indicate the roll animation startup, then the grab sparkle. It's of course easier to see if you're in training with the speed lowered, but it's easy enough to see in real-time once you know what to look for. That's how I was able to tell I was doing it correctly.

Ah, it's by the feet? I always tend to look at arm-level when looking at my character-- checking for any durability flashing or such. Thinking of it, though, while I've got the tech down, I'm having trouble figuring when to actually use it, now-- played too much without thinking grabs were a major option. ^^"

Then again, I've mostly been playing against Greninja and the like today... slippery little nin-phibian...

 

[CharZane]

Ugh.

What're Robin's recovery options? Unless I can land a lucky Arcfire before recovering or some such thing, losing center stage feels worse than being thrown off as Little Mac. Any character with any amount of edgeguarding ability, from Falcon's aerials to Fox's smashes, seem impossible to just get on the freaking stage against. Will get them to 100% on their last stock just to get walled out of the stage. -_-

I must be missing something obvious here-- I've never felt so useless offstage with a character (again, including Little Mac). Landing on the stage by going high is of course death, the ledge attack, while tricky, just means you land yourself at the very ledge at best. Rolling without a read is suicide, and even with one, you just get frame trapped by it... but worst of all, Elwind's predictability makes the whole process feel like banging your head against a wall.

I've been obliterating people on the stage (air and ground), but it only takes a single f-tilt at 0% to apparently as good as OHKO by lightly pushing me off the stage. There just doesn't feel like there's any way to regain my spacing, and they could literally just spam smashes for how little it feels like I've got in way of options. It becomes, at best, a game of 50-50 reads where loss means death and victory means... /maybe/ getting back even footing for a bit.

Been practicing for three days against the same handful of people, but I'm not finding anything-- I just keep improving my stage game and my wins need be almost without being hit. When people 'find out' and just start shielding and rolling until they can treat me like an off-staged Little Mac, there doesn't feel to be much way to punish their predictability...

On a lighter note, R cancel dash grabs are working soooooo well. The input feels second nature and it's so powerful to be able to use a quick step-in grab like that-- finally get to play around with Robin's throws... mostly using Uthrow for its Uair/Nair comboing, but Bthrow's surprised me with its kill potential. Actually having some trouble figuring the best way to hit with Bair-- the timing on RARing it or the like feel a bit odd, and I keep sourspotting it...

But yeah, could use some help-- at this point I'm just frustrating myself rather than learning anything from playing-- I don't know enough about my options and what I should be 'going for'.

Edit: In retrospect, sorry if this is entirely the wrong thread for more general discussion on Robin. Excuse the pessimistic post, though-- I could just as well simply be on tilt and be screwing up basic mechanics or the like. ._.

 

[slimjim]

Ugh.
longpost

Well his recovery isn't as bad as you think. Sure it's not great, but just make sure you save your double jump, then recover from low. I usually have a Thoron/Arcthunder at high percents because if you're high off-stage, you can catch people coming at you horizontally. ONLY do that if you have your double-jump...and don't extend the Thoron. Also if people are coming out at you and they don't have a disjoint like Lucina, you can catch them with a Nosferatu to suicide and you'll both die. If you miss, you don't go into helpless fall state: that only happens if the Nosferatu connects. B-reversing a thunder charge animation, then immediately canceling it with an airdodge is an INCREDIBLE way to break juggles if you're having trouble Dair-ing them, due to the wonky momentum change it causes. As far as getting on the stage from the ledge, a fall-away double-jump arcfire is good to get some space, then i'll use whatever getup option seems best. A good one to use without arcfire first is just immediately standard get up (press towards the stage), then buffer a spotdodge into jab. This works because your ledge invincibility frames carry over into the get-up animation.

TLDR: We have sword. Sword range good. Fair/Uair them when they jump out to kill you.

 

[CharZane]

Well his recovery isn't as bad as you think. Sure it's not great, but just make sure you save your double jump, then recover from low. I usually have a Thoron/Arcthunder at high percents because if you're high off-stage, you can catch people coming at you horizontally. ONLY do that if you have your double-jump...and don't extend the Thoron. Also if people are coming out at you and they don't have a disjoint like Lucina, you can catch them with a Nosferatu to suicide and you'll both die. If you miss, you don't go into helpless fall state: that only happens if the Nosferatu connects. B-reversing a thunder charge animation, then immediately canceling it with an airdodge is an INCREDIBLE way to break juggles if you're having trouble Dair-ing them, due to the wonky momentum change it causes. As far as getting on the stage from the ledge, a fall-away double-jump arcfire is good to get some space, then i'll use whatever getup option seems best. A good one to use without arcfire first is just immediately standard get up (press towards the stage), then buffer a spotdodge into jab. This works because your ledge invincibility frames carry over into the get-up animation.

TLDR: We have sword. Sword range good. Fair/Uair them when they jump out to kill you.

If I have my double-jump, I can normally get back with ledge arcfires/elthunders (tend to have them charged rather than thorons more often than not). It's normally the ledge game that seems to screw me up (getting to it's not much problem, though). I hadn't really considered trying fall-away arcfires (the fact that you don't regain ledge invulnerability had me, perhaps, overreacting by thinking I shouldn't re-grab a ledge. Didn't know the ledge frames carried into the getup that well, though-- was paranoid of just being f/dsmashed out of it so much... spot-dodge into jab certainly sounds quite a bit safer than simply rollteching or jumping it, though. I don't quite follow 'b reversing' as a term, though, but I've not had too many problems with being juggled (while I can't spike with it reliably, I can at least punish a telegraphed Uair pretty well with Dair against most like Greninja or the like). Hadn't considered trying to use it to my advantage with Nosferatu, but I've actually had fair luck with keeping aerial control-- even Jigglypuffs haven't felt too overwhelming. Not that I can spike with Dair yet reliably, though... but I suppose a part of that was freaking out over feeling helpless if ledged after going offstage, methinks.

It's more on-stage edge-chasing that gets me, more than anything, and you've given me a wonderful swath of new ideas to practice up-- awesome people like this are why I registered. Thank you muchly. ^;^

---EDIT:

Okay, that advice worked beautifully-- I no longer have the slightest issue with recovery mixups, and I'm even starting to iron out some of my timings (I spiked with Elwind and Dair as well as hitting plenty of Bairs for the kill and even two off-stage Nosferatus... though, 'ratucide didn't actually work to my benefit, as I'd hit Pikachu and Dedede with it respectively...). Played against the most grab-happy Dedede (who can blame him with those combos, though), and finally managed to get rid of the grab problems as well-- the simple key is to use arcthunder/arcfire to prevent shield-grab rushes (by grabbing them during the multihit when they shield it, or even Nosferatuing them), while /never/ dashing makes it infinitely easier to deal with the rest of the grabs, as jab combos and tilts all come out much better.

I've noticed that Dedede is quite the taxing matchup-- it took me about 20 games to work out a solid method that started netting more consistent wins. The super armor on his recovery makes it hard to jump, his disjointed aerials make incredibly difficult to Fair him (Nair and Bair work, though), his projectile hits hard through arcfire, he can gimp with bairs into FD-style open-bottom stages, and his grabs are flat ridiculous. Not to mention the range. Yet... good as Dedede is, there do seem to be plenty of tools for Robin. ^^

• Elthunder makes for an excellent reflection tool against gordos-- particularly handy for those that so oft come as an attempt to interrupt your charging, or at the beginning of a match, or in sudden death for that matter.
• Never approach him. While camping is pretty standard fare as Robin, it's almost impossible to break Dedede's range, speed (grabs), and mobility (he has plenty of approach options). You need to take advantage of his approach, while keeping his rhythm off with the occasional random Thunders.
  
• Arcfire, of course, is absolutely essential for controlling space-- hitting him with it unshielded is the only way you'll really be landing much in way of FSairs or the like, given how small the window for a hard read is when dealing with his grabs.
• Arcthunder is almost always preferable to Thoron unless you can keep him in the air or off the stage a bit-- Thoron punishes landing lags better, but Arcthunder's shieldlocking capability is invaluable for disrupting his throw-game without over-reliance on Arcfire.
• If he's above you, you've five wonderful mixups to use to keep him from hitting with his neutral A approach. Repeating any more than twice generally is ill-adviced, other than u-tilt, however. U-tilt tends to force a jump (or combo into an usmash), while your midair chase most often amounts to an Uair or two to frame-trap a Nair (as mentioned in this fantastic thread~). If he does manage to escape, though, the best part is that you can usually get off a parting Bair, given how much you'd reinforced your Uair's hitbox.
• Nosferatu punishes sidesteps. You can't always get a grab in time, but Nosferatu's bit of range seems to help with spot-dodge rushes or whatnot... do grabs hit through spot-dodges?
• Jab! It's incredible how useful the wind-combo is for spacing, while the fire combo makes an excellent mixup (particularly at higher %s). It helps to stop distant rolls towards you as well as dash-grabs, but be sure not to be caught in one should they happen to roll past you or such, of course.
• F/D-tilts-- apply liberally to the penguin. It takes some solid timing, but the two make for excellent roll-chases or interrupts given their speed, range, and minimal punishability at sword's distance. Dtilt tends to be preferable at too-close ranges, but neither are really ideal once he can grab you between strikes (no other moves, however, seem to come out fast enough to punish a f-tilt/d-tilt from outside of his grab range... perhaps his d-tilt?)
• Don't be afraid to try a spike. So long as you don't get between him and the stage where he can Bair, you can generally handle Dedede in their air offstage.
• Back throw, Arcthunder, and Bair seem to be the most reliable kill moves in this matchup (for me at least). He's too heavy to catch with an Uair too many, it seems, and his recovery's too strong to really be gimpable...
• Be unpredictable. It's better to do something stupid (but safe!) to force your opponent to expect a pattern. Sometimes it's actually unexpected to fire that arcthunder cross-map, or it'll screw with someone's head to literally spam seven thunders only to immediately rush their jump with a Fair. Breaking their image of what to expect seems to be immensely important as Robin-- a foe that can't get familiar with the 'pace' that you keep changing up is one who can't pressure you to death (seems like how Greninja/Fox/Shiek sorts of matches will need be handled...?)
• Land, don't try and break juggles with attacks-- Dair is nothing compared to the terror of Dedede's Uair, but his limited movespeed actually makes it pretty reasonable to FF and get out of end lag before he can grab-rush or the like (which baits him into a wind-combo).
• Honestly, FSmash and Dsmash don't even feel worth it at any point. If he smashes the wrong way or something, sure, but they're just too unsafe given his grab-game and the minimal punish opportunities.

Anywho, this is more footnotes of mine than anything-- just trying to return the favor if anyone's struggling with that matchup like I was. As an aside, I feel /really/ sorry for every DK I play against-- even that beautiful Bair of his can't seem to keep him from perpetual 2-stock games... The other matches I've played in the last few hours (Ike, Falco, Marth, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, and Pit) seem fairly even... though, I personally suck against Pit, so that one's a bit up in the air. Pikachu's Bair can gimp on open-bottom stages like FD at 0% if you're not careful, though-- recovering high might even be a better option, though that combo game gets a bit scary. Dedede's certainly quite beastly in smash 4-- glad to have lucked out and gotten so many games out of a good one. ^^

...Excuse if this is pointless spam rather than anything helpful, though. That said, I'm not sure Nosferatu suicides are all that viable... while they're no more difficult than Ganon-cides, people feel to break free faster than Kirby inhales... a problem, considering that you're the one guaranteed to be unable to recover... Need to try it out more against those who have terrible recoveries-- I'm also curious if any might hit you out of helpless regularly once released... that'd make it not only viable, but potentially repeatable. :3

 

[slimjim]

Anytime my friend, I like posting helpy helper comments. And you're gonna need to learn B-reversing, as it's usefulness for escaping combos in this game is excellent, especially for Robin. 1:55 of this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRoJ7P-KyQU for a brief explanation of the input for it. Quite easy, and it is in smash4 as well as brawl. Now for Robin it is particularly good because we can cancel our Neutral-B immediately into an airdodge. Combine the momentum shift with the airdodge-canceled Neutral-B and you have a masterful tool to get out of juggles.

 

[CharZane]

No offense intended, but I couldn't understand a word of that. I can manage any inputs that are simpler than wavedashing (I could barely manage that on an actual control-stick...), but I need to know the exact inputs of what you mean-- the video is a matter of semantics rather than instructional as to the tech. Ike main in Project M has me aware of reversed B moves (after all, his recovery wasn't otherwise possible), but I'm not following what you mean with the inputs there-- the 'b reversing' seems to be reversing one's jump vector via the turning mechanics, which I understand, but I don't follow the application to combo-escaping, nor how air-dodging is related...

Air dodge to cancel the B means that one can stop charging after the movement trick (if you mean 'b' as in the charging rather than the firing), but I can't make the leap of applying that to escaping juggles-- does it take a double-jump? Use the momentum of a hit? Either way, I've yet to have problems with being juggled as Robin... while the R-cancel trick has made her grabs doubly useful, I'm admittedly a bit more perplexed on this one... Though, if that can be used with side-B or Nosferatu, I can certainly see the offensive applications.

tl; dr: I don't understand without the exact inputs and some context. >//<

 

[slimjim]

Uhm, okay. Let's see. The input is (be in the air then) press B then IMMEDIATELY press the control stick towards the back of your character. If you do it right Robin will switch directions, get a large boost in momentum towards the direction you pressed, and then start charging his Thunder. You can cancel the charging animation of a Thunder with an airdodge. So you B-reverse, then cancel thunder with an airdodge. If you don't have to try that hard to get out of juggles, you aren't playing good enough opponents. I wish my laptop had an SD reader so that I could post vids... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rf3Qu38MNM4 Here's one of a guy talking about pretty much the same thing with Diddy Kong since Diddy can also cancel his Neutral-B with an airdodge.

 

[Raziek]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jQwfkZ-sRb8

Watch the part ~1:00 in.
It's that, except with Thunder charge instead of pulling a grenade

Edit: ninjaaa

 

[Zzuxon]

Found something a bit interesting, probably has been found already, but I'll say it anyway.
Arcthunder is actually a command grab. You can't hit sand bag with it.

 

[CharZane]

I never said that I don't have to try to keep from being juggled, just that it's not been any unreasonable problem to me thus far. It takes some hard reads, sure, and I've had my share of screw-ups, but lack of an AT has at the very least forced me to make use of the tools I have in the base mechanics. No grab range was a problem that couldn't be 'solved' with the base mechanics, and juggling hasn't yet felt that way-- that doesn't mean that it's 'easy' or that I'm facing nothing but idiots, though. I'm sure that I'll master the decision-making that goes into b-canceling (Raziek's conveniently timestamped video, in particular, clarified that it was remarkably simple-- I've been way overthinking the inputs..) once I reach the limits of what the basic mechanics /can/ do, just as with grabs. Either way, I'm far more interested in developing higher level strategy than mechanics, at the moment-- my strengths are in prediction and mixups rather than handspeed regardless at this point anyway, given my familiarity with high-level pokemon and not-so-high-level starcraft and my 9 fingers respectively. ._.

In any case... it's something I 'get' how to do, but dash-canceled-grabs aren't even fully integrated in my tactics-- it's not really that common that I seem to end up at an angle where it feels like the best mode of approach or such, though I'm not flubbing inputs or anything on the few instances when I do use it (somewhat at-random...). Figuring out the strategery behind it will take some time... That said, I don't really feel like it makes much sense to get too absorbed in that until I can get spike angles 100% of the time with Dair/Elwind, and until I never whiff/sourspot Bair, and until I never mistime a f/d-tilt meant to interrupt a dash-approach, or until I never miss some Fair combo or the like from a side-B, or until I get a perfect frame trap between Uair juggles and Nairs, etc..

Do massively appreciate the help, though-- between this thread as a whole and that advice, I've been astounded with how much improvement I've had over my initially hilarious grasp on the character. I mean, hell, I was dash attacking shields like a little mac at one point... ^^"

Speaking of, I would stick up for the good opponents I've gotten only to get a little mac who ends the match within 30 seconds... by jolt haymakering at me as I charge thunder and sailing riiiiight off the stage when I did no more than roll... Why... just why... I didn't get a single KO... Was it intentional? That had to be intentional...

Edit: Damn... I've run out of space for replays... I like to rewatch them in my downtime so I can see what mistakes I make and plan out better methods for a given situation/matchup, but now I can't save more... Are they exportable somehow? Actually, that's probably getting off topic... though, I'm almost afraid to play more games now, in case I discover something to practice and don't have the replay to study. >//<

 

[Raziek]

Found something a bit interesting, probably has been found already, but I'll say it anyway.
Arcthunder is actually a command grab. You can't hit sand bag with it.

I... what? No.

That's a property of Sandbag, not Arcthunder. Just go into a match and fire Arcthunder at somebody shielding. 30 seconds of gameplay tells you this isn't the case.

 

[CharZane]

After rewatching some replays, a thought occurred to me that seems to work moderately well in practice, but I've not had much time/opportunity to test it out extensively. We all know how the sword and tomes drop and work nicely as projectiles, of course, as well as their damaging when dropped, but has anyone explored sword-drop traps? That is, using an intentionally unsafe approach (approaching Dair into a shield or whatnot), on a read that they'd drop their shield to retaliate, get hitstun from the sword, and then set up for a non-levin smash/arcfire/grab/et cetera? Seems like there might be some interesting potential for mindgames, though I've only had a chance to try it with a Dair-to-shield, so I certainly can't speak for any overall viability. Doesn't seem like something a foe would really expect, given that even doing so successfully is apt to look like luck the first time or so, too. Excuse if this has been elaborated on prior-- didn't recall reading anything about it, but certainly might be mistaken. ^^"

[Nope, removed.]

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

X for Grab and R to Shield... seems like I got hang of R-Canceled Grabbing I think. I need to not dash too long when trying to do it or use it to approach from far with a grab but the boost with distance is there. Mostly I take a quick trot before inputting the buttons.

B-Reversing is still difficult to me though, I guess because the timing that is easy to turn into Side-B or not reversed B. Quite sad that I never digged on Brawl's advanced techniques to learn this well enough.

EDIT: I just noticed that by holding down the L-Button (Jump) and inputting an aerial at the same time, I can do small rising aerial during double jump. B-Airing just got easier!

(I guess you guys know this technique but I dunno what it's called. Still great to find it though! Really awesome little thing...)