RBinator's debunking of common arguments. REDUX!

[Fawriel]

I can't believe I missed this thread. It needs to be stickied and the creator praised.

I actually had an idea for a similar thread a long time ago... except my idea had funny pictures.
Maybe I could still contribute some pictures and ideas? Drop me a line if you are interested, RB.

 

[chaos_Leader]

I second the sticky nomination, It's an extremely well thought out and intelligent thread.

 

[RBinator]

The more updates I do, the more I feel like some stuff feels messy in the way I set them up. I don't seem to have any particular order for the anti-arguments being listed, while the pro-arguments were listed in the order I added them. I'm currently thinking about listing for most common to uncommon, while still not being rare. I feel like revamping the whole essay, but not before learning much more information on common arguments. Of course, new arguments show up based on updates, so I could see this going till the release date at this rate. By revamping, I mean figuring out how to better sort my ideas and combine similar arguments. I feel pretty strict about making sure, besides a few personal comments to those using the arguments or humor, that the essay remains biased free. This also goes for making sure not to fall victim to using only Melee logic or guess work without solid proof myself that I debunked quite a bit. Finding the line between discussion of opinions and acting like opinions are facts is not always so easy for me to draw.

Fawriel, funny pictures could sure help the topic a bit and draw in more people who believe this only to be "a huge boring wall of text".

 

[RBinator]

"OMG n00bish Double Poster!"

A five day bump, for great justice! I didn't forget about this topic and with this n00b invasion going on, I think it's about time it shines again. I also have a preview of a possible new format for the arguments. Of course, if I actually do carry out the new format, the final might not look the same as the preview.

Since I'm a perfection of a sort, I felt like this topic in it's current state wasn't good enough, like my arguments not being as neat and organized as I felt like they could be. Also, the lack of pictures what not be drawing in a select few amount of readers. Arguments are once again sorted in groups, but now handled in a different way and the title of the groups are color coded. Red for anti-arguments, blue for pro-arguments, and purple for arguments going either way. Also includes other color highlighting to hopefully make things a little easier to read. Moments when I throw in Sakurai talking to someone is basically meant to humorous and satire, not actual proof of anything.

Arguments based solely on Melee Logic.​

Super Smash Bros. Brawl is not named SSBM Hyper Fighting, SSBM: The World Warriors, SSBM: whatever Street Fighter sub title I can rip off, or SSBM 2.0.

->Supporting arguments<-​

​

"It's a sequel to Melee, not a new game. This is madness!": Madness? THIS! IS! BRAWL! The logic that worked for Melee won't always work for Brawl.

"3rd party characters have no place in Smash!": That argument was almost impossible to counter, until E3 '06...

Sakurai: Wait a moment, are you suggesting a 3rd party character?

Hideo Kojima: Yeah, so?

Sakurai: That's against the rules isn't it?

Hideo: Screw the rules, I have money!

Sakurai: Hmm... money... we have a deal! Now to cover up the truth.

Hideo: kthxby

The no 3rd party argument is just denial at this point n' time. Of course, nearly everyone came to grips with this quite awhile ago unlike when it was first revealed.

Arguments based on how a character performed in Melee​

I would like to know how it's not possible for the developers to attempt to re-balance characters better then what they were in Melee.

->Supporting arguments<-​

"X was hardly ever used and has no business returning."

"y halo thar"​

So I guess Donkey Kong being confirmed was an error on Sakurai's part? I don't recall him ever being used that much in Melee even compared to others around his tier placement.

"X was overpowered."

"I'm Fox, what more do you need to know?"​

Like that stopped Kirby, Pikachu, and Ness from getting gimped for their return to Melee to the point of being pretty uncommon in tournaments. For the case of characters like Marth and Sheik, the developers are aware of them being overpowered since they got toned down in the PAL version.

"X was underpowered."

"Who's underpowered now?!"​

Guess this means Link's and Samus' return in Melee was unintended, along with the boost in general they gotten. Zelda is considered pretty underpowered in Melee, yet that failed to stop her return to Brawl.

 

[TheSpindoctor]

Just because Sakurai thought a character was interesting that was suggested to him doesn't in any way means he'll put said character on the rooster. Which characters this applies to, that's yet another issue to be debated elsewhere.[[/color]

Lol, rooster!

But I agree with most of your arguments and you have even proven me wrong in some of my debates and stuff.

Well done.

 

[Croco]

Here are some others I've heard or experienced-


Anti-Argument: "X won't be in because they aren't as new or represented as Y"

Commonly used against: Alice (Balloon Kid)

Supporting argument(s): "Alice is not going to make it because the Balloon Fighter was in the Wario Ware games and is more known."

This argument is just stupid. Both Alice and Balloon Fighter have the same equal chances of making it in Brawl. It's only up to the developers to decide if either of them make the cut.




Anti-Argument: "X won't be in because they look too much like Y"

Commonly used against: Alexandria Rovias

Supporting argument(s): "She looks too much like like zero suit Samus."

The argument is just foolish. Just because a character has the same hairstyle or same hair color or even the same eye color that does not mean the character will not make the cut. Arguing about this would be like arguing about Luigi's chances because he looks too much like Mario.




Anti-Argument: "X won't be in because the company that made the game X was appeared in isn't close with Nintendo anymore."

Commonly used against: Alexandria Rovias or any other Eternal Darkness character.

Supporting argument(s): "Silicon Knights is making games for Microsoft now."

There is no way this argument can be supported. Nothing negative has been said about the relationship between Silicon Knights and Nintendo. Even though it has been said that the exclusives deal is off, the Eternal Darkness Characters, Music, and story are owned and copyrighted by Nintendo so it is a 2nd party game. Silicon Knights even developed Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes with Konami exclusively for the gamecube in 2004, and that was only 3 years ago. Silicon Knights is a 2nd party and 3rd party developer, nothing is going to stop them for making games for Microsoft's XBOX 360. It was even stated by Denis Dyack on his IGN blog that a sequel for Eternal Darkness will be made. Silicon Knights has been developing Too Human (XBOX 360) and a game with SEGA for the PS3 and the 360. That does not mean they won't make another 2nd party game like Eternal Darkness 2 for the Wii or DS. The restocking of Eternal Darkness even happened in March of 2007.

 

[cccck]

This is all very good points, but how well we get people to read them? that is the hard part isn't it? But you are right by the way...

what about
X has to be in.. because they have a stage
used for AC...

 

[Croco]

what about
X has to be in.. because they have a stage
used for AC...

Good one.
How do we know that the AC symbol is there because there is only a stage?
There might be stages which represent games..
It's like if we see a Tetris stage with a Tetris symbol. "Oh there has to be a Tetris character!!"

 

[cccck]

Good one.
How do we know that the AC symbol is there because there is only a stage?
There might be stages which represent games..
It's like if we see a Tetris stage with a Tetris symbol. "Oh there has to be a Tetris character!!"

thanks!
a tetris stage would rock.... but lets hope no one is going "L block for brawl!" anytime soon (by the way they did that on the dr. mario joke topic.)

but lets see... I can't think of any more right now... I well let you know If I do.

 

[Zoinkslls]

On your second post, under "Pro-Argument: X was on Sakurai's poll," you accidentally said "rooster" instead of "roster."

 

[RBinator]

What did anyone think of the possible format update?

TheSpindoctor: Yes, the character rooster FTW!

Croco: I'll find a way to address the three arguments in general, while I may not cover all the same details.

cccck: While I do see where those using the argument is coming from, this doesn't automatic mean any AC characters are in. I'll cover that too.

 

[cccck]

What did anyone think of the possible format update?
cccck: While I do see where those using the argument is coming from, this doesn't automatic mean any AC characters are in. I'll cover that too.

Thanks, I like being helpful so I hope I was.

I was thinking they might have a stage, to rep for AC, some "smaller" things Reps can be an idem or stage, or even an AT...

still can't think of more... let you know If a do.

 

[raphtmarqui]

cccck: While I do see where those using the argument is coming from, this doesn't automatic mean any AC characters are in. I'll cover that too.

Yea, what about the mario kart stage, somehow i doubt karts will be playable

 

[cccck]

Yea, what about the mario kart stage, somehow i doubt karts will be playable

/I don't know... I mean wario has a bike... that could mean....

you better know I am joking.

 

[the grim lizard]

Alice won't be in. Sakurai likes classics. Alice isn't classic...>_>

 

[cccck]

what about...

X won't be in because X is not from the newest game?

 

[blinkd]

someone probably already said this but...using "they had a trophy in melee" as an argument

 

[raphtmarqui]

what about...

X won't be in because X is not from the newest game?

Well thats actually a decent argument, for example i dont think they are going to randomly put vaati in brawl instead of ganondorf when ganondorf was the villan in the latest zelda

 

[cccck]

Well thats actually a decent argument, for example i dont think they are going to randomly put vaati in brawl instead of ganondorf when ganondorf was the villan in the latest zelda

True, but it is common, and this is debunking of common arguments, not debunking of bad ones.

 

[the grim lizard]

Why would you assume Sakurai would put in the obscure version of the character instead of the original one, when it's known Sakurai likes classics??

 

[cccck]

Which means we can't know until the game is out

 

[the grim lizard]

I can. Alice won't be in.

 

[raphtmarqui]

True, but it is common, and this is debunking of common arguments, not debunking of bad ones.

yea, but if its a good argument you cant really debunk it

 

[cccck]

Well if you think about it, it is not a good one at the same time, you can very well. you see how Ike looks like gamecube Ike, and not wii Ike? there are more... I am just to lazy to think of them right now.

 

[raphtmarqui]

Well if you think about it, it is not a good one at the same time, you can very well. you see how Ike looks like gamecube Ike, and not wii Ike? there are more... I am just to lazy to think of them right now.

I see where your coming from but, the ike thing probably has more to do with the fact that FE10 is too new (it just came out in japan, and isnt even out in the US yet). Suppose they were to reveal ike as grown ike last week, that would be weird cause no one here has seen him like that before.

 

[cccck]

Hey that is a good one too,
X is too new... but I think he has that... doesn't he?

Edit:
what about people from japan? in the other topic they said it came out in japan...

Edit number 2: I guess he does not have that....

 

[Croco]

Alice won't be in. Sakurai likes classics. Alice isn't classic...>_>

wow.. see this is what I mean.
When did Sakurai say he liked classics?
How do you know he may feel Balloon Fighter is too generic looking.
Alice has more character.. she has a back story.. etc.
Think about that.

He may or may not go with Balloon Fighter over Alice.. but why do have to try and say she won't be in?
We both don't know anything.. Balloon Fighter and Alice both might not even be playable or even make a appearance.
It's stupid to even argue about it.

So I want Alice.. big freaken deal.
There is nothing wrong with it. My wishes aren't being heard or read by Sakurai or his development team.. and your character wishes probably aren't either.

When the game comes out and all will be revealed.. so there isn't any reason to argue about something we do not know about. Especially when the game is coming out in less then 4 months.

 

[RBinator]

Added most of the stuff I read in this topic since the last time I edited the first post. With how many arguments are popping up and the many more down the road till release, I'm considering more and more about the new format, to somewhat shorten what I have now and add in pictures and some humor while still keeping serious.

One of the pro-arguments I'm thinking of adding on there is... "All 12 original characters from the first game will return". Is there any proof to this or just strictly a fan made argument with no proof otherwise? If the latter, I might add it.

 

[everlasting yay]

RBinator wins at smashboards.

 

[cccck]

I say he wins at life,

But I think humor could help a lot, and as much spacing as you can pull off with out looking bad, because a lot of people well not read more then 4 lines at a time, oh and I think you can have too new, and too old as their own... if you don't think so that's cool.

oh and showing Ridly from the ssbm intro would be great for "would be too big"

 

[Fawriel]

One of the pro-arguments I'm thinking of adding on there is... "All 12 original characters from the first game will return". Is there any proof to this or just strictly a fan made argument with no proof otherwise? If the latter, I might add it.

I think that argument is mostly based on mere assumptions. "so many people would be teh ANGRY if they took out X" and stuff like that.
There was also some stuff from a secret "interview" that some guy posted a long while back. It was later revealed to be completely made up, but it seems that a lot of people still believed some bits of info from it. Including exactly that info.

I guess I could provide funnies once I stop hating the world and stuff. Although in this case, that might just make the production more fun. *rubs hands snickering evilly*

 

[RBinator]

I didn't forget about this topic, I basically been working on my new format for the topic. It's finished and all, but I'm wondering if to keep it in this topic by editing the first two posts or making a new topic. I'm not sure if the mods would be happy about the latter option, if only I could get their word on it. I decided it would be best to just update the topic once per week, like around Friday when the week's updates are done. What I have finished doesn't cover anything from this week, which I could edit in later on.

 

[RBinator]

Well, for the moment, the new essay style has been edited into the first and second posts. Yes, I am aware this is a double post and a slight bump. I figure if I'm gonna go by my weekly updates, then this should be updated anywhere from after Friday's update to before Monday's update.

 

[X-x-Dyce-x-X]

^^^^
Still one of the top most intelligent threads on SWF. Keep up the good work RBinator.

 

[Deleted member]

AUTOGRAPH, NOW!

Now that's what I call a post. You obviously put a lot of effort and class into that.

Windguru stamp of approval!

Its interesting to see all the arguments that have ever been used against odd choices (except Link's Uncle, he can take a sword to the head any day I like) being systematically trashed.

 

[Creo]

..Stopping by to say what a wonderful job you did on that first post edit. This is easily one of the best threads on SWF to date. This thread really can't be flawed except if no one comes to it..good work.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

Wow, I feel I just got smarter by reading this.

 

[NeoSoul]

what the fukc is yoai?

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

what the fukc is yoai?

Man on man hawt anime action.

 

[Deleted member]

Man on man hawt anime action.

Hawt?

X_X