Jotari
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2015
- Messages
- 408
Other redesigns
https://smashboards.com/threads/redesinging-ganondorf-but-keeping-him-the-same.513191/
https://smashboards.com/threads/new-melee-moves-for-samus.515562/
https://smashboards.com/threads/redesigning-link-but-keeping-him-the-same.518191/
https://smashboards.com/threads/redeisgning-kirby-but-keeping-him-the-same.521634/
https://smashboards.com/threads/redesigning-zelda-but-keeping-her-the-same.521781/
https://smashboards.com/threads/redesigning-ike-but-keeping-him-the-same.522334/
So the most recent thread below this one is a thread about redesigning Ganondorf. But the reason that's the most recent one is because, silly me, I posted on it not realizing it's over two years old. But it did get me thinking about what I want and don't want to see for Ganondorf in Super Smash Bros. I think the desire to completely redesign Ganondorf from the ground up has died down since the release of Ultimate because they gave him a sword for his smash attacks. I was always in the camp that he should keep his current moveset, but should still get a few references here and there as nods to his games. So here are my ideas for such alterations to his existing attacks that would pull more from the Zelda series and throw off more of the Falcon clone label that still sticks to him if only a little.
First off this is his Jab.
It's a good fine move for him. Comes out quick enough and forces enemies away from him. I'm not sure if it's just a coincidence or not, but he also uses his palm like he does when casting magic in Ocarina of Time. Let's make that not a coincidence by adding an extra few frames onto the attack.
A ball of lightning appears briefly after the hit boxes go out. The palm thrust is still the main part of the attack, with the ball only dealing light damage. It serves more to make the attack safer on use by extending it's range and duration. I also think it would be really nice if his Jab could reflect projectiles. It's something he does in several appearances and it would give him some protection against enemies who can gimp him by spamming projectiles.
Next up his Forward and down tilts. These moves are fine. It's obviously inspired by the kick he does in the Space World Demo and Twilight Princess. It is a bit repetitive that he uses the same sort of kick for both attacks, but both of them are decent attacks so I don't see any pressing need to change them.
His Up tilt is a pretty odd attack that a lot of people complain about, but personally I love it. It's one of those really satisfying attacks to use, and unlike Warlock Punch it actually has use in edge guarding. I would like a way to cancel it for accidental uses though.
Dash attack fine. Don't find myself using it in Smash U as much as previous games (probably because his Air game has improved), but it works okay as an attack.
Next attack I want to change is actually his new forward smash.
I find it's not quite as useful as his Up Smash and it hits more or less the same area. And while everyone celebrating over him finally having a sword, it's a pretty generic swing. And I actually quite liked his old side smash, especially how you could angle it. So given the choice I would bring back his old side smash.
However, I'm adding another phase to the attack. Like with Link, if you attack again during the forward smash, Ganondorf will perform another attack. In this case, a turning swing with his sword. Unlike Link's side Smash however, the first hit does not deal set knockback into the second hit, both hits are moves with high knockback and kill potential. The sword swing comes out horizontally so it's range is good for hitting in front of Ganondorf, but does not cover much ground vertically. All in all the move looks like Ganondorf's combo from Twilight Princess.
Next is his down Smash.
I find that this attack looks a bit weak, especially the first knock with the hilt, it just doesn't feel like a solid move. And I don't know if it's just because of that or because it's also not a good move, but I just don't find myself using it often. I prefer going for a down tilt in such scenarios. So I want to give him a new down smash. For this attack Ganondorf charges up energy in his hands and then plants it onto the ground, damaging enemies on either side of him. Has a bit more start up lag than his current down smash, but he doesn't have to worry about enemies rolling behind him when using it.
Now we move onto his Aerials. Despite making this thread, I am pretty much fine with all of Ganondorf’s moves from an aesthetic point of view,with the exception of this one, his Neutral Aerial. The two quick kicks are the only move which I feel outright doesn’t fit Ganondorf at all. But they are a functional move and a good approach option for Ganondorf. So their replacement will cover more or less the same area as before. Instead of kicking however, Ganondorf will send out two streams of Blazing Bats from A Link to the Past. The distance travelled is approximately the same as his current Neutral Air and the hitboxes are largely the same too. The only real differences is that the outer most part of the attack has a slight disjointed hitbox and that it’s now considered a fire hit box and thus can instantly ignite explosive boxes.
After much deliberation I've changed my mind about his neutral Aerial. Yes, it's a core part of his moveset right now, but that's only because of how good the frame data is. The move is unfitting for him and trying to modify it into a stream of fire is a bit clunky. There's also a move from his games that is perfect for his Neutral Aerial.
That's right, the Dead Man's Volley as a Neutral Aerial. But if we're to replace his old Neutral Aerial the new attack needs to be good. It actually isn't all that different. It's still a two hit attack, with him swiping his cape across his body and then outwards again for the second hit. It also comes out quick. So it's a quick, long lasting two hit combo with the first hit dealing set knockback into the second. So what's different about it compared to his old nAir? Well the main difference is the range. He's not using his feet so he doesn't strike quite as far horizontally. However, to compensate it has a slight wind hit box on the second hit. This is less to gimp enemies, as it's not that powerful, and more just to make it safer if you accidentally whiff the attack. Using the Blazing Bats in the above picture, the hitbox would be just over two bats wide while the wind hitbox would be the third bat. However, its biggest change is that it reflect projectiles. Ganondorf will reflect projectiles with either the hit box from the attack or with his own hurtbox throughout the attack. It will still take somewhat precise aiming to hit enemy projectiles, but merely having the option means opponents need to be a lot more wary about throwing projectiles out at Ganondorf.Finally, the attack would have inordinately low landing lag, to the point that he can repeatedly shot hop into it.
Since I've remove the Blazing Bats from his neutral aerial, it's probably best to leave them off the moveset entirely. But I put a lot of work into those gifs (despite what it looks XD ) so I'm keeping them.
His side aerial is fine, it’s been with him since Melee and it’s a reference to his games. His up aerial however, I am giving a similar treatment to his neutral air. Less because I don’t like it visually and more because I don’t want him summoning flaming bats for just one attack. That would look a bit random. For this move Ganondorf uses his arm instead of his legs. So it is quite visually different to his over the head tumble. Before Ganondorf’s toes had a weaker hit box than his legs, here something similar will happen, with Ganondorf’s arm having a stronger hit box than the bats themselves that he’s summoning. Like his new neutral aerial, this attack too is considered a fire attack.
Now that I think about it, just to squeeze the bats into one more move, they could also be featured in his up tilt as an effect. He's already dealing with fire and an explosion in that attack anyway.
Ganondorf’s back air is quick and effective, but I still want to change it because it’s an relic of Cpt Falcon and I think there’s a better character Ganondorf can steal from for a back aerial. That being Corrin’s cape attack. Ganondorf noticeably uses his cape in the Ocarina of Time battle, so I think having a cape attack fits him nicely. It would come out slower than current back aerial, which is surprisingly fast.
Down aerial thunder stomp is a classic, so it’s left alone. And that brings us to his grabs. Which is probably the thing I would most like to change about Ganondorf from a mechanical point. His grab range utterly sucks. Which is a shame because his throws are pretty decent. So I would give Ganondorf a grab that’s more similar to Pac-Man, much higher range, but fitting for him, quite slow and risky. Like most of Ganondorf’s arsenal, it’s something you have to judge carefully when to use.
On his actual throws, For his foward throws I'd change it from one upper cut to two uppercuts followed by a punch to the face, in reference to the punch rush Ganondorf uses in Ocarina of Time. This knocks enemies downwards into the stage and sends them sliding quite far. Enemies might instinctively tech it which actually leaves them open to follow up attacks.
Down and back throws are fine. Pummel could be changed to something more appropriate than a knee, but mechanically it’s hard to get a pummel wrong. The only other thing I have something significant to talk about is his up throw.
Ganondorf’s throws are good for leading into his combos (if you can ever actually grab someone), but he doesn’t have any kill throws. I would turn his up throw into a kill throw. Ganondorf holds his opponent up in the air and strikes them with lightning. This is reminiscent of Demise charging up his skyward strike, only Ganondorf is using his enemy as the sword.
Only last thing I’ll note is that his get up attacks are generic and fine, but his old down smash could be retooled into his get up attack, only weaker. Then again if it retained a similar power it would be rather hilarious and unique for a character to have such a strong get up attack.
I'd love to hear what people think about these ideas. I think it's a great way to modify his existing moveset not only to make it better, but also to look more interesting and take more inspiration from his games.
https://smashboards.com/threads/redesinging-ganondorf-but-keeping-him-the-same.513191/
https://smashboards.com/threads/new-melee-moves-for-samus.515562/
https://smashboards.com/threads/redesigning-link-but-keeping-him-the-same.518191/
https://smashboards.com/threads/redeisgning-kirby-but-keeping-him-the-same.521634/
https://smashboards.com/threads/redesigning-zelda-but-keeping-her-the-same.521781/
https://smashboards.com/threads/redesigning-ike-but-keeping-him-the-same.522334/
So the most recent thread below this one is a thread about redesigning Ganondorf. But the reason that's the most recent one is because, silly me, I posted on it not realizing it's over two years old. But it did get me thinking about what I want and don't want to see for Ganondorf in Super Smash Bros. I think the desire to completely redesign Ganondorf from the ground up has died down since the release of Ultimate because they gave him a sword for his smash attacks. I was always in the camp that he should keep his current moveset, but should still get a few references here and there as nods to his games. So here are my ideas for such alterations to his existing attacks that would pull more from the Zelda series and throw off more of the Falcon clone label that still sticks to him if only a little.
First off this is his Jab.
It's a good fine move for him. Comes out quick enough and forces enemies away from him. I'm not sure if it's just a coincidence or not, but he also uses his palm like he does when casting magic in Ocarina of Time. Let's make that not a coincidence by adding an extra few frames onto the attack.
A ball of lightning appears briefly after the hit boxes go out. The palm thrust is still the main part of the attack, with the ball only dealing light damage. It serves more to make the attack safer on use by extending it's range and duration. I also think it would be really nice if his Jab could reflect projectiles. It's something he does in several appearances and it would give him some protection against enemies who can gimp him by spamming projectiles.
Next up his Forward and down tilts. These moves are fine. It's obviously inspired by the kick he does in the Space World Demo and Twilight Princess. It is a bit repetitive that he uses the same sort of kick for both attacks, but both of them are decent attacks so I don't see any pressing need to change them.
His Up tilt is a pretty odd attack that a lot of people complain about, but personally I love it. It's one of those really satisfying attacks to use, and unlike Warlock Punch it actually has use in edge guarding. I would like a way to cancel it for accidental uses though.
Dash attack fine. Don't find myself using it in Smash U as much as previous games (probably because his Air game has improved), but it works okay as an attack.
Next attack I want to change is actually his new forward smash.
I find it's not quite as useful as his Up Smash and it hits more or less the same area. And while everyone celebrating over him finally having a sword, it's a pretty generic swing. And I actually quite liked his old side smash, especially how you could angle it. So given the choice I would bring back his old side smash.
However, I'm adding another phase to the attack. Like with Link, if you attack again during the forward smash, Ganondorf will perform another attack. In this case, a turning swing with his sword. Unlike Link's side Smash however, the first hit does not deal set knockback into the second hit, both hits are moves with high knockback and kill potential. The sword swing comes out horizontally so it's range is good for hitting in front of Ganondorf, but does not cover much ground vertically. All in all the move looks like Ganondorf's combo from Twilight Princess.
Next is his down Smash.
I find that this attack looks a bit weak, especially the first knock with the hilt, it just doesn't feel like a solid move. And I don't know if it's just because of that or because it's also not a good move, but I just don't find myself using it often. I prefer going for a down tilt in such scenarios. So I want to give him a new down smash. For this attack Ganondorf charges up energy in his hands and then plants it onto the ground, damaging enemies on either side of him. Has a bit more start up lag than his current down smash, but he doesn't have to worry about enemies rolling behind him when using it.
Now we move onto his Aerials. Despite making this thread, I am pretty much fine with all of Ganondorf’s moves from an aesthetic point of view,
After much deliberation I've changed my mind about his neutral Aerial. Yes, it's a core part of his moveset right now, but that's only because of how good the frame data is. The move is unfitting for him and trying to modify it into a stream of fire is a bit clunky. There's also a move from his games that is perfect for his Neutral Aerial.
That's right, the Dead Man's Volley as a Neutral Aerial. But if we're to replace his old Neutral Aerial the new attack needs to be good. It actually isn't all that different. It's still a two hit attack, with him swiping his cape across his body and then outwards again for the second hit. It also comes out quick. So it's a quick, long lasting two hit combo with the first hit dealing set knockback into the second. So what's different about it compared to his old nAir? Well the main difference is the range. He's not using his feet so he doesn't strike quite as far horizontally. However, to compensate it has a slight wind hit box on the second hit. This is less to gimp enemies, as it's not that powerful, and more just to make it safer if you accidentally whiff the attack. Using the Blazing Bats in the above picture, the hitbox would be just over two bats wide while the wind hitbox would be the third bat. However, its biggest change is that it reflect projectiles. Ganondorf will reflect projectiles with either the hit box from the attack or with his own hurtbox throughout the attack. It will still take somewhat precise aiming to hit enemy projectiles, but merely having the option means opponents need to be a lot more wary about throwing projectiles out at Ganondorf.Finally, the attack would have inordinately low landing lag, to the point that he can repeatedly shot hop into it.
Since I've remove the Blazing Bats from his neutral aerial, it's probably best to leave them off the moveset entirely. But I put a lot of work into those gifs (despite what it looks XD ) so I'm keeping them.
His side aerial is fine, it’s been with him since Melee and it’s a reference to his games. His up aerial however, I am giving a similar treatment to his neutral air. Less because I don’t like it visually and more because I don’t want him summoning flaming bats for just one attack. That would look a bit random. For this move Ganondorf uses his arm instead of his legs. So it is quite visually different to his over the head tumble. Before Ganondorf’s toes had a weaker hit box than his legs, here something similar will happen, with Ganondorf’s arm having a stronger hit box than the bats themselves that he’s summoning. Like his new neutral aerial, this attack too is considered a fire attack.
Now that I think about it, just to squeeze the bats into one more move, they could also be featured in his up tilt as an effect. He's already dealing with fire and an explosion in that attack anyway.
Ganondorf’s back air is quick and effective, but I still want to change it because it’s an relic of Cpt Falcon and I think there’s a better character Ganondorf can steal from for a back aerial. That being Corrin’s cape attack. Ganondorf noticeably uses his cape in the Ocarina of Time battle, so I think having a cape attack fits him nicely. It would come out slower than current back aerial, which is surprisingly fast.
Down aerial thunder stomp is a classic, so it’s left alone. And that brings us to his grabs. Which is probably the thing I would most like to change about Ganondorf from a mechanical point. His grab range utterly sucks. Which is a shame because his throws are pretty decent. So I would give Ganondorf a grab that’s more similar to Pac-Man, much higher range, but fitting for him, quite slow and risky. Like most of Ganondorf’s arsenal, it’s something you have to judge carefully when to use.
On his actual throws, For his foward throws I'd change it from one upper cut to two uppercuts followed by a punch to the face, in reference to the punch rush Ganondorf uses in Ocarina of Time. This knocks enemies downwards into the stage and sends them sliding quite far. Enemies might instinctively tech it which actually leaves them open to follow up attacks.
Down and back throws are fine. Pummel could be changed to something more appropriate than a knee, but mechanically it’s hard to get a pummel wrong. The only other thing I have something significant to talk about is his up throw.
Ganondorf’s throws are good for leading into his combos (if you can ever actually grab someone), but he doesn’t have any kill throws. I would turn his up throw into a kill throw. Ganondorf holds his opponent up in the air and strikes them with lightning. This is reminiscent of Demise charging up his skyward strike, only Ganondorf is using his enemy as the sword.
Only last thing I’ll note is that his get up attacks are generic and fine, but his old down smash could be retooled into his get up attack, only weaker. Then again if it retained a similar power it would be rather hilarious and unique for a character to have such a strong get up attack.
I'd love to hear what people think about these ideas. I think it's a great way to modify his existing moveset not only to make it better, but also to look more interesting and take more inspiration from his games.
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