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Request: A Fireproof thread.

Raustblackdragon

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 26, 2008
Messages
101
Please read this entire post before you post a reply.

What do I mean by Fireproof?

I mean no fire, or more specifically, no flames.

a non-flaming thread.

I'd like to see if it would be okay to make a thread where people can post things without fear of being flamed, mocked, or presented with absurdly large pictures of shame, like the Ridley facepalm.

Why?

Because I believe that there are people on this forum who would like a place to express their views without being ridiculed because of poor debate skills, uncommon opinions, or even poor language skills. All too often have I seen threads whose OP's idea has become the object of ridicule, and anyone who WOULD support their idea would be too scared of being flamed themselves to say anything.

This is a FORUM. A place where people should feel free to post what they REALLY think, not what is "Safe" to say.

The Rules:

1: No Flaming, obviously. If you can't think of anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. Also, if something is a matter of opinion, don't argue against it.
1a: You CAN, however, point out any FACTUAL mistakes the poster made.

For example, suppose somebody said: "Hyrule Temple should not be tournament banned".

You canNOT say "You don't know anything! Hyrule Temple is THE most unfair stage in the game, filled with opportunities for camping, a fight club, and a ridiculous size."

But you CAN say: "Actually, it's just called 'Temple'. Hyrule is just a title, like 'EagleLand' for 'Onett'."

Of course, most likely nobody WOULD say that last thing, but you get the picture. If somebody says anything FACTUALLY wrong, that's fine to point out. Otherwise, let them express their views.

2: Don't post anything here unless you're sure that it will be significantly flamed elsewhere. Although, if you already posted it elsewhere, with bad results, then feel free to re-post it here. This rule is actually more of a request, to avoid instances where people post simply to create the illusion of an idea that is unopposed.

3: There are no "N00B" ideas. I mean that the same way people say "There are no wrong answers". Feel free to say or support any idea.

4: This thread will NOT protect you from being banned. Abusive posts that would get you banned will not be tolerated here.





OKAY. Now that that's settled, I'd like to point out that this is not that thread. This is a thread to propose the idea.

If you would like this board to have such a fireproof thread, please say so.

I strongly support the idea, and I hope others agree with me.
 

Jack Kieser

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 11, 2008
Messages
2,961
Location
Seattle, WA
I'll go ahead and start. *ahem*

Since Brawl is such a different game altogether, maybe we should think about it in ways completely unlike any previous fighting games. Maybe a lack of combos is a good thing, considering we've been focusing on combos ever since SF2 (so, for a LONG time). Maybe items WILL help balance out Brawl's competitive play in the long term (like weaken the effect of camping by giving everyone projectiles).

Maybe tech skill isn't always more important than mental skill.

Maybe it is possible to have reactionary mastery of luck. That means be so good at prediction that you are always taking luck into account, so much so that it never catches you off guard.
 

Dime

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 26, 2008
Messages
225
Location
Ruto, Pennsylvania
Good post Jack
I agree with thinking outside the box to find better competition in brawl. Maybe we should give some if not all items a chance in brawl. Also I am a big believer that randomness does not negate competition. One of my favorite aspects of brawl is the many options you have to play it and those options should be looked at more closely.
 

DeliciousCake

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Messages
1,969
Location
Fairfax, VA
3DS FC
4313-1513-6404
I mean, not attempting to flame the thread or bring down your idea, but it'll probably get violated pretty quick without constant mod overview or putting an actual filter on the board, which really won't work. Also, people will probably look at it as a haven for posting stupid/constantly reposted threads. Other than that, I guess it's a good idea, but board-wide changes in order to prevent this would probably be a better bet.

EDIT: Hence, see previous post.
 

Dime

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 26, 2008
Messages
225
Location
Ruto, Pennsylvania
lol @ the above post.

You can't master luck. What a stupid *** idea to have. You cannot predict what items will fall where, it's not logical.
I am not saying you can master luck, but you can compensate for it. Having a random element or luck involved does not make something non-competitive. Poker is competitive and played professionally and the pros know how to overcome a streak of bad luck.

By the way you missed the point of this thread. If you don’t agree with my ideas post your own instead of bashing mine.
 

Da Black Rabbit

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 4, 2008
Messages
312
Location
Ephrata, PA
NNID
BlackRabbit87
3DS FC
1650-1675-4360
I'd like to see if it would be okay to make a thread where people can post things without fear of being flamed, mocked, or presented with absurdly large pictures of shame, like the Ridley facepalm.

.
:laugh:

Just funny how I read the thread in which you received it...
 

Dime

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 26, 2008
Messages
225
Location
Ruto, Pennsylvania
I mean, not attempting to flame the thread or bring down your idea, but it'll probably get violated pretty quick without constant mod overview or putting an actual filter on the board, which really won't work. Also, people will probably look at it as a haven for posting stupid/constantly reposted threads. Other than that, I guess it's a good idea, but board-wide changes in order to prevent this would probably be a better bet.

EDIT: Hence, see previous post.
Your right I doubt this thread will work the way OP wants it too but it’s a good idea and I’ll support it.
 

choknater

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 25, 2002
Messages
27,296
Location
Modesto, CA
NNID
choknater
roy has fire
charizard has fire
bowser has fire

i don't see how you can avoid it

but it's ok i use ic's

but then when u melt them it makes water

which can kill olimar's pikmin
 

LouisLeGros

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
403
Location
Seattle
Well I never really have a problem with people trying to debate me, troll me, flame me or etc. It might just be my experience at other sites.

Competitive players have fun (and I mean tourney types, not just wanting to win). There will always be fans that will want to play a game competitively . However, a game can pretty much destroy a competitive scene (Soul Calibur 3).


Also not being able to tear someone apart for poor idea presentation is upsetting for me, but I will try to respect the op.
 

everlasting yayuhzz

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 12, 2007
Messages
2,876
Location
swaggin' to da maxxx
I am not saying you can master luck, but you can compensate for it. Having a random element or luck involved does not make something non-competitive. Poker is competitive and played professionally and the pros know how to overcome a streak of bad luck.

By the way you missed the point of this thread. If you don’t agree with my ideas post your own instead of bashing mine.
You cannot compare Poker and Smash, they aren't even remotely similar.
 

Mann

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 1, 2005
Messages
836
Location
Campbell, CA + Tuscon, AZ
If you get flamed and don't want to deal with it, ignore it. If other people join in the campfire, you can work around it or ignore it.

Forums tend to be a favorite place to argue without actually seeing the opposite side.
 

Dime

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 26, 2008
Messages
225
Location
Ruto, Pennsylvania
I really don't care about flaming either. I just thought this would be a good place to post ideas that are controversial.
 

Raustblackdragon

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 26, 2008
Messages
101
I mean, not attempting to flame the thread or bring down your idea, but it'll probably get violated pretty quick without constant mod overview or putting an actual filter on the board, which really won't work. Also, people will probably look at it as a haven for posting stupid/constantly reposted threads. Other than that, I guess it's a good idea, but board-wide changes in order to prevent this would probably be a better bet.

EDIT: Hence, see previous post.
yeah, that's why I said at the bottom that I just wanted to see who would support that idea. I don't have the authority to uphold any of its rules.

I'm glad it worked, at least for the first 20 minutes or so.
 

everlasting yayuhzz

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 12, 2007
Messages
2,876
Location
swaggin' to da maxxx
Both are:
A game
Competitive
Played in tournaments
Involve strategy
Require skill
Easy to learn, hard to master
Have mind-games
Are played for cash or casually

Is that enough or should I think of more?
How about:

Smash is a video game based around fighting. Poker is a card game based around luck and guessing.
 

LouisLeGros

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
403
Location
Seattle
If you get flamed and don't want to deal with it, ignore it. If other people join in the campfire, you can work around it or ignore it.

Forums tend to be a favorite place to argue without actually seeing the opposite side.
True, but I've got the option to block those people that just go on and on ignoring all criticism.
It sort of reminds me of a creationist author who went from city to city to hold public debates and he always used the arguments and the same data. The funny thing was that some of his "data" which he presented as "fact" was downright wrong, I think it was about a fossil record or something.

It sort of reminds me of creationists that always say evolution says we came from monkeys, no matter how many times it is pointed out to them that the actual claim is that we share a common ancestry.
 

DeliciousCake

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Fairfax, VA
3DS FC
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Poker is more about calculating odds rather than pure luck. Your right though, you did point out the obvious differences (video game vs card game).
Counting cards will get you kicked out of a casino, sorry.
 

Dime

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 26, 2008
Messages
225
Location
Ruto, Pennsylvania
Counting cards will get you kicked out of a casino, sorry.
Not many poker players here I guess.
Calculating odds is not card counting. You can't card count in poker because the deck is shuffled before each deal. That only works for blackjack (which is different than poker).
 

DeliciousCake

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
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Fairfax, VA
3DS FC
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Yes, I know, I was just putting up a stupid example. You might as well throw Poker in with the "Rock-Paper-Scissors" argument that was on here before Brawl came out.
 

Dime

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 26, 2008
Messages
225
Location
Ruto, Pennsylvania
You cannot compare a fighting game to a card game based completely around luck of the draw and prediction. Sorry.
Sorry but I did, and it works and is applicable

Yes, I know, I was just putting up a stupid example. You might as well throw Poker in with the "Rock-Paper-Scissors" argument that was on here before Brawl came out.
Sorry I misunderstood what you were saying. My only point with the poker thing is that randomness does not take away from competition.
 

LouisLeGros

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
403
Location
Seattle
poker is nothing like rock paper scissors

Poker also has a ton of luck in it. Sure in the long run the pros will outshine the competition, but if you look at poker tournaments it is really common to see nobodies get really far or pros to get eliminated really easily.


It sort of reminds me of what someone on these boards did with skill and luck

lets say variable x is players skill & variable y is game luck.
If you compare two players where one players skill variable is higher then another and face them against each other in a competition that is pure skill then the person with the larger skill variable will win.

it would got sort of like this
if x1 > x2 then x1 = winner
if x1 = x2 then results = tie
if x1 < x2 then x2 = winner

I probably should have said this before, but this is hypothetical so don't go questioning my assumptions (feel free to question my conclusion).

When the competition between the two players with different skill variables has a random element then there is a bit of a change. the random variable shall be assigned to y.

if x1 ± y > x2 ± y then x1 = winner
if x1 ± y = x2 ± y then results = tie
if x1 ± y < x2 ± y then x2 = winner

with smaller samples the results will be mixed, but as the number of samples increase then skill will eventually win out. This is why in there are pros. Despite the amount of luck, the skill is factored in because of the time played.

The same can be said for smash. If we played 1 stock super sudden death then the results would be really hectic, but if we recorded the results of enough games there would eventually be a pattern and skilled players could be identified. Competitive smash players really want to keep this y variable as small as possible. There is still luck(and a lot of human factors) in smash, that is why tournament play is usually best of 3.

rock-paper-scissors is 99.999999999% luck and it sharing the variable of luck with poker and smash and pretty much every game ever is its only thing it has in common.


...
Look what you did, your little comparison made me have to go on and write this post.

Curse my unintentional use of homophones!
 

everlasting yayuhzz

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 12, 2007
Messages
2,876
Location
swaggin' to da maxxx
Poker isn't like Smash because Average Joe Schmo Gamer Bob can't come in with a professional player and ever win a match ever. While in poker, random player #342 can beat professionals but just getting lucky.
 

Kunato

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 3, 2007
Messages
129
Location
Norway
All battles are pretty random. Even if Person A beats person B in a match, that victory was based on luck. If they battled again, maybe Person B would've won. Or if they hadn't battled at all, and battled the next day instead, Person B could've won.

Therefore, even if a player wins a tournament final, that is based on luck. If the tournament was held two days ago instead, he (the winner) would've faced different opponents, played (against) different characters, played on different stages; the outcome would become very different.
Even if he played against the exact same people, he probably wouldn't have won after all.

If you really want to see who's the best, you have to play 100 (or even 1000) matches and see who wins the most battles. And of course, you have to be the same character, and you have to play on a totally flat stage. Also, there mustn't be any people around you, and you've gotta use the same type of controller.
...No, wait, it's still based on luck. But it's the closest thing to 'fairness'.
 

LouisLeGros

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
403
Location
Seattle
I shall simply say I disagree with most of the post above me, but I will leave it at that because this is the "fireproof" thread
 

Kunato

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 3, 2007
Messages
129
Location
Norway
I shall simply say I disagree with most of the post above me, but I will leave it at that because this is the "fireproof" thread
Now that I look over the post, I have to admit that I too disagree with it (at least partly).
And sorry if the post sounds rude, it's so easy to misinterpret each other on the net.

Anyway, what I mean is simply that battles have different outcomes depending on when it is fought, even if the same characters fight each other on the exact same stage.
 

LouisLeGros

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
403
Location
Seattle
Now that I look over the post, I have to admit that I too disagree with it (at least partly).
And sorry if the post sounds rude, it's so easy to misinterpret each other on the net.

Anyway, what I mean is simply that battles have different outcomes depending on when it is fought, even if the same characters fight each other on the exact same stage.
yes there are a large number of factors, it is more then my x skill and y luck. It really gets down to thinks as minuscule as controller, player number, stage, music, place of competition and well there are so many variables. They are sort of outside of the realm of luck though. There are a lot variables that involve luck and prediction, but documenting them all would pretty much be impossible and as pointless as critiquing mind games on a tournament video.
 

That_Move_is_Key

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 1, 2008
Messages
47
you know what's really funny?
You're all arguing over whether or not poker can be compared to smash
and the post didn't even compare the two
he just said there are competitive games based on luck, and gave an example (poker)

I am not saying you can master luck, but you can compensate for it. Having a random element or luck involved does not make something non-competitive. Poker is competitive and played professionally and the pros know how to overcome a streak of bad luck.

By the way you missed the point of this thread. If you don’t agree with my ideas post your own instead of bashing mine.
 

Dime

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 26, 2008
Messages
225
Location
Ruto, Pennsylvania
Ok. Forget about the poker. I was just using that to try to get people to think about things differently.

It all boils down to this....

People say there is no depth in brawl where there was in melee. So if no one can find depth where it used to be maybe we should look for depth in new places.

So where should we look? Any ideas?

... And don't say up Peach's Dress. There is depth there but not the kind I'm talking about.
 
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