Reverse Nayru's Momentum Canceling

[AGuyNamedRaf]

Sorry for being newbish, but what's a Breversal and how do you do it?

 

[Kataefi]

So technically this is bucket-braking but with nayru's?

 

[KayLo!]

Sorry for being newbish, but what's a Breversal and how do you do it?

b reversal is just doing a b move backwards.

you can either hit b, then quickly hit the control stick in the opposite direction, or flick the control stick in the opposite direction, then quickly hit b.

just make sure your control stick is at the neutral position when you actually hit b, or you'll probably din's instead and fall to your death

So technically this is bucket-braking but with nayru's?

basically, except instead of completely killing momentum, it actually reverses it. if you can perfect it, it might even be better than bucket braking...... although naryu's has significantly more lag and therefore is more punishable

EDIT: i just looked at the vid again.... i think bucket braking is still better. looks like it takes a while for the reversed momentum to come into effect, but it's still the same idea

 

[sasook]

his Dsmash makes you face him before you're launched, it's just the angle of the launch means eventually your back is to him.

Right, the bolded part is what I meant. Sorry if I was unclear.

Didn't know about the unbolded part though.

 

[AGuyNamedRaf]

b reversal is just doing a b move backwards.

you can either hit b, then quickly hit the control stick in the opposite direction, or flick the control stick in the opposite direction, then quickly hit b.

just make sure your control stick is at the neutral position when you actually hit b, or you'll probably din's instead and fall to your death

Awesome, thanks a lot! :D

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

just make sure your control stick is at the neutral position when you actually hit b, or you'll probably din's instead and fall to your death

It's as if sakurai forsaw us using a B reversed nayru's to recover so he made din's send us into a freefall to screw us in the royal hiney if we missed it..... because sakurai is evil.

 

[goodkid]

This is awesome. I'll practice this ASAP

 

[Kataefi]

I just did this... it's surprisingly really easy =D Then again you can **** up and get sent the other way. I think it's one of those things you just need to practise constantly to get down. I did it side by side GW's bucket and percentage wise you live longer braking with nayru's.

 

[KayLo!]

I did it side by side GW's bucket and percentage wise you live longer braking with nayru's.

I'm scared to ask how many fingers you have.....

That's good news, though. With practice, I'm sure it'll become second nature.... there are much harder techniques out there than a simple b reversal.

 

[Kataefi]

oh no she didn

I've recently got 2 wavebirds you can fix on the same channel so you can test 2 characters at once doing the exact same thing. Mucho handy

 

[JigglyZelda003]

this thread sure is popular, lol

 

[sasook]

I did it side by side GW's bucket and percentage wise you live longer braking with nayru's.

Is Zelda the same weight as G&W?

 

[stealth3654]

Is Zelda the same weight as G&W?

No. GaW is lighter.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

This is rather awesome, but I always screw up.

I guess I should start practising in training mode.

Thanks for posting the info anyway.

 

[Ochobobo]

Could you guys upload some videos of yourselves successfully testing this out? I'm curious as to what we can achieve with this move's potential.

 

[KayLo!]

Weirdly, I was gonna pick Naryu's as the next move for the move analysis thread.

I can get replays of me doing it, but I can't record, so someone else would have to get them on the comp for me.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

So... Could Lucario do this? His Aura Sphere Charge is wavebouncable and easily reversed.

 

[XFadingNirvanaX]

Could it be? Zelda has a new tech? And it's useful!?
*practices*

 

[Ochobobo]

Could it be? Zelda has a new tech? And it's useful!?
*practices*

I'm extremely surprised as well. How long has it been since Teleport Canceling was discovered? Too long, lol

 

[demonictoonlink]

Great. Now find one for Tink :/

 

[sniperworm]

(typing on my psp.... excuse the naked color + no caps)

it is. before this, zelda didn't really have a momentum canceler..... the best you could do was FF bair to regain control, then either hold backwards (if you wanted to conserve your jump) or jump to kill momentum. any of her b moves would send you flying off the stage.

this is sort of like bucket/bike braking or pika's skull bash in that she has a b move she can actually use to completely stop/reverse her momentum in a way that doesn't waste her second jump.

EDIT: i just looked at the vid again.... i think bucket braking is still better. looks like it takes a while for the reversed momentum to come into effect, but it's still the same idea

I understand how this could be useful because it saves your jump. However, what I really wanted to know is if this actually lets you survive moves that you normally couldn't with regular momentum cancelling.

The video made me have doubts about whether this technique actually increases survivability beyond that of normal momentum cancelling and the brief testing I did yesterday further heightens my suspicions. Not only did I not see a notable difference between this and normal momentum cancelling (in terms of horizontal distance you get knocked away), but I was actually unable to survive a move that I could survive with normal momentum cancelling.

I'm no expert at b-reversing since I rarely do it and I'm not exactly the greatest at DI and momentum cancelling (I know how they work but I'm generally not the best at executing them). That's why I wanted to know if somebody has actually tested it and can provide concrete evidence that this is better.

 

[Kataefi]

Just practiced. Its easy and effective! Surviving a Wario Fsmash at 140 on FD is well worth learning.

I think the quote speaks for itself really =p... I've tested it, Riot has, Rookie's done it I believe with Fox's b reveals.

It's basically an improved bucket-brake with a slight reverse in momentum (pulls you back). If you're finding that it's actually better to DI normally with the jump, then you've done the b reversal wrong and accelerated or you've done it too slow. One needs quick fingers =p edit:: sometimes I die as well and have inconsistencies though... I think this is tricky to master.

The video innocentroads posted is just to show nayru's braking the momentum. It's not showing the brake under perfect DI by the looks of it.

 

[GodAtHand]

Make sure you DI as you would normal. I know that I DI by using both sticks one being mashed toward the stage and one being held toward the stage, don't mash away from the stage just to make sure you kick ASAP because you will be causing yourself to DI in the wrong direction. Learn the timing to kick away and do it then, don't try it beforehand or you are hurting yourself.

 

[KayLo!]

Make sure you DI as you would normal. I know that I DI by using both sticks one being mashed toward the stage and one being held toward the stage, don't mash away from the stage just to make sure you kick ASAP because you will be causing yourself to DI in the wrong direction.

....Towards the stage?

You're supposed to DI to the corners. IIRC, Brawl doesn't recognize DI in the direct opposite direction of your trajectory. Or rather, it doesn't make a big impact on how far you're sent.

Maybe I misunderstood you.

 

[sniperworm]

Make sure you DI as you would normal. I know that I DI by using both sticks one being mashed toward the stage and one being held toward the stage, don't mash away from the stage just to make sure you kick ASAP because you will be causing yourself to DI in the wrong direction. Learn the timing to kick away and do it then, don't try it beforehand or you are hurting yourself.

lol, thanks but I'm aware that you need to time the kick (and if you knew me than you'd know that mashing Bair and reacting to the kick coming out wouldn't really be viable for me). I've been DI'ing the exact same way in both instances (just substituting either a jump or a b-reversed neutral B).

I think the quote speaks for itself really =p... I've tested it, Riot has, Rookie's done it I believe with Fox's b reveals.

It's basically an improved bucket-brake with a slight reverse in momentum (pulls you back). If you're finding that it's actually better to DI normally with the jump, then you've done the b reversal wrong and accelerated or you've done it too slow. One needs quick fingers =p edit:: sometimes I die as well and have inconsistencies though... I think this is tricky to master.

The video innocentroads posted is just to show nayru's braking the momentum. It's not showing the brake under perfect DI by the looks of it.

I know I'm not doing the B-reversal wrong because I can see it reversing before I die (aka I'm facing the other way) and I can execute it at non-terminal knockback (aka when I can see myself B-reverse and my momentum goes back toward the stage, just like in the video). I can, however, fully accept that I might not be using neutral B early enough and that might be why I'm not surviving (again, I don't mash buttons, so my timing could inherently be wrong as the only reference I have is the video in the OP and my past experience with momentum cancelling the normal way).

I guess I'll just have to wait for a video of someone actually using it to survive a move so I can see how it's supposed to look.

 

[KayLo!]

I guess I'll just have to wait for a video of someone actually using it to survive a move so I can see how it's supposed to look.

I'm going to try to get a replay tonight when I get home. Ocho offered to record it for me.

 

[GodAtHand]

Yah I meant one being mashed toward the stage and one being held to the corner of the stage. Thats how I got the best results. Now I do the same, but when I know a move will initiate I use bair and then the b reverse. I don't think it is as good as G&W because it is not instant, nayrus definitely takes time to start, but I was surviving moves a couldn't before, and it puts you in a better position for recovering which is great for Zelda anyways.

 

[Kataefi]

You're right I think the reason I thought this was better than bucket braking when testing on the wavebird is because she's generally heavier.

What's interesting is that the bucket is slower than nayru's - I wonder if the momentum is halted on the immediate activation of nayru's on frame 5... If it is then it actually will be better =O

Either way though, I think this is still cool info regardless. I don't think it's gonna make a dramatic difference, but I can see this actually being a technique that's usable if one can get it down perfectly.

Edit::*Note to self* it's also a bit early to jump to conclusions lol, so I'll wait and see if this becomes truly legit.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

does that ridiculously named "love jump" technique have any affect on the momentum cancelling if one attempts to use it whilst using a momentum cancelling reversed nayru's?

 

[GodAtHand]

I will go try that now.

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

You're right I think the reason I thought this was better than bucket braking when testing on the wavebird is because she's generally heavier.

What's interesting is that the bucket is slower than nayru's - I wonder if the momentum is halted on the immediate activation of nayru's on frame 5... If it is then it actually will be better =O

Keep in mind if you're doing this with a Wavebird than you're having GaW Bair correct? I believe Nair is his fastest arial and the one used to regain control. This comes, solely, from playing obm's GaW though.

Either way his Bair isn't the same speed as Zelda's.

 

[KayLo!]

Keep in mind if you're doing this with a Wavebird than you're having GaW Bair correct? I believe Nair is his fastest arial and the one used to regain control. This comes, solely, from playing obm's GaW though.

Either way his Bair isn't the same speed as Zelda's.

Good point. G&Ws do use nair.

Also, I think the bucket's momentum-killing properties do start before Naryu's, but this is just from past experience. Not home yeeeet.

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

I wish I could get my Wii up and working, I'm curious what else this can work with...

 

[GodAtHand]

G&W do use nair, and bucket breaking starts before nayrus. BUT I did some more testing and the skeptics should know that this DEFINITELY does allow you to live longer.

Hedgedawg combining this and a love jump does stop Zeldas momentum but it sends her insanely high upwards... and she loses her second jump obviously. The momentum all goes up none of it is used to send you toward the stage again. I suppose it is useful for moves that would send you down at an odd angle... like Zeldas Dsmash if you are not prepared for it.

 

[sasook]

I understand how this could be useful because it saves your jump. However, what I really wanted to know is if this actually lets you survive moves that you normally couldn't with regular momentum cancelling.

The video made me have doubts about whether this technique actually increases survivability beyond that of normal momentum cancelling and the brief testing I did yesterday further heightens my suspicions. Not only did I not see a notable difference between this and normal momentum cancelling (in terms of horizontal distance you get knocked away), but I was actually unable to survive a move that I could survive with normal momentum cancelling.

I'm no expert at b-reversing since I rarely do it and I'm not exactly the greatest at DI and momentum cancelling (I know how they work but I'm generally not the best at executing them). That's why I wanted to know if somebody has actually tested it and can provide concrete evidence that this is better.

When I tested this with G&W's fsmash, I tried both with and without the technique. Generally (when I did it properly), this technique helped me survive longer.

don't mash away from the stage just to make sure you kick ASAP because you will be causing yourself to DI in the wrong direction.

As long you're not mashing it away while actually being hit, you're fine. In other words, if you're already flying, mash away from the stage with the C-stick all you want, it has no bad effects.

does that ridiculously named "love jump" technique have any affect on the momentum cancelling if one attempts to use it whilst using a momentum cancelling reversed nayru's?

Well, jumping while you are still flying from knockback causes you to move away from the stage. Plus, I don't think Zelda is in an actual tumble while she's flying backwards after a hit. Only after she regains control (without momentum canceling, otherwise there would be no tumble), she goes into a tumble, and then you can love jump. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.

 

[SuorGenoveffa]

I must be doing something wrong. I mean, this seems to work until certain percentages, but is it normal that after, like, 150% my b-reversal just keeps on going towards the blast zone? Also... why is non-reversal Nayru's working too? o.O.

Please it would be great if someone could help me out :X.

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

Riot, since I don't have a Wii I can use at the moment wanna try something for me?

Try doing similiar but BReverese Diddy's Nuetral B(Popgun). The move doesn't have the trajectory momentum stopping attributes of Naryu's, but I'm curious to see if just BReversing will make it potentially work... or if it'll lead to death. If it does work than I need to start using it more off stage than I do(and not screwing up).

 

[sasook]

but is it normal that after, like, 150% my b-reversal just keeps on going towards the blast zone? Also... why is non-reversal Nayru's working too? o.O.

First question - dunno, that's weird. We should test this.

Second question - that means you stopped all your momentum before doing the NL. Meaning, there was momentum left from the hit, so when you use NL, it appears as if it works normally too. I found that out when I tested this yesterday.

 

[Kataefi]

My DI must seriously SUCK. I've tried this again but I seem to only live like 2 or 3% better than if I had used a DJ.

I think I'm definitely mistiming when I can bair from knockback - how can one tell when they need to bair? There are times I can do very early, and other times when I can't do it at all.

 

[GodAtHand]

oki doki ace I will check it out.