Revival of Melee 3 | Video Thread - BEST GFS EVER?! MATCHES UP.

[Iron Dragon]

Why can't people just be satisfied with the word of the other best players who say Mango is the best?

M2K and PP go to every damn thread that tries to say otherwise and are like "No Mango is easily the best" and everyone is like "durp i've never played mango but i think i know better than two players who are top 5".

 

[Clint_Eastwood]

Mango is doing us a huge favour by sand-bagging. Think about it, and appreciate it.

I have watched the Grand Final videos a few times now; and all I have to say is M2K got R APED. You guys can argue all you want, but what I saw was complete domination. The vast majority of M2K's kills were gimps and beautifully executed baits. That is all he could do against Peepee's vicious, methodical punishment. Watch the very last stock of that series and you will realize just how good he is... it is scary good.

In a few months time I believe Dr. PP will be nearly unstoppable. All this Falco v Puff practice he has had against Hbox will pay off when he (hopefully) fights Mango in a serious tournament setting. I truly believe Dr. PP is the best Falco ever.

 

[ajp_anton]

Mango can see the Matrix. This gift doesn't simply go away, and noone else has shown the symptoms of it.
Also, what does it matter who the very best is?

Also, if someone really tries to beat Mango, like, actually tries to, in a friendly (meaning Mango plays a friendly but the other plays seriously), and they lose, you can in fact draw the conclusion that Mango is better.

 

[Merkuri]

Mango can see the Matrix. This gift doesn't simply go away, and noone else has shown the symptoms of it.
Also, what does it matter who the very best is?

Also, if someone really tries to beat Mango, like, actually tries to, in a friendly (meaning Mango plays a friendly but the other plays seriously), and they lose, you can in fact draw the conclusion that Mango is better.

You really can't draw anything from friendlies. Tournament is a whole different animal. They are not comparable.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

This is how i see it:

mango is the best.

as far as i'm concerned, mango hasn't entered a singles tournament since pound 4.

however, he's played some good friendlies, and is also down to mm people who think they have a shot at beating him, continuously proving he's the best to all who oppose him.

scorpion master is pretty good at this game though, but even on his game, i think top 10, around 5th place, is about as high as he can get.

scorpion master has entered tournaments and has proven himself to be a decent player, although not nearly as good as that mango guy.

the last thing mango entered in singles, he placed first in. Since then, scorpion master has taken over, and has placed decently and has made brackets. If mango decided to make a comeback, then cool. Maybe scorpion master will continue to improve, and may shock us all at the next major, winning it all as falcon/marth.

 

[kupo15]

I think it's not about who is "really" the best. I think it's about who we think deserves the title: the best. So what makes people deserve to be called the best? I think this differs on people. Some think that beating everybody in casuals is fair enough to deserve the title. Others, including myself, claim that to deserve "the best" -title, the players recent tourney results and performances has to outweigh other players ones.

As for Mango, it's clear that he beats everybody in casuals. So if one thinks it's enough to deserve to be called the best, then there's no arguing. I myself by principle, don't judge casuals as proof of anything. Casuals are for training and for fun, not for proving someones level.

To prove your level, you enter tournaments. But mango has won tournaments, lots of them indeed. The question is, are his victories recent enough? In my opinion they are at this point on an edge to be not recent enough anymore. So Im not sure if mango anymore deserves to be called the best. I think that the system can only be fair if only tournament matches and results count. We cannot make exceptions on it, not even for mango.

And I also think that it's better for the competition, if only tournament matches and results count. It's also fair that way to other players. I mean, how could have PP proven in the tournament that he is better than mango? There was no way doing it in the tournament, since mango lost early by sandbagging. So imo it's not fair to PP and to other players, that even when they win everyone in the major tourneys, they wouldn't deserve to be called the best just because someone beats them in casuals. By this way, mango doesn't even give a chance for the players to show that they are really better than him. Im not saying they are, but since mango doesn't allow them to try to prove that in real competition, Im not sure mango deserves to be called the best anymore.

This guy is thinking along the same lines that I am and its written much better. I especially like to point out the bold.

Why can't people just be satisfied with the word of the other best players who say Mango is the best?

Because unless you actually see the friendlies at the tourney, its all a bunch of he said she said and people like to see proof instead of just believing because someone told them too.]

In a few months time I believe Dr. PP will be nearly unstoppable. All this Falco v Puff practice he has had against Hbox will pay off when he (hopefully) fights Mango in a serious tournament setting. I truly believe Dr. PP is the best Falco ever.

Yes, hopefully is the key word. Who knows if Mango will ever give PP (or anyone for that matter) the chance to prove himself better.

Just saying
[/COLOR]

 

[Pi]

Sure, not everyone is gonna play for money, it doesnt matter what other top players motivations are, bringing them up is irrelevent.

However, you're making a big deal M2k playing for money, basically insulting him and belittling him as a person, purely on the basis that his ideals don't match up with yours.

So yes, you do need to grow up. If m2k only plays for the money, that effects you n ABSOLUTELY NO WAY.

If you personally dont like m2k anymore because of your "ideals", thats fine, but putting him on blast on a public forum and calling his character into question is ridiculous and childish.
And theres no rules stating "why" this game should be played, so the notion that it should be "for fun, for the comunity and blah" is flawed to begin with. The fact that we offer cash prizes instead of "fun" for the winner, basically destroys whatever point you were trying to make.

i didn't say it was about 'fun'
pride, dignity, confidence, satisfaction, accomplishment all have equal parts in the prize of winning a tournament

i'm more concerned that he is constantly leaning on this community for support, motivation, hype, housing, rides, etc. etc. etc. and then giving back nothing in return but a ****ty attitude about the game

i'm not saying he's a bad guy, he doesn't owe anyone money, he's not a bad house guest, but ffs the community has done a lot for him, for free, and he acts like he just doesn't care about this game any more
every tournament he says he isn't going to enter singles, his focus is on brawl, he can't do this or that or he doesn't have the motivation any more or yada yada yada
until someone begs and pleads and offers him **** to compete

something is not right there
m2k needs to figure out what m2k wants and m2k needs to handle it

 

[JPOBS]

You really can't draw anything from friendlies. Tournament is a whole different animal. They are not comparable.

Here is the bigger issue you are missing:

- Every single top player in the world unianimously agrees that mango is the best
- The reason they all say this is because when they play him in friendlies, they get destroyed for hours on end.

Now heres the important part: when they play against mango, even in friendlies, they are trying their absolute best (or very very close). Friendlies vs mango might as well be tournament matches, because they are all trying to get a feel for where the stand relative to the best player in the world.
Havent you ever noticed that when mango plays friendlies, he plays fox/falco/marth/falcon/whoever, but the other top player is ALWAYS playing their main? Its because even when mango is sandbagging, the other player is still trying pretty damn hard, and still losing consistently.

Do you get it now?
No one is saying "well...mango still beats top players in friendlies so he is the best"
We are saying that every top pro fully admits that mango is the ebst, because when they play him, they feel 100% overwhelmemd, and they know that being in a "tourny setting" isnt going to change that.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

There is such a thing as the majority being wrong. Everyone who says mango is the best is in fact speculating because mango hasn't proved himself in tournament for the last 10 months. Again friendlies don't count for ****. Furthurmore even the word of the top players don't count for much because they too are speculating.

I remember Axe saying DRPP was so much better than he was because he ***** him in friendlies, and then Axe 2-0d him in tournament. Only tourney matches should factor, in who is the best and who isn't.

..it's not the majority. it's every actual good player. Tell me any known top player that doesn't think this, and have them post here. Then your argument will work. Using the statistics rule with mango is pretty stupid, funny enough he knows it so hard he doesn't play his main in tournament..

Btw your second paragraph is a bad example, Axe ***** in falco dittos, i don't see how it proves anything

 

[MacD]

don't forget axe is like the nicest smasher ever

he tells everyone they are amazing all the time

 

[Iron Dragon]

don't forget axe is like the nicest smasher ever

he tells everyone they are amazing all the time

Yeah pretty much.

 

[FALCOMIST]

Okay after watching grand finals...

Must say it's probably one of the best sets of this year xD. Its funny to see that the best set starting the year was my set with Shiz and the possible best set in the end of the year possibly could be PP and M2k *wait for DGDTJ tourney on west coast* Falco vs Marth brings the HYPE!!! EVERY SINGLE TIME!!! LOL.

Okay 2nd off, Mango is the best and he has alrdy proved it. Now he is trying to be the best at Sc2 xD, but seriously Mango is a homie and he has proved he's the best =D. I don't blame Mango for not trying, cause people just get bored of grand finals saying oh... Mango won... I mean no disrespect to Mango or any of the grand finals in the past... But has there EVER been hype for mango in grand finals since Genesis with Armada? He is doing the community a favor xD, <3 Mango.

Anyways... Congratulations to DR.PP and M2k. DR.PP played amazing in his set, M2k played well but just messed up a few times, which is basically tournament tension xD. He even says himself he plays better in friendlies than tournament because of the pressure. I know how that feels especially with the set I had with Shiz. For the people that say oh... It wasn't a good set because he was messing up... Well u try being in the same situation and see how well u do?

 

[ajp_anton]

You really can't draw anything from friendlies. Tournament is a whole different animal. They are not comparable.

You can't officially say that Mango > player X, only this player can know how seriously he was playing, but if he knows he was dead serious and did everything he could and failed, he knows he's not better.

 

[Atlus8]

Grand Finals was amazing until Rainbow Cruise! Didn't care who won at that point!

 

[rhan]

I had me a bonerfest on Rainbow Cruise.

 

[Gallo69]

Grrr... I wish I could write as intelligent and educated as some of you people in the smash community! I'd be doing so much better in school =/

Anyway, sickest grand finals I've watched since genesis. And goo shi StriCNYN3 - I see your name everywhere now! (This is Gallo from the DIP! 2 tournament)

 

[Shore Top]

only from the all the friendly vids post online!!--- ive seen armada beat mango (or go about even) in more friendlies, so does that make armada the best? i dont know how many they actually played. and armada was the only one to take a set from mango as puff in a grand final. i think armada closes the gap on mango's "god" status

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

GFs were hot, I've been calling Dr.PP "The Future" for almost a year now and I'm glad to see the truth spreading.

On the topic of Mango:

I think people are confusing their personal dislike or Mango's trollish actions in tournament with being ranked dubiously, when it's quite clear Mango still stands head and shoulders above his nearest competitors. He is very dominant in a game even when surrounded with fierce competitors vying for his throne, that is no small feat.

 

[rhan]

I like Mango when he's cool.

As in not being a diq to 90% of everyone around him.

Him playing Jiggs is cool with me. Him play other characters and ****** you scrubs. I will love him for that. <3

 

[choknater]

i like mango when he is cool AND being a diq

oh wait

he is NOT usually a diq. hes a really friendly guy LOL. he says everyone sucks at smash, but thats fine, in his perspective he really believes they do. his cockiness is usually presented in a joking way

 

[metaivan]

evan im not entering pound5 singles. Every national i enter both games I never can have a chance to win either event

play melee singles not brawl

 

[choknater]

ahhh the fanboys

i remember the days when everyone wanted him to lose

perhaps being #2 can be a more favorable position than being on top


get @ vegeta and zoro

 

[KirbyKaze]

Someday I'll be 2nd

 

[ph00tbag]

That's not a good example, and I think Mango has proven himself to everyone who is competing for his spot every time he goes somewhere. If they all believe he's better(and I'm pretty darn sure they do) and you don't then that's kinda weird but you're entitled to your own opinion.

But that's not what either Merkuri or I am saying. You should know very well the details of this dispute, because we had it in NC not too long ago, when trying to decide if Adam was second best or not. The fact was, even though everyone believed that he was definitely second best, he couldn't be ranked because there was no tournament data to back up a second place ranking.

It's pretty much the same thing here. Sure Mango beat Kage, but he lost to Hungrybox and KirbyKaze, both of whom you beat. He did not place as well as you, Hbox, M2K, KirbyKaze, Jman or even Lucky. He's had similarly disappointing results for the past ten months. So anyone who flat out says "he's definitely the best," will have trouble backing it up other than through their opinion.

It's not to say he's bad. I've said before I also think he would clean house if he tried. But I can't in good faith say that what I think is a fact.

 

[Sox]

I say that when the winner of the tournament says mango is better than him with fox, then you take him at his word... and mango has proved himself in tournament settings. he did win doubles at this tournament too. I liked the way ajp_anton put it.

 

[JPOBS]

@ph00tbag: If you play against someone for hours, and only manage to take away 1 in every 10 games as a win, even in friendlies, isn't it fair to say "that guy is better than me" ?

Thats what every top player is doing. They play mango's fox/falcoetc and lose so consistently, they can't realistically believe they could beat him in tournament if he bothered to play those characters.

Thats all people are trying to say. The good players believe mango is the best cuz he beats the snot out of them for hours. You dont think he's the best cause you sit home and watch your youtube vids and read your smashboards. i wonder who's more likely to be right.

 

[Pi]

well tbh playing against 1 person's 1 character can't be a solid way to determine who's 'better'

me and my friend go even, marth samus
but i do better vs. other people than him

this could be due to me knowing the matchups better than him, me adapting better than him, or them knowing the marth matchup better than the samus one

granted, mango's fox/falco ***** anyone regardless of character choice, so it's kind of irrelevant

but still, person X vs. person Y doesn't prove much

 

[LLDL]

do u ****ers want proof that mango is the best?

POUND 3
Mang0's performance
Winners' bracket
Lost to Silent Wolf

Losers' bracket
Defeated Mathos
Defeated Sliq
Defeated Cactaur
Defeated Forward
Defeated Azen
Defeated Chu
Defeated Cort
Defeated PC Chris
Defeated M2k
Defeated M2k

Revival of Melee
Mango's performance
Winners' bracket
Defeated Pakman
Defeated DJ Nintendo
Defeated Cactuar
Defeated chudat
Defeated PC Chris
Defeated M2K
Defeated M2K

GENESIS
Mango's performance
Losers' bracket
Defeated Hungrybox
Defeated Armada
Defeated Armada

POUND IV
Mango's performance
Winners' bracket
Defeated ChuDat
Defeated Axe
Defeated Lucky
Defeated Hungrybox
Defeated Hungrybox

Wtf are those brackets?!

Plus hes won at least like 30+ other WC tournaments or something like that. All after pound 3 at that, which wasn't that long ago, just 2 and a half years ago.

Nobody has a track record like that :/

Forget how long ago pound 4 was and his performance in between. IT WAS LESS THAN A YEAR AGO, DO YOU HONESTLY THINK THAT JUST BECAUSE HE IS EXPERIMENTING WITH CHARACTERS OTHER THAN HIS MAIN, HE IS NOT THE BEST!?

Lol, you HONESTLY think than in less than a year, the other players have all of a sudden boosted to his level, out of nowhere? No, stop that foolishness. hes beastin lol.

 

[choknater]

^**** post

 

[Coot]

How is this even a legitimate debate?
All I see are a bunch of fanboys and haters refusing to admit that Mango is still the best.
Both M2K and Dr. PP have made simple declarative statements in this thread along the lines of: "Mango is the best" and it seems that many other top players would agree.
Say what you will, but I think this level of affirmation from high level players renders all other arguments void.

It's a simple case of expert vs. layman. I think the problem with player analysis and theory when it comes to Melee is that it is hard to establish a distinction between people who know their stuff and those who don't. Everyone bold enough to express an opinion likes to think they are experts on how the game should work and on who is better than who. The cold, hard truth is that most of us are idiots and only those with a CONSIDERABLE amount of playing experience and/or playing success can make legitimate affirmations such as, "Mango is the best" or "Mango is not the best." Here, we have top-level professionals posting on this forum and letting us know that yes, despite his recent dillydallying, Mango is still the best.

The professionals in competitive gaming are infinitely more accessible than professional athletes, professional chess players, etc. which is why I think so many of us find it easy to try and refute their opinions. These amazing players are so much like us in all other regards that we want to think that our opinions on a game at which they are experts are just as legitimate as theirs. It just doesn't work that way.

You can't have Timmy from the high school basketball team telling professional player X he is wrong when player X affirms, "Yes, player Y is currently the best 1-on-1 basketball player. He is considerably skilled" Timmy is being even more ridiculous if he continues to hold that opinion when players A, B, C, D, E, F, G...and Z express agreement with player X's opinion.

We are all Timmy and we should just STFU.

-Coot

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

You can't have Timmy from the high school basketball team telling professional player X he is wrong when player X affirms, "Yes, player Y is currently the best 1-on-1 basketball player. He is considerably skilled" Timmy is being even more ridiculous if he continues to hold that opinion when players A, B, C, D, E, F, G...and Z express agreement with player X's opinion.

We are all Timmy and we should just STFU.

-Coot

been trying to emphasize this..dunno why ph00t keeps going.

His argument is a joke in the sense that he's trying to use the friendlies/tournament/not placing rule on mango when it's obvious why this doesn't work.

We'll know when he's trying again, or when he's actually being competed against, for now it's obvious no1s ahead of him and there's absolutely no discussion for it. Especially with the way you're trying to argue it.

It's pretty much the same thing here. Sure Mango beat Kage, but he lost to Hungrybox and KirbyKaze, both of whom you beat. He did not place as well as you, Hbox, M2K, KirbyKaze, Jman or even Lucky. He's had similarly disappointing results for the past ten months. So anyone who flat out says "he's definitely the best," will have trouble backing it up other than through their opinion.

You forgot the part in your story where everyone was playing their mains except for mango

You're starting to come off as a troll. and if you're not that's bad arguing on your part.

 

[Quic]

Mango's not performing in singles currently because his choice of characters/seriousness is similar to Rafael Nadal playing tennis tournaments with a racket made out of wood.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

so the question becomes whether we still consider wood nadal the best tennis player, or whether we consider his new desire to play with wood in tournament grounds to not consider him the best anymore.

no matter the racket, the player is still the player. everyone (who matters) knows that if he switched back to the technology that he's best at using, his playstyle would trump those who played against him.

 

[Quic]

his new desire to play with wood in tournament grounds.

Teehee..

no matter the racket, the player is still the player. everyone (who matters) knows that if he switched back to the technology that he's best at using, his playstyle would trump those who played against him.

Exactly, he's only using those things because using the same tools as everybody else isn't a challenge to him any more.

 

[strawhats]

ok...here' something I feel no one should be able to refute, WHEN YOU HAVE TO CRIPPLE YOURSELF TO HELP PEOPLE CATCH UP TO YOU (YOU'RE THE MUTHA ***IN BOSS) GOT IT NUFF SAID.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

the funny thing is, ph00t is using mango crippling himself[not placing/losing to playerX in tourny] as the basis for him not being the best anymore.

lulz

 

[LLDL]

Come on prog with those uploads <3

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

prog hasn't uploading anything yet?! jeeeez.

 

[strawhats]

the funny thing is, ph00t is using mango crippling himself[not placing/losing to playerX in tourny] as the basis for him not being the best anymore.

lulz

which is why, I can't take him seriously.

 

[Shore Top]

if he was really that good, he would cripple himself (non main char) and still win. but he is the best tho. although i am an armada fanboy