MrEh, Veril, and RhedKing.
BY OUR POWERS COMBINED WE ARE:
THE JIGGLYPUFF SCIENCE LEAGUE!
-
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Rhed's sing thread: Sing AT list up! New character matchup!
- Thread starter RhedKing
- Start date
BY OUR POWERS COMBINED WE ARE:
THE JIGGLYPUFF SCIENCE LEAGUE!
Veril
Frame Savant
The Mediator
Smash Journeyman
The league of extraordinary Puffs!
Back on topic:
Did you try GR->sing on Wario?
Back on topic:
Did you try GR->sing on Wario?
K I'm done!lol but you're still a probationary member
Answer my questions punk!
there is some practical material I want to get working on as you will see, but I'm swamped with Homework so it's no looking good.
But something will be up by monday/tuesday.
HiddenBowser
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2007
- Messages
- 3,511
And what happens if they're ******** :/... LOL, I love saying **** that makes people look at you weird as hell, saying "wait, what? are you ****ing serious?" XD
Veril
Frame Savant
Thank you for defining chain concert. Keep in mind the startup lag of sing. If you are correct sing will lead to rest at lower % since you can move closer to your opponent through this technique.
3. Example of what I want: Pit: 75+%, options: rest (close), chain concert (mid), drill-rest (far-medium range). 100+%: rollout ftw.
7. An example of an important DACUS is snake's mortar slide. Bowser doesn't DAC as far as I know.
8. If you perfect shield a laggy attack can you sing while they are still in lag? Range? Perfect shield doesn't work in the air (Duh). Losing the sing game is NOT an option, much like losing the rest game.
rinoH
Smash Lord
this seems interesting
WHAT KIND OF BULLETING SYSTEM ARE YOU USING LOL.
jk, anyway this is the sort of thing I plan to do. I also want to determine if opponents are more vulerable to attack/take more damage while asleep. because that could lower the KO% for rest even more. And don't worry about the start-up lag, I've already taken care of that.
Arcrandom
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2008
- Messages
- 45
- 3DS FC
- 3110-5058-0892
ok so I noticed this when I was fighting fox. so when fox crashes into the ground with fire fox he bounces. if he lands next to you while singing he doesn't bounce, he goes right to sleep. I don't know how useful this is or if it wasn't just a one time thing when the planets aligned on a blue moon, but it was just something wierd I noticed.
Veril
Frame Savant
It isn't something weird. I've seen that as well.
MrEh
Smash Hero
They fall asleep, because they stood in front of Jiggs too long. XD
Maniclysane
Smash Lord
They don't fall asleep off stage. I wish they did though. Jigglypuff having a spike would be amazing.
illinialex24
Smash Hero
Yeah you can't fall asleep if you are in the air.
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
So very much fail. I have yet to find a situation where Sing is better then Pound, other then MAYBE ledge cancelled sing, but even then it's stupidly situational and good luck pulling it off more then once...ever.
Any kill by Jigglypuff is already humiliating, which is why jiggs is my favorite character.Long Live Sing! If it we could find a good way making it useful it would be the most humiliating Kills ever
The fact she's the aerial master, travels the farthest horizontal distance, can kill things by invoking flowers into their skulls and being incredibly cute the whole time makes her just awesome.
Also check out the When sing ***** section, sing is useful.
illinialex24
Smash Hero
Yeah, and I can steal the ledge from a Jigglypuff when they do this. Ledge canceled sing works if unexpected only.
First of all you can never really compare one move to another and say one is unanimously better than the next, every move is unique, and has a valuable strength to add to the character.
Pound is a great move, but there is really no way to compare it to sing. you wouldn't be able to compare a flint-lock pistol to a tranquilizer gun and say that one is in all aspects better. This is the same with sing and pound. Sing is the tranquilizer, it does no damage on it's own, but while their filled with anesthetics you can take out the chainsaw(rest) and make sure they're really dead. Pound is the pistol. it's reliable, sure, and has better range than the chain saw, but it's a one shot pistol and it is definitely possible that they will survive.
The good thing is that you have all three, the tranquilizer, the flint-lock, and the chainsaw to use in a balance to beat the enemy.
Compare sing and pound in this scenario:
Falcon is about to falcon punch you.
I'd rather use sing, and then rest him, it will do more damage and If I need a different attack like d-smash (if he's close to the ledge but too low in damage to rest) then i have it available.
Now let's say he's running towards you going for a grab. I'd rather use pound, cause he's falcon after all and he's running to fast to sing reliably. Even if you did pull off sing, he could stop running and avoid it. or wait for you to pause in between pulses and ram you.
Veril
Frame Savant
Actually, I believe there are exceptions to that.
1. I read about certain moves having a glitch that makes the game count them as being on a platform, and thus they can fall asleep.
2. Stage changes and disappearing platforms (Rainbow cruise...). I've KOed this way before. Also, on teams with Mario, squirtle, Ness or Sheik sing near the ledge is an effective instant KO.
My rest is the gun from Gears of War!
Veril
Frame Savant
Can you sing someone out of a roll?
It depends at what part of the roll you're talking about. when they go from shield to beginning of roll, then no you can't, however, if they finish their roll during one of the pulses, they are instantly put to sleep.
Again timing is a big factor here.
Again timing is a big factor here.
Veril
Frame Savant
Wrong, son!
As I said in my thread, invincibility only lasts for part of a roll.
MK's back roll: 33 frames, frames 4-12 incinvibility. So frames 1-3 and 13-33 are vulnerable. I basically want to know if rest will "out-prioritize" these frames of roll.
In fact, I knew you were wrong so I went and tested it myself. Not only does it work, but it can TRAP your opponent in the slide from a roll. Its like they are doing a sleep DACUS. This means a rest followup probably won't work but a DACUS can.
I'm looking into this.
fix'd lolWrong, son!
As I said in my thread, invincibility only lasts for part of a roll.
MK's back roll: 33 frames, frames 4-12 invincibility. So frames 1-3 and 13-33 are vulnerable. I basically want to know if rest will "out-prioritize" these frames of roll.
In fact, I knew I had slightly misunderstood what you were saying so I went and tested it myself. Not only does it work, but it can TRAP your opponent in the slide from a roll. Its like they are doing a sleep DACUS. This means a rest followup probably won't work but a DACUS can.
I'm looking into this.
Anyway, great find, but sing sacrifice(your sleep DACUS
) has been well known even before I began my research but I think you got confused cause that's kinda what I said lol That's why I specifically said that you can't sing them in the begging of the roll, cause they are indeed invincible. Now you say that the first few frames are vulnerable, cool find, but sing takes a few frames to start so unless they rolled into your already existing sing, than no dice in the begging.
If you have contradicting frame data I would love to see it, 'cause that means sing comes out fairly fast and that would definitely improve sing.
Anytime after that if a pulse connects, they sleep, we all know about the sing sacrifice idea, where during the roll you begin sing and they fly out farther in the given direction.
my advice would be to do what I said originally, start sing a tad later so that the pulse hits them as soon as they finish the roll this puts them to sleep right next to you, so you have more time to rest.
Oh well minor misconception, no worries
Veril
Frame Savant
Clearly we don't all know about sing sacrifice (what a bogus name). I have never heard of it before and uh... I know a lot about Jiggs. Eh, learn something new everyday.Anyway, great find, but sing sacrifice(your sleep DACUS
That's why I specifically said that you can't sing them in the begging of the roll, cause they are indeed invincible. Now you say that the first few frames are vulnerable, cool find, but sing takes a few frames to start so unless they rolled into your already existing sing, than no dice in the begging.
If you have contradicting frame data I would love to see it, 'cause that means sing comes out fairly fast and that would definitely improve sing.
Anytime after that if a pulse connects, they sleep, we all know about the sing sacrifice idea, where during the roll you begin sing and they fly out farther in the given direction.
That said, what you said about them being invincible at the beginning of a roll is completely false. I have some frame data in my thread. What I wanted to communicate goes like this: you are behind an opponent and begin sing while they are shielded. If a pulse coincides with ANY action they would take out of shield, except an attack with invincibility frames that can be performed OOS, they will sleep.
Jumping: ~7 frame startup.
Roll: generally at least a 3-frame startup.
Dodge: same.
Up-smash / b: varies.
Start sing as they shield or spotdodge. Not as they roll.
Maniclysane
Smash Lord
We can use sing during our DACUS? Dash Attack Cancelled Up Smash? I don't the same properties apply for special moves. Sing "DACUS" does not exist unless there are videos. :X
Veril
Frame Savant
no... that's not what I meant. A sing interrupted roll makes the opponent slide.
You can use sing out of a falldash or LCS.
GeneralWoodman
Smash Lord
its still extremely risky none the less
im just gonna stick to ledge cancels
im just gonna stick to ledge cancels
hmm, well it was used in melee by mango and King, so I thought it had transitioned over to brawl. The name actually came from a sing of a fairly decent puff if I'm not mistaken.
If I remember correctly the joke went like this;
*in a doubles match.*
Jiggs: hey roll next to me.
Fox: why?
Jiggs: Just do it.
Fox:*Rolls*
Jiggs: *Sings*
Jiggs: TAKE HIM INSTEAD!!
Hence Sing Sacrifice was used to doubles just for fun but found it's place in singles to, with a devastating effect on the enemy: shoot them towards the ledge for WoP.
For the other part of the post.
Well ok that's very good to know.
*Gives Veril a cookie for getting frame data*
hey Veril how many cookies do you have now?
you've been collecting them on a regular biases lol.
@woody: well Go to the practical section for some ways to avoid the risky-ness.
Also thanks Veril for clearing things up.
Veril
Frame Savant
Cool. <3 Smash history. Thanks!
Sweet. I have a cookie and a bag of cookies now.
The frame data for sing would be extremely useful to have.
Sweet. I have a cookie and a bag of cookies now.
The frame data for sing would be extremely useful to have.
WTF accidental double post!
but I'll make use of it I guess.
Also how do you get frame data cause I seriously need some for sing.
Also I've been practicing my rests, got some good ones on my latest fights but I need work on my aerial base.
but I'll make use of it I guess.
Also how do you get frame data cause I seriously need some for sing.
Also I've been practicing my rests, got some good ones on my latest fights but I need work on my aerial base.
Veril
Frame Savant
Yay Rest!
Can you shield-poke with Sing? If so when and with which pulse. That could be very useful.
Ask Illinialex about the frame data thing.
GeneralWoodman
Smash Lord
i read it, and great job but it doesn't solve the whole...ur in a mirror, u sing, ur opponent uses rollout, free ko yeeeee
Veril
Frame Savant
yeah, its worthless against Jiggs IMO.
Oh that would be great wouldn't it!
*runs off to go test*
also k i will ask Illin' about it
*another cookie for Veril*
and with all of these cookies, you'll need something to hold them in.
*gives Veril empty pillow case*
@Woody:Thanks!
Yeah in a mirror game you could have problems. Just remember Pound>Rollout and you'll be safe. Rest when they start rolling with you.
Veril
Frame Savant
Mirror matches almost never happen with Jiggs outside of friendlies. I've never had a Jiggs ditto when money was involved.
I use the cookies for operant conditioning of my Jigglypuff.
I like this thread but... I know you are trying to be cheeky and fun with the descriptions and stuff, but making it more concise, informative, readable and professional sounding would improve it greatly. You have some good info but its surrounding by extraneous chatter.
If you make it look more polished and again... professional I will link it in my READ THIS FIRST thread.
I use the cookies for operant conditioning of my Jigglypuff.
I like this thread but... I know you are trying to be cheeky and fun with the descriptions and stuff, but making it more concise, informative, readable and professional sounding would improve it greatly. You have some good info but its surrounding by extraneous chatter.
If you make it look more polished and again... professional I will link it in my READ THIS FIRST thread.
Well ok, I guess I could part with the slightly funny.
Veril
Frame Savant
If/When we have sing's frame data, something you could do is look at the "Frame advantage" of other character's movesets. Ie. If we shield an attack, how many frames do we have in which we can act and they cannot.
Take that # - Sings startup (use OOS) and you've got a list of viable sing counters.
That's out of a regular shield.
If you want to do powershield testing, here's the method I recommend.
go into training, set time at 1/4 (if you're doing this alone). Set CPU to control and start Perfect shielding attacks. Right after you input the attack have them buffer a shield and you sing immediately after the perfect shield. if they fall asleep before their shield comes out, perfect shield > rest is a possible counter (spacing will still be an issue).
Take that # - Sings startup (use OOS) and you've got a list of viable sing counters.
That's out of a regular shield.
If you want to do powershield testing, here's the method I recommend.
go into training, set time at 1/4 (if you're doing this alone). Set CPU to control and start Perfect shielding attacks. Right after you input the attack have them buffer a shield and you sing immediately after the perfect shield. if they fall asleep before their shield comes out, perfect shield > rest is a possible counter (spacing will still be an issue).