Meta Road to Stardom - Mario Metagame Thread (v1.1.1)

[Gidy]

I don't know what I was smoking when I said Ness. I do believe that the Rosalina MU is slightly in her favor. Don't forget, unlike most of the higher ups, Rosalina actually has good customs. I don't know enough about Sonic to really gauge the matchup, but he's always been one of my problem characters.

Respect spin dash or try to fire ball it. The reason why I think Mario wins the Rosie match is because of bthrow killing luna in one hit. Ness is 50-50, and he loses to Sheik.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm hoping I can play Espy in bracket sometime because that way I'll be able to show how that MU works.

The MU isn't really respecting Spin Dash but rather understanding that Sonic is really easy to juggle with Mario and you he has no answer to your shield pressure.

 

[JuanP_91]

I've found kind of a little trick with HP FLUUD.
It probably won't do much though :/

It consists of firing it while fully charged facing the edge while an opponent is nearby. The recoil pushes you really far back through your opponent, where FLUUD pushes him offstage.
The only way I see this being useful is against Mac.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The Diddy matchup from experience is in fact noticeably less awful now given the damage nerfs to his most powerful moves. I would say still 55/45 Diddy. His U-air and F-air still have dumb range and speed but at least going for an exchange against him is less of a losing situation. He still sucks at coming back from behind if he loses the lead too especially since he has to rely more than ever on Banana traps for his KOs, which are not quite as easy to set up on someone like Mario who has fast aerials.

 

[HeroMystic]

So my friends sometimes get caught in the u-tilt-u-tilt-utilt-utilt combo and it does massive damage. It doesnt work every time, and when i verse better players they get out of it easily. Does this easy bake combo work on any characters? In what percent range does it work? I'll be testing this out over the weekend, I'll post the results here. Reply with what you know and I'll put it in the OP.

Posts your results here.

As for what I know generally, fast-faller are able to DI downwards and avoid the U-tilt at below 10% (Fox, Falco, and Sheik can do this until 15% IIRC).

Once around 20% or so this starts to work on the majority of the cast. The ones who have a frame 3 N-air can break out the U-tilt chain pretty easily. The ones who can't, can DI upwards or behind Mario to avoid taking more than 3 U-tilts. The only ones who have to take multiple U-tilts beyond 3 is Captain Falcon and Link.

 

[MarioMeteor]

It's really not worth the trouble seeing as how you're only doing 4-5% per tilt.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Utilt rarely ever truly links against Utilt. I've managed to get it a few times against fastfallers around 20% where I believe it was a true combo.

Utilt -> Uair is more consistent most of the time, and lets you follow up with another one or two uairs usually.

 

[Xeze]

What would be the best custom set to use vs Rosalina? I use 1312 most of the time.

 

[MarioMeteor]

What would be the best custom set to use vs Rosalina? I use 1312 most of the time.

That sounds about right. I sometimes use Fire Orb instead of Fireball, if I'm feeling brave. I feel like up special can be interchangeable here.

 

[HeroMystic]

Shocking Cape might be worth exploring vs Rosalina.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Depends. Does Gust Cape push Luma away?

 

[HeroMystic]

Windboxes do not affect Luma.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Huh. So Luma is immune to 70% of the game. It was raised by God, I suppose.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Shocking Cape might be worth exploring vs Rosalina.

Shocking Cape just generally speaking is so good that I'd take it against almost anyone, except for the matchup specific cases where Gust Cape gimps/recovery or regular Cape reflects actually matter. Mario having an air KO move in most matchups is a huge deal, given it actually makes it scary to try to jump out of his strings.The disjoint on Shocking Cape is also pretty massive and it just straight up beats most attacks. This makes Shocking Cape just generally speaking pretty hard to go wrong with.

Also F-throw -> Shocking Cape is the best combo ever.

 

[MarioMeteor]

While we're on the subject of customs, let me ask one thing: why do people sleep on Fire Orb? It's not as bad as some people say, although I think Mega Capsule is better. Frankly, if it had better frames, it'd probably be one of his best customs.

 

[Xeze]

Fire Orb's startup is atrocious, that's probably why.

 

[HeroMystic]

The start-up and end-lag is extremely atrocious.

 

[A2ZOMG]

So yeah, it just occurred to me. Mario would be SO MUCH BETTER if his D-air hits properly linked into the final and had the autolink angle. This would give him TWO important KO options. The first being you would be able to way more consistently KO people with D-air vertically in juggles.

The second being that autolink would make D-air landing hit a much more reliable combo starter as well.

Just speaking hypothetically.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

It actually really bothers me that it doesn't hit. >_> It did in Brawl as far as I remember. It's really dumb.

 

[HeroMystic]

It is very atrocious that it doesn't link properly. Fortunately not everyone can break out of it, but it makes the high/top tier MUs fairly more annoying due to lack of consistency.

I personally enjoy D-air, especially when fresh. It can kill off the top surprisingly well (better than Up-B), and I know @Kwam$tack$ loves doing this on Halberd. I do see D-air not properly linking into the final hit as a legitimate bug however.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It actually really bothers me that it doesn't hit. >_> It did in Brawl as far as I remember. It's really dumb.

I didn't talk about it in Brawl, but I actually noticed much later on that the multihits didn't true combo into the last (meaning to my recollection, Marth and Jigglypuff could punish it on hit with fully invincible reversals). Though in terms of people falling out of it, that happened a bit less to SH D-air given back in Brawl our short hop was lower. Pikachu if I recall was the main annoying character that fell out of it a lot.

 

[HeroMystic]

This is on the front page, but this is super important.

 

[JuanP_91]

Do you guys prefer normal Fireball or Fast Fireball? I'm kind of doubtful about it since they're both awesome imo.

I personally use FF to gimp offstage or for stopping the enemy during startup animations, and normal Fireball for air vs ground situations and as a small way of pressuring.

But, I'm probably wrong on this so I need expert opinion.

 

[HeroMystic]

Fast Fireball is a poor man's anti-air tool. It stops characters from doing aerial approaches at the cost of damage and hitstun. I personally find the lack of versatility to be very detrimental and seriously damages Mario's ability to recover onto the stage. It's only benefit is it's fast recovery.

Default Fireball is more versatile, does more damage, and helps Mario in recovery situations. It's only issue is the absolutely terrible endlag it has (~47 frames), forcing it to be used sparingly.

 

[Macedonian]

Id like to talk a little bit about what is the best thing we can do vs very safe attacks, things like no lag smashes such as the G&W and Ganon upsmashes. Where is the best spot to put mario in these situations? Is it better to try and just straight up best out these attacks or just try to avoid them all together??

 

[HeroMystic]

Toss out a fireball or if you have customs on, Scalding FLUDD doesn't care about those things at all.

 

[Macedonian]

I don't play customs, not a big fan of them ATM.

Won't fireball just clank with their attack?

 

[HeroMystic]

It's on them to time it correctly. The fireball is just there for free damage. Ganon's and G&W's U-Smash you don't contest at all as default Mario.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Your best bet is probably just to avoid it. If you really want to push your luck, you have a frame 2 Jab and neutral air. Still not recommended. Otherwise, like Mystic said, chuck a Fireball at em. You could also push them away with FLUDD.

 

[Macedonian]

I can't close the gap from being at a safe distance to jab range without eating a ftilt, I was wondering if a sprint attack can hit under game and watches helmet thus beating the upsmash?

Hero do you mind if I ask you a little bit about how to play Rosaluma, I know that Bthrow kills luna but I have such a hard time getting a grab in the matchup. Is there any other way to efficiently deal with luma?

 

[MarioMeteor]

I can't close the gap from being at a safe distance to jab range without eating a ftilt, I was wondering if a sprint attack can hit under game and watches helmet thus beating the upsmash?

You could, but there's the chance that it'll trade, which you don't want. I really wouldn't even try to punish it because it's so safe.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Fast Fireball is a poor man's anti-air tool. It stops characters from doing aerial approaches at the cost of damage and hitstun. I personally find the lack of versatility to be very detrimental and seriously damages Mario's ability to recover onto the stage. It's only benefit is it's fast recovery.

Default Fireball is more versatile, does more damage, and helps Mario in recovery situations. It's only issue is the absolutely terrible endlag it has (~47 frames), forcing it to be used sparingly.

We already get custom capes for recovery options, and Fast Fireball's lower commitment helps noticeably for turning around juggle situations.

F-throw -> Fast Fireball also combos and sets up trap situations offstage. A little gimmicky but that option exists.

I prefer Fast Fireball by a significant margin personally. The low damage doesn't bother me when I can still force approaches with it (matters a lot against Luigi and Ganondorf especially), refresh moves, and use it better than default to get out of juggles. Aside from something like the Link, Ness, and DDD matchups, the only thing you can't really do with Fast Fireball that sorta matters imo is fake approach B reverse Fireball.

 

[JuanP_91]

F-throw -> Fast Fireball also combos and sets up trap situations offstage. A little gimmicky but that option exists

Another thing I noticed is it can Jab Reset much better than normal Fireball with its speed and minimum lag.
Not sure about when, but I'd say around 80% up

 

[mario123007]

Another thing I noticed is it can Jab Reset much better than normal Fireball with its speed and minimum lag.
Not sure about when, but I'd say around 80% up

Oh yeah, Rosalina forum has opened a new MU thread:http://smashboards.com/threads/rosalina-match-up-analysis-r2-mario.404695/#post-19312393

 

[HeroMystic]

Apparently there are balance changes.

Keep an eye out, guys.

 

[mario123007]

Apparently there are balance changes.

Keep an eye out, guys.

I don't think Mario will have any big changes.

 

[HeroMystic]

There doesn't appear to be any. However, Marth, Ike, and Roy could be legitimate threats now.

 

[mario123007]

There doesn't appear to be any. However, Marth, Ike, and Roy could be legitimate threats now.

"Sigh", I had never like those who has sword. I had problems especially on Marth, Roy... we'll see.

 

[Kulty]

Hey guys,

So after watching the top 8 of EVO 2015, there was only one man representing our beloved iconic hero Mario, Mr. Ally himself. He finished in 5th place which is a pretty great spot. After this event, I was wondering that if it does this actually mean great things of Mario's future competitive metagame? He placed really high at a high level tournament like this. Like it came to this as results :

1st : ZeRo (representing and )
2nd : Mr. R (representing )
3rd : Nairo (representing )
4th : Abadango (representing and. A bit of )
5th : Ally (representing ) and Dabuz (representing )
7th : ESAM (representing ) and FOW (representing )

With this, it really brings back confidence and put a smile on my face when Mario made this far. He really does have the amazing potential. I still think he's a high tier character, not a top-tier but still pretty solid. What do you guys think about this?

 

[BJN39]

I'm just dropping by to let the Mario boards know that the Zeldas have started a rediscussion thread for the Mario MU and we'd love to have you over for input. Since the last time we did Mario discussion was before the metagame could really develop, and it was a couple patches ago, maybe we can get some good discussion now. ^^

click Zelda to be teleported directly to the thread!