Rolls seem problematic in this game

[Jahordon]

Maybe I'm just awful, but I'm really getting frustrated with Toon Links that just roll around spamming their boomerangs and bombs. Way too much of a pain in the ass to deal with.

 

[Freezie KO]

Rolls are so safe that they enable way too much projectile spam as well. It's so easy for a ROB to just roll back 3 times to avoid all confrontation. Then they can do their gyro and laser spam all day. Approaches are so difficult that you just get shield grabbed if you try anything.

Sheik can do the same thing and she's even faster and more effective. It's like Sakurai forgot that these characters not only had to be fun to play as but also to play against.

 

[Prawn]

1) Yoshi can combat rollers.

2) All you need are those moves to fight rollers.

3) Use dash attack or throw to pop them in the air and THEN finish them somehow. Either meteor f-air them or u-air pressure them proper.

side note) N-air can ko before 200, but it depends on who's hit and where.

4) Using Greninja as a test subject for overall roll effectiveness is one-sided. Greninja has one of the best rolls in the game, period. You can still land a dash attack with a good read, and that leads to pressure or free u-air strings.

5) Standing out-right is probably the safest option getting up from the ledge without quick-falling and coming up with (hopefully) a high-priority attack, and even that can be hit. You don't want to make it too easy for someone like Shiek to punish nearly any and every defensive option in the game. This isn't Marvel. Just d-air the spot they come up at and if they roll or jump, they cant come back around and hit you anyway.

Not to mention, even if yoshi "couldn't combat rollers" that would be a yoshi issue. Not a game issue

 

[Freezie KO]

Are rolls as problematic in local play as they are in For Glory? I just played against a roll abusing Link who just rolled out of the way of any approach and spammed projectiles. Even spot dodging seemed to be very hard to punish. Can these be punished easier in local? Is it the lag/input lag that causes abusable rolls? Or is it just the lack of cooldown frames?

 

[otter]

Are rolls as problematic in local play as they are in For Glory? I just played against a roll abusing Link who just rolled out of the way of any approach and spammed projectiles. Even spot dodging seemed to be very hard to punish. Can these be punished easier in local? Is it the lag/input lag that causes abusable rolls? Or is it just the lack of cooldown frames?

online latency definitely amplifies the problem, but the discussion is based more around the lack of cooldown frames. whiffing a two hit downsmash against a correctly read forward roll and getting punished has nothing to do with lag.

 

[Strider_123]

i find myself just short of countering their rolls most of the time and end up getting attacked myself.

 

[LancerStaff]

i find myself just short of countering their rolls most of the time and end up getting attacked myself.

Ever try charged arrows? Works great for me.

 

[-LzR-]

I'm having a good time expecting the opponent to roll behind me so I do a Dsmash before he starts his roll. The opponent is caught rolling through me while I am about to Dsmash and oh wait powershield and I get heavily punished because I read my opponent doing one of the dumbest things you can do which is rolling behind someone.

In Brawl for example it was really easy to just do a fast move and if the opponent rolled behind you I just did a reverse jab or grab on reaction and win. In Smash 4 the issue is not that rolls are too hard to punish. It's that you are required to commit to punishing the roll which may not even come out. You have to take a huge risk to punish the opponent doing ******** things. Being able to reposition out of bad situations for pretty much free is not acceptable. Think if in Street Fighter you would have to punish a dragon punch before it came out instead of punishing it for free on block. That would be ********.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm having a good time expecting the opponent to roll behind me so I do a Dsmash before he starts his roll. The opponent is caught rolling through me while I am about to Dsmash and oh wait powershield and I get heavily punished because I read my opponent doing one of the dumbest things you can do which is rolling behind someone.

In Brawl for example it was really easy to just do a fast move and if the opponent rolled behind you I just did a reverse jab or grab on reaction and win. In Smash 4 the issue is not that rolls are too hard to punish. It's that you are required to commit to punishing the roll which may not even come out. You have to take a huge risk to punish the opponent doing ******** things. Being able to reposition out of bad situations for pretty much free is not acceptable. Think if in Street Fighter you would have to punish a dragon punch before it came out instead of punishing it for free on block. That would be ********.

Rolls don't deal damage, though. Use a faster move if Dsmash somehow isn't working for you.

 

[-LzR-]

If I use a faster move the risk/reward will be skewed even more in the rolling players favor. What if he doesn't roll? I turn around and jab in the wrong direction and look like an idiot and eat a foot in the face.

 

[LancerStaff]

If I use a faster move the risk/reward will be skewed even more in the rolling players favor. What if he doesn't roll? I turn around and jab in the wrong direction and look like an idiot and eat a foot in the face.

That's always been like that. Mindgames, dude.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

online latency definitely amplifies the problem, but the discussion is based more around the lack of cooldown frames. whiffing a two hit downsmash against a correctly read forward roll and getting punished has nothing to do with lag.

The fact that you can Roll into Shulks D-Smash that hits 3x, and roll through all 3 hits moving from the front hitbox to the back hitbox and back to the front hitbox is absurd.

 

[LancerStaff]

The fact that you can Roll into Shulks D-Smash that hits 3x, and roll through all 3 hits moving from the front hitbox to the back hitbox and back to the front hitbox is absurd.

You can run right through the move, lol. I like to punish the move midway with a grab as Pit.

 

[-LzR-]

That's always been like that. Mindgames, dude.

No, in the past I could do a quick poke and still have enough time to cover the roll afterwards. Now if I jab my opponent and he rolls behind me I am ****ed and my opponent probably had no idea what he was doing.
Rolling is way too powerful for how much it does and how much risk there is in trying to punish it. The risk should be for the player rolling, not the one who missed a dsmash on a roll read because there is no lag on them.

 

[LancerStaff]

No, in the past I could do a quick poke and still have enough time to cover the roll afterwards. Now if I jab my opponent and he rolls behind me I am ****ed and my opponent probably had no idea what he was doing.
Rolling is way too powerful for how much it does and how much risk there is in trying to punish it. The risk should be for the player rolling, not the one who missed a dsmash on a roll read because there is no lag on them.

Depends who you are.

But look, I'm no good with theoretical situations. All I know is that I can punish rolls with just about any move Pit has.

 

[-LzR-]

Depends who you are.

But look, I'm no good with theoretical situations. All I know is that I can punish rolls with just about any move Pit has.

So can I, but it's still way too powerful for what you gain for rolling.

 

[LancerStaff]

So can I, but it's still way too powerful for what you gain for rolling.

Don't exactly gain much if you're hit for it.

 

[otter]

Don't exactly gain much if you're hit for it.

Honestly, rolling toward the center of the stage as having your opponent push you there without any chance of meaningfully hurting you isn't that bad.

 

[LancerStaff]

Honestly, rolling toward the center of the stage as having your opponent push you there without any chance of meaningfully hurting you isn't that bad.

11% from Pit's Sspecial isn't meaningful?

 

[-LzR-]

11% from Pit's Sspecial isn't meaningful?

Not at all. What if the opponent doesn't roll? You are now doing a sideB in the wrong direction like a fool.

 

[LancerStaff]

Not at all. What if the opponent doesn't roll? You are now doing a sideB in the wrong direction like a fool.

...Sliding across the stage, being in a pretty safe position for a 11% damage move whiffing.

 

[EarthBoundRules]

Sadly, the most effective way I've found for slower characters to catch up to the opponent rolling away form them is to roll in the the same direction with them. I really hope rolls are changed in a future patch.

 

[BrianYDG]

As a Jiggs main; I'll say if someone spams rolls you are in heaven. Pound destroys shields and every character can be rested from a roll because they can't move for a few frames after doing it. fAir and nAir are strong too if you know they're going to roll.
Granted yes rolling is absurdly more powerful in comparison to Melee but it's still definitely do able. Online makes it somewhat difficult but I wouldn't worry about it too much in local play.

 

[Shaya]

Ughh, I know I may be beating a dead horse here a little, but I think this is somewhat reflective of what I was seeing (older discussion).

If we pretend for a second the game isn't 60fps, but rather 240fps (1/4 speed, can get smooth flowing in training mode).

This is a 6 frame gif, first frame is 'neutral'/walking frame, while 2-5 are a shield start up animation (1 full frame), yet shield appears 1/4th of a frame later on the 6th frame for a power shield.

Going by this, shield comes up in not 1 frame, but rather 1.25 frames.

 

[B!squick]

You guys need to learn to just breathe fire on your problems. Right Charizard mains?

 

[Losnar]

Punish rolls with dash canceled forward tilts (dash and then do a forward tilt in the opposite direction) or with a quick long lasting move like Mario's nair.

Yeah, frame traps are a nice way to punish rolls.

 

[RODO]

It's not even that the rolls are fast, I'm ok with that, but it's the fact that they are fast and have invincibility for the entire duration coupled with the fact that you can immediately act out of (most of) them. It's not fun for players or spectators when you have to chase down roll spammers. It's just toxic gameplay imo.

 

[BoldFish]

With the awesome new pivot mechanics and removal of tripping, it's sad to see rolling as the main method of movement.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Commuting to a 30 frame action is better than dashing or walking?

News to me.

 

[Shaya]

Unfortunately we have 25 frame rolls in this game; primarily on the top 10 characters everyone hates/is on the top of most people's perceived tier lists.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Unfortunately we have 25 frame rolls in this game; primarily on the top 10 characters everyone hates/is on the top of most people's perceived tier lists.

interesting, where are there main differences with this among the cast?

 

[-LzR-]

Commuting to a 30 frame action is better than dashing or walking?

News to me.

It's almost faster to just roll around to move instead of running. And running doesn't even have invincibility.

 

[LancerStaff]

It's almost faster to just roll around to move instead of running. And running doesn't even have invincibility.

But it's painfully obvious where you'll end up, and you'll be vulnerable at the end and you'll get punished. You're essentially free to do whatever you want out of dashes.

 

[RODO]

But it's painfully obvious where you'll end up, and you'll be vulnerable at the end and you'll get punished. You're essentially free to do whatever you want out of dashes.

Just humor me for a second. Are you a roll spammer?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It's almost faster to just roll around to move instead of running. And running doesn't even have invincibility.

You still are forced into that animation for x amount of frames. 2 frame difference if the average is 25 frames vs Brawl Lucario's roll.

And surprise I've had people punish me rolling back and forward.

Admitingly some characters are better or worse at punishing this but overall this really isn't nearly as unpunishable and people think it is.

Using a roll properly is fIbe gameplay wise, using it over raw dashing or movement is silly.

 

[LancerStaff]

Just humor me for a second. Are you a roll spammer?

No, but I do roll when I'm nervous and get get hit for it almost every time. And I'm pretty sure Pit and Dark Pit have pretty good rolls, all things considered.

 

[RODO]

You still are forced into that animation for x amount of frames. 2 frame difference if the average is 25 frames vs Brawl Lucario's roll.

And surprise I've had people punish me rolling back and forward.

Admitingly some characters are better or worse at punishing this but overall this really isn't nearly as unpunishable and people think it is.

Using a roll properly is fIbe gameplay wise, using it over raw dashing or movement is silly.

Ok I have have 2 things for you. First is that rolls are indeed punishable. I don't think anyone is arguing that. But from experience they are very hard to deal with, so much so that sometimes I'm forced to switch characters just to punish rolls which is kind of lame imo. Second thing is idk how everyone here could not agree that giving some of the quick rolls less invincibility or more start up would balance the game further AND make it more fun to play and watch.

I'm not really sure what the deal is for defending rolls. What would be the downside to nerfing rolls?

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm not really sure what the deal is for defending rolls. What would be the downside to nerfing rolls?

That they're already terrible to begin with.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

rolls aren't terrible don't kid yourself.

 

[RODO]

That they're already terrible to begin with.

I guess I'm just having trouble seeing how others aren't coming to the conclusion that rolling in this game has brought about some pretty toxic gameplay. I've legit read rolls only to whiff because they chained another roll before my attack could even come out. Like rolled behind and back in front in less time than it took for a tilt or smash to come out. I know how to punish rolls in this game. For me I just pick DK and down b anyone who rolls behind me but man is that lame that I even have to counter pick based on a mechanic that's supposedly not a big deal to some of you guys.