Roster Prediction Discussion Thread

[IsmaR]

Humor is wasted on some people.

Also above all, I liked that you used mainly 2D art. The roster itself isn't half bad, either.

 

[PlatinumGamer64]

Lucario's so 4th gen.

Here are some cutting tips:

1. If you have Takamaru get rid of Samurai Goroh. Having more Pok'emon reps should be a bigger priority than F-Zero.
2. Replace Andy & Karate Joe with more deserving characters like Starfy & Issac. (Karate Joe should be a sticker)
3. You have Wii Fit Trainer, so I don't think Karate Joe is not needed (to be honest he's not needed EVER). The have similar fighting style.
4. Lucas should replace Ness, that was the original plan for Melee and Brawl.
5. If you only have 2 FE reps it should be Marth & Ike.
6. 3 Poke'mon and NO Poke'mon Trainer. That is not gonna happen. Not to mention there is 649 Poke'mon you just remove 3 of them.

The way you cut characters was desperate. You leave out such popular and more deserving people to make room for obscure and undesired people. You also said Lucario is "so 4th gen" isn't that literally the equivalent to saying Jigglypuff is so 1st gen. Both Poke'mon are WAY more popular than that. However I am okay with Newmew replacing Lucario (But, my brother would be devastated ). Also Ike is way more loved, popular, and unique than Chrom. Chrom can get in, but not if it means booting Ike.

Sakurai said not every character may reappear.
But, his roster would never be this incredibly disappointing in terms of variety. Also you can count on Ganon not being a thing. (But, I see where you're going there with giving him his own moveset.)

 

[Opossum]

Here are some cutting tips:

1. If you have Takamaru get rid of Samurai Goroh. Having more Pok'emon reps should be a bigger priority than F-Zero.

Are you honestly implying that Takamaru and Goroh couldn't coexist? They may both wield katanas, but their styles are completely different.

2. Replace Andy & Karate Joe with more deserving characters like Starfy & Issac. (Karate Joe should be a sticker)

I agree here.

3. You have Wii Fit Trainer, so I don't think Karate Joe is not needed (to be honest he's not needed EVER). The have similar fighting style.

Technically speaking, karate is much different than what WFT does. But I agree in cutting Karate Joe.

4. Lucas should replace Ness, that was the original plan for Melee and Brawl.

Haha, no. There's actually a theory, considering Sakurai said replacing Ness with the "Mother 3 protagonist," and based on early concept art, that the character in question was actually an older Ness. There's a post for this somewhere, but basically, it showed what looked like Ness, but about Flint's age. Hence, some believe that Sakurai originally wanted to "replace" Ness with the older version of himself. Take that with a grain of salt, though.

But Lucas would never replace Ness. He's a Smash staple now.

5. If you only have 2 FE reps it should be Marth & Ike.

I agree here.

6. 3 Poke'mon and NO Poke'mon Trainer. That is not gonna happen. Not to mention there is 649 Poke'mon you just remove 3 of them.

The way you cut characters was desperate. You leave out such popular and more deserving people to make room for obscure and undesired people. You also said Lucario is "so 4th gen" isn't that literally the equivalent to saying Jigglypuff is so 1st gen. Both Poke'mon are WAY more popular than that. However I am okay with Newmew replacing Lucario (But, my brother would be devastated ). Also Ike is way more loved, popular, and unique than Chrom. Chrom can get in, but not if it means booting Ike.

Generally this, but in a less yell-y sense.

 

[Reznor]

5. If you only have 2 FE reps it should be Marth & Ike.

I disagree Ike should be replaced by a newer character the only reason Ike got in brawl is because his games were the most current same with Roy in melee
Marth is the mascot for FE so its a given he should stay

 

[Hippopotasauce]

I'll accept replacing Andy with Lucas but otherwise my roster is indisputably, objectively perfect and unflawed in every way

 

[Reznor]

I'll accept replacing Andy with Lucas but otherwise my roster is indisputably, objectively perfect and unflawed in every way

I would replace the other F-Zero character with Dixie Kong but other than that its a great list

 

[Opossum]

I disagree Ike should be replaced by a newer character the only reason Ike got in brawl is because his games were the most current same with Roy in melee
Marth is the mascot for FE so its a given he should stay

 

[IsmaR]

It's not my roster, therefore I disagree.

 

[Hippopotasauce]

[pic]

I don't see what's so wrong with his post.
That's been the pattern so far, and if it changes it'll be something we couldn't have predicted.
Edit: Wait hold on, I see what's wrong with his post.

 

[Reznor]

snip

I would be glad to hear why i'm wrong

 

[Opossum]

Recentness had very little, if anything, to do with Roy and Ike getting in.

Roy, as we know, wasn't originally supposed to be in Melee, but Sakurai was looking for last minute clones. He wanted another Fire Emblem character. He literally only chose Roy due to his flaming sword offering a more unique flair.

Ike was an extremely popular request pre-Brawl, as far as Fire Emblem characters go. When he went to Intelligent Systems for advise on who to add from Fire Emblem, they suggested Ike, noting his popularity.

These sources can be found in the info thread more than likely. In short, both of their inclusions had little, if anything, to do with recentness.

Not to mention, Roy was intended to be in Brawl alongside Marth and Ike, so he wasn't "replaced." Assuming that the same thing (being a coincidental time constraint often assumed to be a replacement) will happen, despite evidence going against it, isn't really logical to do.

 

[Reznor]

Recentness had very little, if anything, to do with Roy and Ike getting in.

Roy, as we know, wasn't originally supposed to be in Melee, but Sakurai was looking for last minute clones. He wanted another Fire Emblem character. He literally only chose Roy due to his flaming sword offering a more unique flair.

Ike was an extremely popular request pre-Brawl, as far as Fire Emblem characters go. When he went to Intelligent Systems for advise on who to add from Fire Emblem, they suggested Ike, noting his popularity.

These sources can be found in the info thread more than likely. In short, both of their inclusions had little, if anything, to do with recentness.

Not to mention, Roy was intended to be in Brawl alongside Marth and Ike, so he wasn't "replaced." Assuming that the same thing (being a coincidental time constraint often assumed to be a replacement) will happen, despite evidence going against it, isn't really logical to do.

good to know man I was wrong
would like Roy with a new move set

 

[Gune]

Recentness had very little, if anything, to do with Roy and Ike getting in.

Roy, as we know, wasn't originally supposed to be in Melee, but Sakurai was looking for last minute clones. He wanted another Fire Emblem character. He literally only chose Roy due to his flaming sword offering a more unique flair.

Ike was an extremely popular request pre-Brawl, as far as Fire Emblem characters go. When he went to Intelligent Systems for advise on who to add from Fire Emblem, they suggested Ike, noting his popularity.

These sources can be found in the info thread more than likely. In short, both of their inclusions had little, if anything, to do with recentness.

Not to mention, Roy was intended to be in Brawl alongside Marth and Ike, so he wasn't "replaced." Assuming that the same thing (being a coincidental time constraint often assumed to be a replacement) will happen, despite evidence going against it, isn't really logical to do.

This is one of the reason's I keep saying Ike and Lucario both have a chance of coming back as good as anyone else on the roster these supposed patterns are just wild acusations at best.

 

[Opossum]

good to know man I was wrong
would like Roy with a new move set

I would love it if he got some sort of fire wave slash-type thing for a Neutral B. Slash the air, and cause a wave of fire to move through the air.

 

[Hippopotasauce]

Ok, ok.
New idea.
Let's assume that my original roster was a minimalist roster with the most amount of cuts possible, and that I will make a new one without the cutting of more embraced characters.
Yeah let's do that.

 

[PlatinumGamer64]

I disagree Ike should be replaced by a newer character the only reason Ike got in brawl is because his games were the most current same with Roy in melee
Marth is the mascot for FE so its a given he should stay

Yeah, it wasn't because Ike had 2 installments unlike most FE heroes and has uniqueness. Being the character you are plays a bigger role in selection than you think. Lucario wasn't put in JUST because Gen 4 was more recent. He had, popularity & potential like Ike did. Where as Chrom is not as popular as Ike or has as much potential. Lucas is an example of someone picked because of recency. Chrom is an example of picking a character purely because he's "flavor of the month". Where as Ike and Lucario had more to them.

I simply cannot believe the enourmous amount of people who pick characters because of recency and shoot down other characters because of lack of recency. What matters is WHO the character is. Someone people recognize, popular, or has potential.

I'd actually go as far to say the majority of Smash Fans are like that.

Are you honestly implying that Takamaru and Goroh couldn't coexist?

No I am not, I am saying in the situation of a small character roster, it makes sense to just have Takamaru. If there are NEW characters in a small roster it would be best that they be as different (QUOTE ME): "as much as possible."

for example picking between Ike and Chrom
or
Lucario and Mewtwo. YES! I am fully aware they have MANY differences, but given they have SOME similarities one could say (in the situation of a small character roster such as this.) It may make sense to pick one.

Also I apoligize if what I said was said in a (how you say) "Yell-y sense" I don't intend to scold this user.

 

[Hippopotasauce]

Alright, I've fixed it.
Although I think 46 is pushing a bit on the size of the roster.

Also good luck on convincing me to remove Karate Joe.

 

[PlatinumGamer64]

PlatinumGamer64's Roster 2.5 (Credit to Johnathan & Noah)

 

[Morbi]

PlatinumGamer64's Roster 2.5 (Credit to Noah & Johnathan)

That is probably the best roster I have ever seen anyone make... except for Sheriff... like WTF? He is the only one that seems out of place.

 

[Deleted member]

@Opossum: Also another thing is Roy is that he was not added just to promote his game, but to promote his entire series and that Roy's inclusion was Sakurai's own idea.

It's not my roster, therefore I disagree.

Well it's certainly why I stopped commenting on rosters, unless of course someone asks for criticism and no one has given it yet (but what are the chances of that happening especially when this thread is going so fast?).

 

[PlatinumGamer64]

That is probably the best roster I have ever seen anyone make... except for Sheriff... like WTF? He is the only one that seems out of place.

Oh, wow! Thanks, dude! I have to say you also are one of the brightest on SmashBoards.

Also as for Sheriff. Yeeeeeeah, even though he was the first Nintendo rep, and he'd represent the arcade. I can think of a lot of reasons why he might not work.

 

[Hippopotasauce]

Bomberman, Paper Mario, Ninten, and Skullkid are all goofball choices.
Other than that it's a pretty average roster, if a little bit too vanilla.

I approve of Sheriff though, brilliant choice.

 

[Croph]

Recency does play a part but it only helps a character get noticed, beyond that it's relatively meaningless (I say relatively because we don't know about how deeply Sakurai thinks about character additions).

Big example of this would be Sakurai's recent admission of how he selects Pokemon characters by looking through recent Pokemon media. However, it seems that next to no one fully read through the entire article to see what he said in addition:

find out which ones are going to be central to any of conversations in Pokemon going forward."

"But it’s not just that – going back to just what we talked about, what’s unique about them? Where do they fit in with the rest of everything else? What do they have? It’s a combination of those things."

If this doesn't confirm that the "Flavors of the Month" theory is ridiculous I don't know what does.

He's looking for memorable and unique characters, not ones that he can just easily replace with each and every game. Roy & Pichu getting into Melee, and Lucario & Ike getting into Brawl while Roy & Mewtwo were cut is just a simple coincidence. If you know anything about Pokemon & Fire Emblem in recent years, you'll know that Lucario & Ike are actually a LOT harder to cut than one might think (Lucario, who's had several Gen 5 appearances, and Ike who's received heavy nods in FE13 in addition to his descendant Priam).

Can I seriously bring this post up whenever people bring up relevancy issues? <3

Actually, BKupa also made a good post about relevancy some time ago that I really liked :

I am invested very little in Pokemon representation, so I'm going to touch on "relevance" in general, though it can pertain to the series. You're correct in that random one-offs (Gooey, Wart, Link's Uncle, etc.) aren't viable for Smash, partially because they're, well, one-offs and haven't had a chance to develop their importance with additional appearances. But that's almost never why "relevance" is brought up as a talking point. Users who dislike or are unfamiliar with a character (to quote shinpichu) handle "relevance" as a badge of honor with an expiration date; a character who appears at all in a recent game is a safe pick, whereas anyone who misses so much as a single game sees their chances plummet. And this 'safe pick' status is only good until the user decides this recent appearance isn't recent enough, that they now must appear again and again to keep renewing "relevance." Inherently flawed and selective to the core.

I compared "relevance" to moveset potential as a fan-created argument before, and feel the comparison stands; a character having a vast movepool may help, but a lack of one definitely doesn't hurt a character's chances...I'm sure I don't have to list all the newcomers and veterans who have had entire movesets made from scratch. Same goes for all the characters who appeared in Melee and Brawl despite being "irrelevant."

I feel as though these posts ought to have more publicity...

Really, as far as I know, Sakurai has not made any statements regarding relevance playing a [significant] role when choosing characters (unless I'm wrong). And besides, we've gotten multiple characters that are considered "irrelevant" in the past so relevancy should not be a reason to cut characters (like Lucario, though he's still gets promotion even today) and have an impact on newcomers like Roy and the like.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

So I missed like a gazillion pages while I was gone.

What in the holy **** happened here?!?!?!

Noah is back?

Pretty sure my roster got stomped into oblivion by the several pages, so....

Quick recap:

Cut Pac-Man from my previous roster, Cut Dillon.

Added Roy

Cut Mii's as I don't consider them a part of the roster if they are customizable and transferable.

Total of 47 characters on roster, with 52 counting transformations.

Thoughts? (Fire Emblem characters at 4 is probably too many but a man can dream right?)

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

PlatinumGamer64's Roster 2.5 (Credit to Johnathan & Noah)

At first, I saw the "alternate possibilities" and Skull Kid and Ninten and thought "Oh god, Noah's back". Wasn't ready to put up with Noah again. And then I saw the detail that you're supposedly his brother. As long as you don't shove the idea that your roster is perfect down everyone's throats, you'll do fine. Just don't repeat Noah's mistakes is all I ask. Again, if you really aren't Noah, welcome to the thread.

So my question is, why did you make some of the choices you did for your roster? Like, why Lyn in the midst of four Fire Emblem characters, and why Skull Kid has a higher priority choice than such characters as Ghirahim or even Toon Link? They just seem like unorthodox choices, so I'm curious.

 

[Deleted member]

@Croph: Thing is about relevancy is that it does play a very important part in character decisions. The issue is that people keep mixing up relevancy with recentness, which are not the same thing. Relevancy is actually synonymous with importance and that is what is important to consider.

King K. Rool may not have made major recent appearance lately, but he's still relevant to the franchise because he is still the villain people associate with the DK franchise. That's not something you can say with the villain of Jungle Beat, Returns or Tropical Freeze.

 

[Croph]

@SSBF: Ahhh. Not gonna lie, I was actually searching for the term "recentness", I remember it being brought up with the relevancy debate multiple times in the past. It was at the tip of my tongue but I just couldn't remember...but thanks for clearing everything up.

At any rate, I guess I should post my revised roster since E3 has already pasted... *sigh* I'm still unsure about the total number of characters we'll get, though I'm still going for the minimalistic approach.

 

[Gune]

@Croph Yeah roster size is anybody's guess right now with sakurai and his interveiw's first he says were at the limit of charecters then says that the 3ds may limit the amount of charecters again now he says he's trying to add as many as he can and that noone has been cut from development yet the guy just cant make up his mind but so far its looking pretty bright for a roster of 40+ atleast....

 

[DragonSniperNintendo]

I would say personally that the roster should be around 45-48

 

[---]

Honestly relevancy is a tough issue to discuss and that's very easy to over-speculate on. All I care about is being able to prove that Sakurai isn't as shallow and predicable when it comes to character selection (such as "Flavors of the Month") as it might first appear.

Outside of that I would say to let common sense speak for itself. It doesn't take a genius. though it certainly seems like it does at times, to figure out that K. Rool's importance and familiarity within the DK series makes him a perfect rep despite not being in Returns.

Can I seriously bring this post up whenever people bring up relevancy issues? <3

First you gotta pay the copyright fee.

Most people won't listen to reason when you're quoting some random stranger. Just remember the article and develop your own take on it next time you get into a rough debate.

Actually, BKupa also made a good post about relevancy some time ago that I really liked :

Mine's better. Use mine instead. :3

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

I would say personally that the roster should be around 45-48

This. Makes sense why I made my roster a size of 48 (formerly 45) as apposed to 50 in the first place.

I'm in the middle of making a mini-roster for DLC focusing on new characters. I'll go for 12 since that's the maximum number of DLC characters for fighters nowadays, especially Tekken Tag Tournament 2 and Street Fighter x Tekken.

 

[Morbi]

I don't know. I am not getting my hopes up. A roster of about 40 seems fine to me.

 

[Starbound]

40-45 would be acceptable to me, in terms of characters on the selection screen. Including transformations, I think 50 is realistically the maximum.

 

[Reznor]

I don't think we will get more than 45 characters and I think its a good thing balancing a game is hard with over 40 characters

 

[Xenigma]

The dreamer in me wants to see a the character select screen hit an even 50, even if that means losing the random button. More realistic me is perfectly fine with 45 slots with Sheik, ZSS, Pokemon Trainer, and <insert mystery transform character here> making it 50 characters. Here's hoping!

 

[Hyper Luigi]

Okay 45 / 49 no cuts from Brawl

 

[Croph]

Well, my roster is kinda large compared to the number people are guessing. Ehh, I'll try to see if I could shrink it down...maybe. But I think it's okay for now...

- Dr. Mario in interchangeable with Bowser Jr. or Toad. I'm trying to keep the Mario and Zelda characters at the same number. As such, Ghirahim is more or less a Zelda placeholder
- Toon Link I'm keep for now until we get some more info. And besides, without Toon Link, I'll drop Toon Ganon (which will make me sad), but I'm keeping them for now...
- Characters on the right are on my "unsure" list. It's funny as Villager was on that list pre-E3. Darn you Sakurai messing with us speculators!11!!1 jk jk. But anyway, I think they could make for good DLC as well

Most people won't listen to reason when you're quoting some random stranger. Just remember the article and develop your own take on it next time you get into a rough debate.

H-hai! I'll develop my own take on articles by throwing in my own best judgements and evidence, sensei! I'll do my best to become a good, independent speculator/debater like yourself!

 

[DarrylTrainer]

My Best Case Scenario Roster w/ the bottom row being DLC consisting of cuts & easy clones and/or high requests to keep fans happy.

My Dream Roster (Never Gonna Happen!)

 

[FalKoopa]

Wait a minute.

PLATINUMGAMER64 IS NOAH !?!??!!?

This thread....moves faster than the speed of sound..

 

[AEMehr]

Pardon me asking, but is there a special program used for this style roster? I mean, I've seen it around, and it's not the SSB Roster Maker program so...what is it exactly?

It's called DIY.
I made each character slot myself for my own personal use originally.
But I uploaded a lot them onto a Photobucket account for use on the Smash bingo.