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Roy's fair landing lag.

1ampercent

Smash Journeyman
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Nov 28, 2013
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When playing Roy I feel there's more landing lag with his forward air compared with his Melee version. His other aerials are fine, and even his dair's lag is reduced, but doing a quick dtilt, side B, or JCgrab after a FF'ed Fair seems to be slower and harder now. I thought I was playing bad because I can follow up with a C-stick Smash fine, but after playing Melee's Roy I think something feels off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7hw2oFGmQY

Old video, but first combo made by SS's Roy has 2 Fair -> Dtilt follow ups which seems fast.
 

Shadic

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Fair actually went from 10/20 frames of landing lag in Melee to 9/18. (L cancelled vs. not.)
 

A Revelation

Smash Cadet
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Oct 14, 2013
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Fair actually went from 10/20 frames of landing lag in Melee to 9/18. (L cancelled vs. not.)

Why just one frame?

I'm kind of curious, what kind of thought process goes down when deciding to reduce the amount of lag on a move?
 

1ampercent

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I got the fair->dtilt combo working! The timing is different in P:M, maybe there's some more hitlag on hit with the fair, fair changes, or some landing detection differences. Whatever it is, you can't replicate that combo from melee with that speed, it definitely doesn't feel as fast, but it still combos/connects at least. I'm finding it hard to adjust I guess...
 

Blank Mauser

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What are the frames on Nair? Fair will always feel slow compared to Marth.

Does fair have more shieldstun when you hit with the hilt? I think it should since a lot of Marth's can at least make fair safe with his dash or by rolling backwards afterwards.
 

1ampercent

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I think there's either more hitlag on both non-sweetspot and sweetspot, or Roy's Fair swings his sword differently or something. I don't play Marth, but I did test him out in P:M / Melee and I had no issues doing combos from FF l-canceled fairs. Roy on the other hand seems different from his Melee version, and I don't think I have issues with any other of his aerials, just the fair. I feel like there's more dead frames or something, where as in Melee it is silky smooth in comparison.
 

Xinc

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I think there's either more hitlag on both non-sweetspot and sweetspot, or Roy's Fair swings his sword differently or something. I don't play Marth, but I did test him out in P:M / Melee and I had no issues doing combos from FF l-canceled fairs. Roy on the other hand seems different from his Melee version, and I don't think I have issues with any other of his aerials, just the fair. I feel like there's more dead frames or something, where as in Melee it is silky smooth in comparison.
Are you L-Canceling correctly? You could miss the L-cancel and still have the lag.
 

1ampercent

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Of course I can tell if I'm L-cancelling or not, there's a massive difference, and lets not forget that white flash, but that's not the problem. I'd land, L-cancel and whiff my next punishment because I'll be pressing too early (JC grab, D-tilt, Side-B, etc...), but in Melee I wouldn't be any issues. Means I have to time it slower in P:M.
 

1ampercent

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Sorry for double post but it seems that they mention changing Roy' fair in the most recent update. I will check it out soon.
 

Spiffykins

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Dec 31, 2012
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547
Well if it was matched to Melee, according to what Shadic said that means it just has more lag now. Would have been nice if that had just been stated in the changelog, but oh well.

Assuming that's the case, I sincerely hope this change isn't permanent. Marth's fair has minimal lag and is doubly safer with good spacing because of his tipper. Did I mention he can do two in a short hop?

One frame isn't the end of the world but like

it totally is tho
 

1ampercent

Smash Journeyman
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When I just started playing PM 3.0, I noticed the game overall felt different, I kept on flubbing combos on characters I usually use like C.Falcon, so I thought it was my own technical errors.

Now playing 3.01, feels so much better, including Roy! Fair ->Dtilt seems significantly easier to do now, maybe it was the SFX differences making me think that it's slower, or...

maybe there's more hitlag in PM Roy's moves than Melee version? 3.01 did remove some hitlag in various moves in C.Falcon.

I don't know what happened to Roy's Fair, but it seems much better to use. Knowing exactly what the changes are would have been nice though.
 

G13_Flux

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Well the change pretty much was adding on one frame of lag during landing. It now matches melee but it should be harder to do.

I have to agree with spiffykins though, it seems that there is a drastic difference between the speed, range, and damage that marths move operate with. Like there are almost no advantages that Roy has in the neutral game or in terms of pressure. With already high lag on stuff like fair, further increasing that just makes him all that less safe with attacks. It seems that Roy is very much characterized as someone who has a very tough time getting in on others but can do lots of damage when he's there
 

1ampercent

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I think Roy's Fair landing lag is fine in its current state, my original post was more concerned about the followups after the Fair, as I was flubbing almost all the time. Only someone from the PM team can confirm what changed. Maybe there was an error with the lag with 3.0 and they corrected it. I'm confident that 3.01 Roy is better because when I switched back to 3.0 I was missing followups with the fair again...

Marth's fair is probably better, because he should have a better aerial game than Roy, but Roy has his own strengths as well, I won't list all of them because some are directly from Melee.

Roy's Ftilt is a fantastic move now with long range, his Flare's Blade is very strong now (good finishing move in the air as well), and Roy's smashes are damn strong too. Roy has better killing moves than Marth, who mostly relies on Dairs, tippers, or gimps. Roy's jumpsquat has shortened, so Roy is not so clunky to use anymore.

People have mixed opinions on the Roy vs Marth matchup, but it's around even. I don't want to compare Roy with Marth too much, I like to see Roy as a different character, like C.Falcon vs Ganon.

My opinion is different because I'm not a Marth main or secondary...
 

G13_Flux

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I completely agree about Roy having more varied KO options and having a better combo > kill game. I wasn't saying that he's a worse character either, I was just saying that those aspects of the game are the parts where marth excels as opposed to Roy, just because certain attacks aren't as advantageous frame wise on shield, and a lot of them are slower too. It deters slightly from his neutral game in comparison, but obviously it doesn't hurt his combo and finishing game.
 

Signia

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Well the change pretty much was adding on one frame of lag during landing. It now matches melee but it should be harder to do.

I have to agree with spiffykins though, it seems that there is a drastic difference between the speed, range, and damage that marths move operate with. Like there are almost no advantages that Roy has in the neutral game or in terms of pressure. With already high lag on stuff like fair, further increasing that just makes him all that less safe with attacks. It seems that Roy is very much characterized as someone who has a very tough time getting in on others but can do lots of damage when he's there
I disagree with the notion that Roy has no advantages in the neutral game. He does almost everything better than Marth in the neutral game. Roy still has almost the same dash-dance grab game, Roy's wavedash dtilt footsies are better since Roy's dtilt launches and leads to more damage, and Roy's neutral air is much bigger more damaging, and safer due to his fall speed.

In fact, his short hop aerials are much better for the simple fact that he falls faster. Not being able to do double aerials from a short hop is not amazing as you think, that **** has always been unsafe, even Ganon can jump out of shield with an uair in between Marth's SH double fair, and it's horrible against crouch-cancelling. It's actually bad that Marth stays in the air for so long. Roy's rising aerials will be safer since he'll land earlier after the attack connects. This also means his safe aerials will be faster, since he'll get to a safe height quicker. But the biggest difference in speeds can be seen when considering SH FF late aerials. For those, the total time from leaving the ground to landing with a low aerial will of course be much faster for Roy than for Marth.

Keeping fall speeds in mind, it seems more like Roy is the faster of two: His rising Uair barrage when below someone will be faster. The time it takes to jump in front of someone and space a late aerial will be less. No delay between jumping and attacking is needed for autocancel nairs. SHFF fakeout to grab will be faster. This speed gives Roy a leg up in the neutral game, to be sure. Marth is faster at what, countering and f-smashing? Slightly faster dash?

Also, we can't forget about DED and ftilt. Both those are better for Roy and are great neutral game tools. Honestly the only disadvantage Roy has is not having an amazing tipped fair on hit. So, do less fair spam, and do more dtilt, nair, spaced ftilt, and dash-dance DED. For whiff punishing, do WD dtilit and dair instead of tipped fair.

All this applies to Melee Roy vs Marth comparisons as well, Roy always had Marth beat in neutral game in terms of speed and coverage, but the reward was awful even in Roy's sweetspots compared to Marth's sourspots.

I'm not saying Roy's better than Marth, as Roy's bad recovery and how badly he gets combo'd due to his fall speed and weight hasn't gone away, but in return, surely Roy has a better neutral game than Marth.
 
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