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Sakurai Balancing

sunshinesan

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Considering that his idea of a strong character is Samus and Ganondorf, I'd say that Sakurai is balancing the game with trades and single hit KO power in mind over combos or setups. And this makes sense if you consider that the average casual player sees big numbers as a sign of power.
I'm not too sure. Give the man some credit. He knows well enough that the way pros play is different from the common casual. He was surprised that 16 different pros didn't pick Samus, and I'd wager he really believed Samus had potential outside of how she plays in a inexperienced environment. He might prefer the party version of the game where ppl run into Ike's Fsmash for free, but he at least understand that pros won't play this way, and yet he was still surprised.
 

Shiliski

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I just want patch balancing.
This is the only practical way to have actual balance in Smash 4, or any game really. No matter what there's always going to be some oversight.

Then again, if Melee had patch balancing I'm not sure if we'd ever have wavedashing, which would make me sad because despite it being an exploit it's a cool exploit.


I'm not too sure. Give the man some credit. He knows well enough that the way pros play is different from the common casual. He was surprised that 16 different pros didn't pick Samus, and I'd wager he really believed Samus had potential outside of how she plays in a inexperienced environment. He might prefer the party version of the game where ppl run into Ike's Fsmash for free, but he at least understand that pros won't play this way, and yet he was still surprised.
I could see why he thinks this way, as Smash isn't quite as true combo friendly as other games might be. (As in, you don't have to spend a Burst icon or something to get out of a harsh combo, you just have to DI). So it makes sense that he'd assume combos to be less important. That said, people are still going to use good combos and set ups so it seems kinda silly to not consider them at all.

In the casual Melee environments that I've played in before, the best player mained Samus and consistently beat our Fox and Marth (until one day Marth got good and started catching up to Samus). I do have to emphasize, however, that this is a casual environment where All-items FFAs were the norm and wave-dashing wasn't even a thing we knew about.
 
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AquaTech

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I saw a video recently where Olimar gets smashed, and his Pikmin go flying. His blue Pikman walked past an item on the ground, picked it up, and carried it back to him.
 
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Ace76

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If Sakurai wants to balance the game around FFA with items thats ok. If Sakurai wants to balance the game with a party mentality that's ok. If Sakurai wants to make sure the playing field is even regardless of skill level that's ok too. But what im not ok is the idea that he has the competitive community in mind, or that this game is "the perfect blend of melee and brawl". I'd rather him be upfront and honest so no one is disappointed.
 

SKM_NeoN

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You can't balance this game period. All you can do is make the playing field more equal.
But... Making the playing field more equal is the definition of balance, so that's a bit of a contradiction. You can balance this game. Not perfectly of course, but making the majority of the cast viable is definitely plausible. Sakurai just sucks really hard at it.
 
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ToothiestAura

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But... Making the playing field more equal is the definition of balance, so that's a bit of a contradiction. You can balance this game. Not perfectly of course, but making the majority of the cast viable is definitely plausible. Sakurai just sucks really hard at it.
More equal does not mean equal. Just closer to it.
 

Renji64

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The PMBR knows how to balance a smash game sakurai can if he got some feedback and worked with people who play the game.
 

viewtifulduck82

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The PMBR knows how to balance a smash game sakurai can if he got some feedback and worked with people who play the game.
Melee was balanced with Sakurai alone. Brawl, was balanced with other people on a grading system. You guys need to give Sakurai more credit. This isn't specifically aimed at you, but all this "Sakurai sucks, he doesn't know how to balance anything" crap needs to stop. you guys sound like a bunch of 4 yr olds whining because you specifically didn't get what you wanted in brawl
 

Chimera

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The idea that anyone on this forum could balance this or any other game better than Sakurai is laughable to me.
 
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menotyou135

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Melee was balanced with Sakurai alone. Brawl, was balanced with other people on a grading system. You guys need to give Sakurai more credit. This isn't specifically aimed at you, but all this "Sakurai sucks, he doesn't know how to balance anything" crap needs to stop. you guys sound like a bunch of 4 yr olds whining because you specifically didn't get what you wanted in brawl
I love melee but it isn't balanced. There are 4 characters that win the vast majority of major tournaments, another 4 that can win on a semi-regular basis, a few who have dedicated mains who can place high at tournaments, but rarely win anything other than locals, and over half are almost useless outside of rare occurrences of a player who is a great dedicated main or low tier tournaments.

You can't tell me with a straight face that kirby and fox are in balance.

Sure it is possible to win with any character, but it is not an equal fight by any means. From a game design perspective, the balance is not well crafted.

If you mean that among the top tier, melee is balanced, then sure. It is fairly balanced for the top 8-10 characters. All other characters are just outmatched and even those that are outside the top 4 have a much harder time winning events than the top 4.

That being said, I agree that the "sakurai sucks" sentiment is BS. I don't think he is great at balance, but there are far worse people out there. Granted, the meta knight oversight was really bad. All I am saying is that while he shouldn't be bashed, you can't say that he is good at balance, because the melee example is completely invalid.
 
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Spazzy_D

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This should be the title of an E-Shop game. Probably using the balance board.
 

viewtifulduck82

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I love melee but it isn't balanced. There are 4 characters that win the vast majority of major tournaments, another 4 that can win on a semi-regular basis, a few who have dedicated mains who can place high at tournaments, but rarely win anything other than locals, and over half are almost useless outside of rare occurrences of a player who is a great dedicated main or low tier tournaments.

You can't tell me with a straight face that kirby and fox are in balance.

Sure it is possible to win with any character, but it is not an equal fight by any means. From a game design perspective, the balance is not well crafted.

If you mean that among the top tier, melee is balanced, then sure. It is fairly balanced for the top 8-10 characters. All other characters are just outmatched and even those that are outside the top 4 have a much harder time winning events than the top 4.

That being said, I agree that the "sakurai sucks" sentiment is BS. I don't think he is great at balance, but there are far worse people out there. Granted, the meta knight oversight was really bad. All I am saying is that while he shouldn't be bashed, you can't say that he is good at balance, because the melee example is completely invalid.
I wasn't saying melee was balanced. If you look at my earlier comments, I even said it wasn't. The point is that you almost never see anyone point it out here. It's only ever brawl's flaws that are put on full display around here it seems.
 

menotyou135

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I wasn't saying melee was balanced. If you look at my earlier comments, I even said it wasn't. The point is that you almost never see anyone point it out here. It's only ever brawl's flaws that are put on full display around here it seems.
Misunderstanding. My apologies. I read the first sentence incorrectly.

But yeah, there is definitely a divide. I think it is a combination of the dissatisfaction with brawl in general, mixed with the fact that meta knight was quite overpowered that causes brawl to get so much more hate than melee did.
 
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Ryuutakeshi

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Guys, Sakurai is never going to acknowledge Project M and will never work with creators on smash. Honestly, I think they would have more than a few creative differences.
 

courte

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This right here. This is why the game will never be balanced. The competitive scene doesn't follow the rules, the make up their
there own. Half the "advanced" techniques are just exploits, sometimes even design errors. Also, Sakurai balances the game based on 4FFA items? Good, that's the way the game is intended to be played.

The competetive scene will ALWAYS be in the minority, and it's for the good of the wider audience that Sakurai balance as such. Also, Sakurai has a much bigger team working on it now (he literally did it himself in everyone's precious Melee), so it's fairly preemptive to say it won't work out.
As I recall people have the freedom to play however they want. There are many Variable play modes in many fighting games, people simply tend to gravitate towards one for a fair standard. I think it's fair to say that most of that competitive crowd will be playng their coy and caring more about it that many of the other average buyers. it the landscape looks anything like these boards, it seems things like fire emblem, tales and xenoblade would quickly divert attention making smash into a once in a while Games. Ill admit ive frequently wondered If people aren't trying to ever get remotely better at fighters, why keep playing? I know to have fun with friends, but some part is to see who'll win. if I always come in 4th, i'd try to get better. And fpr the love of thw anatomy of a fight.

So I an see why some people have such a vitriolic attitudes towards people who actually try, but for the most part, they're trying to get better all of the time? And they're doing so rather far away from you. When someone does 't like the way you play smash be it Casual or hardcore, they tend to drift away and find people with similar attitudes. No one looks at anything relative to street fighter and Says boo all of you. Just stand still and get hit by my blatant attack because it'll look cool

The real kicker? This entire landscape would have been radically different if they went with dragon keg. I know, they didn't . I'm living through the resulting hell, this schism. But I imagine that if we had that instead, even with 4man ffa even with items, the attitude would toward the game would change. people would look at subsequent additional characters as fighters first, and as "damnit where is blaziken" second. but we didn't get that game.

Leave sakurai out of it all. He is not a god he is not an idiot. he is a man, whom with the help of many other men made one of the greatest games ever. chances are the first time you played sma**** was a free for all, it was with items, it wasn't on a tourney legal stage, and you had fun. it's his job to keep bringing people, newcomews (kids) that fun. TBH it's OUR job at this point, the leagues of people raised on Nintendo to take that and run. People who loved street fighter and marvel and darkstalkers, made guilty gear and people who loved GG made Skullgirls. people who loved Mario made many of the amazing platformers we've played since. so at this point people who love smash as a fighter need to break off, shed the restrictions existing characters carry and create something of our own. and the others who are complacent to sit back and play party games will have their fun. we can finally stop stepping on each others toes after almost a decade of blisters.
 
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Renji64

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Melee was balanced with Sakurai alone. Brawl, was balanced with other people on a grading system. You guys need to give Sakurai more credit. This isn't specifically aimed at you, but all this "Sakurai sucks, he doesn't know how to balance anything" crap needs to stop. you guys sound like a bunch of 4 yr olds whining because you specifically didn't get what you wanted in brawl
I'm not a sakurai hater i'll give him credit where it is due when it comes to balancing his knowledge is limited. Just because you can design a great game doesn't mean much if you don't listen to the actual people who play it.
 

LeeYawshee

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I'm not a sakurai hater i'll give him credit where it is due when it comes to balancing his knowledge is limited. Just because you can design a great game doesn't mean much if you don't listen to the actual people who play it.
It doesn't matter if Sakurai knows how to balance or not. There is a balancing team of 12(or so) people working on balancing this game. So all of you people calling him out need to read a bit more or listen a bit better. Sakurai also stated that some characters are simply better in free for alls and others are better in 1v1s. Bowser is a fantastic example of this as he was a monster in free for alls but only decent in 1v1s. Can a game where you can fight freely be balanced? No. And yet Sakurai is trying his hardest to do it and all you people do is ****ing complain.
And one other thing, in the end of the invitational Sakurai said that he would keep an eye on the competitive scene. If you people had watched the whole thing you could see that Sakurai does indeed CARE about the COMPETITIVE smash scene.
 

kazrisk

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It doesn't matter if Sakurai knows how to balance or not. There is a balancing team of 12(or so) people working on balancing this game. So all of you people calling him out need to read a bit more or listen a bit better. Sakurai also stated that some characters are simply better in free for alls and others are better in 1v1s. Bowser is a fantastic example of this as he was a monster in free for alls but only decent in 1v1s. Can a game where you can fight freely be balanced? No. And yet Sakurai is trying his hardest to do it and all you people do is ****ing complain.
And one other thing, in the end of the invitational Sakurai said that he would keep an eye on the competitive scene. If you people had watched the whole thing you could see that Sakurai does indeed CARE about the COMPETITIVE smash scene.
This.

For all of you that insist that Sakurai wants nothing to do with the competitive scene clearly haven't been paying attention to what he has been doing recently. Clearly he's acknowledging it and making an effort to make Smash 4 competitive while also including the casuals who joined with Brawl and the Wii era. For Glory mode, what he said at the roundtable, the invitational, and the change in approach to balancing with a different sized team make me have no idea where some of these thoughts on Sakurai are coming from.
 

SKM_NeoN

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What Sakurai says and what Sakurai does are two different things. If he actually listened to what his fans have to say we wouldn't be getting Brawl 2.0
 

Shiliski

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The idea that anyone on this forum could balance this or any other game better than Sakurai is laughable to me.
I think some pro players could provide useful input, but I don't think the common player is going to do a very good job.

I mean, you wouldn't want the game to be balanced by someone who thinks that some low tier character like Sonic is "too cheap", or that C. Falcon's fspecial and Pit's fspecial are OP, would you? On the other hand, the average player could tell that some of Mewtwo's specials could've used a buff, and that Meta Knight was a bit much.
 

Senario

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I love melee but it isn't balanced. There are 4 characters that win the vast majority of major tournaments, another 4 that can win on a semi-regular basis, a few who have dedicated mains who can place high at tournaments, but rarely win anything other than locals, and over half are almost useless outside of rare occurrences of a player who is a great dedicated main or low tier tournaments.

You can't tell me with a straight face that kirby and fox are in balance.

Sure it is possible to win with any character, but it is not an equal fight by any means. From a game design perspective, the balance is not well crafted.

If you mean that among the top tier, melee is balanced, then sure. It is fairly balanced for the top 8-10 characters. All other characters are just outmatched and even those that are outside the top 4 have a much harder time winning events than the top 4.

That being said, I agree that the "sakurai sucks" sentiment is BS. I don't think he is great at balance, but there are far worse people out there. Granted, the meta knight oversight was really bad. All I am saying is that while he shouldn't be bashed, you can't say that he is good at balance, because the melee example is completely invalid.
The amount of viable characters is about the same as in any other 1v1 fighter like blazblue. So no big deal, it is balanced.
 

Hydde

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Melee bañance was shid. the same with brawls. But at least melee had a fun gameplay. Brawl didnt.

also this :

Honestly?

I like the approach where everyone is overpowered. I think every character should have a quality that is super desirable, and too-good-to-be-true.

Marth in Melee is a good example.
Character has a long sword. The long sword deals immense damage at maximum range. The character also has very fast, graceful swordplay. If that is not enough, he also had grab options to control enemies if they were too close to fully capitalize on his optimal distance.

Captain Falcon as well, Melee specifically
Very fast, very strong character. Many of his attacks are actually slow, but he can use his immense speed to instigate fear and seize openings. Like Marth, has some fast options to help setup for his slower, stronger attacks.

All characters should have a defining best-case-scenario, and tools to enable it. You should be able to live the fantasy at even the highest levels of skill. At the very least, all characters should have accessible and realistic kill moves. Pit's new Upperdash Arm and Samus's retooled Screw Attack are fine examples. Pit in particular because he has always been good at wearing the enemy down, and Project M aside, just had limited kill options in Brawl.

SSB64 is my favourite entry in the series. Sure we have a clear tier list, but every character has 0%->death combos, so you always have reasons to be afraid. Of course someone like Pikachu or Fox have a way easier time setting it up than Ness, but I would still say this is a better state than some of the characters in Melee or Brawl. Really, only Samus feels particularly underwhelming in that game... and this is coming from a Link main.
This is the true approach sakurai needs to have. Forget about melee or brawl or 64.... what he needs to do is to make EVERY character have options to dominate and kill in their own funny way.

The game will always have characters that are stronger than others.... but if at the very least every single character is able to pull KOs constantly in any scenerio, things would be ok IMO.

If we cant get a balanved roster...at least make every single char be imba in their own way. Every have fun, everyone wins.
 

Saikyoshi

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He definitely has a horrible track record and philosophy, but he's slowly learning. S l o w l y.

Little Mac and Bowser are evidence of this.
 
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kazrisk

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I think he learned very fast from what I've seen with Smash 4. Each time I see a character in Smash 4 I think "ooo I want to play as them because they can do this," but then someone else comes along and demolishes them with a move and I think "ooo I want to play as them because they can do that," but then someone else came along and demolished them... It'll come down to who knows their character, who knows the potential of other characters, and who knows when to use what they know and is then capable of doing that.

Also, with the Brawl 2.0 comments, I quote this:
Do you know how wrong you are?
 

Saikyoshi

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I think he learned very fast from what I've seen with Smash 4. Each time I see a character in Smash 4 I think "ooo I want to play as them because they can do this," but then someone else comes along and demolishes them with a move and I think "ooo I want to play as them because they can do that," but then someone else came along and demolished them... It'll come down to who knows their character, who knows the potential of other characters, and who knows when to use what they know and is then capable of doing that.
I don't know, he's still screwing up noticeably in some places. I was told that Zelda, already near rock-bottom of the tier list, was nerfed.
 

Hydde

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I think he learned very fast from what I've seen with Smash 4. Each time I see a character in Smash 4 I think "ooo I want to play as them because they can do this," but then someone else comes along and demolishes them with a move and I think "ooo I want to play as them because they can do that," but then someone else came along and demolished them... It'll come down to who knows their character, who knows the potential of other characters, and who knows when to use what they know and is then capable of doing that.
I dont want to sound harsh, but i think the gameplay is nowhere near as exciting as you are making it to be, at least for now.

Heck, you make it even sound like you have a year playing the game
 

kazrisk

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I dont want to sound harsh, but i think the gameplay is nowhere near as exciting as you are making it to be, at least for now.

Heck, you make it even sound like you have a year playing the game
That's just from watching the footage on Clash Tournaments, where there were several moments where I got excited. I just love Smash and get easily excited by it.
 

SKM_NeoN

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I mean, there is no hitstun at all right. I didnt see anyone get any combos in at all during E3, Smashfest, or the invitational.

Do you know how wrong you are?
By Brawl 2.0 I didn't mean an exact clone to Brawl, only an enhanced version of said game. It's not as different as you apparently like to pretend it is.
 

kazrisk

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By Brawl 2.0 I didn't mean an exact clone to Brawl, only an enhanced version of said game. It's not as different as you apparently like to pretend it is.
Makes sense since they are both Super Smash Bros., but it is shaping out to be quite different from any previous Smash and unique as it's own entry in the franchise, thus the title "Brawl 2.0" is not fitting.
 

Senario

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Makes sense since they are both Super Smash Bros., but it is shaping out to be quite different from any previous Smash and unique as it's own entry in the franchise, thus the title "Brawl 2.0" is not fitting.
Well not really, the title is meant as an indicator for where the game places on a deeper gameplay level. And so far we have only been shown that it is more of what brawl is and not really a middle point of the two games.
 

LeeYawshee

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What I want to know is who the hell said that Zelda got nerfed? She felt just fine to me and her side B was buffed significantly along with giving her a new move for more versatility.
 

RascalTheCharizard

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What I want to know is who the hell said that Zelda got nerfed? She felt just fine to me and her side B was buffed significantly along with giving her a new move for more versatility.
I remember people saying that her Utilt (which was a good surprise KOer) is much weaker in Smash 4, her Din's Fire, whilst stronger in the sweetspot, does next to nothing with the outer parts of the attack and her Lightning Kicks are now weaker and/or have poorer range (can't quite remember what I read perfectly). Also Zelda's Transform was the best Down Special in the game lol. Sounds like she's nerfed to me.

So who said? ZeRo and many people on the Zelda boards who played the game at Best Buy.
 
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Shiliski

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It's not too late to balance the game. I really hope Zelda doesn't end up getting the short end of the stick.
 

SKM_NeoN

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What I want to know is who the hell said that Zelda got nerfed? She felt just fine to me and her side B was buffed significantly along with giving her a new move for more versatility.
Maybe, but her down B got a huge nerf.
 

KatKit

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I don't know, he's still screwing up noticeably in some places. I was told that Zelda, already near rock-bottom of the tier list, was nerfed.
Her metagame is different, for sure. And the game isn't finished. However, she's gotten some buffs that a lot of people overlook. For example, Farore's Wind. A lot of untapped potiential with most characters, though. And we aren't taking customizable special moves into consideration.

Anyways, thus far, the game seems more balanced overall.

They're focusing more on balance., and patches are finally possible. This will be so legit. No complaints from me.
 
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Saikyoshi

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Her metagame is different, for sure. And the game isn't finished. However, she's gotten some buffs that a lot of people overlook. For example, Farore's Wind.
Farore's wind got buffed? Oh good. Teleport-gaming is part of the reason I main Mewtwo in all appearances and Goku in Smash Flash 2. This could easily mean I can comfortably add Zelda to my repertoire for once.
 

D-idara

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But... Making the playing field more equal is the definition of balance, so that's a bit of a contradiction. You can balance this game. Not perfectly of course, but making the majority of the cast viable is definitely plausible. Sakurai just sucks really hard at it.
Because the impressions from the E3 Demo totally weren't that nearly all characters are good except Zelda?
 
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