Samus QOTD

[Afro Smash]

Just thought I'd make this thread for daily discussions and random questions.

My question is, would you be willing to sacrifice our combo throw for a kill throw?

http://strawpoll.me/5740726

And what grab buff do you think would benefit Samus the most?

http://strawpoll.me/5740765

You can post reasons below, and ofc ask your own questions

 

[KayJay]

- Combo Throw
- Better/Reliable Combos (U-Air guaranteed)

 

[Xygonn]

I would gladly make dthrow never true combo to make uthrow a kill throw. Right now at high percents landing a grab gets us nothing aside from a little breathing room.

 

[Davregis]

Samus gets big damage off combos but I feel Dthrow is too easy to DI and doesn't combo long enough

 

[DungeonMaster]

Absolutely startup and endlag. I get tons of damage off of grabs, yes there's a skill to the grab combo but it can be mastered. My conversion ratio is very high, I rarely if ever miss the maximal combo possible, even vs. consummate air-dodgers and hard DI out. Why it has to be so stupidly difficult is baffling, but you can get there. At higher percents the pummel to up-throw is actually good damage.
If we were to lose the combo throw at very low percents we would have only dash attack that would give us that nice 40. Nair and up-tilt are indeed nice but they're 20 and 27 damage, not quite jab-is-now-safe range.
The problem with just making this move a kill throw is multifold. First we have no throw setups, we're not Ness. Second it can't be used in clutch situations, right now the only reason to grab at high percents is when it's guaranteed safe (opponent landing, etc..).

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

Less cooldown and I'm a happy camper. If we had the same cooldown as lucas then I wouldn't be bitter about Samus's grab.

 

[Xygonn]

It's impossible that a reliable combo isn't a kill comb for us because of upb. Anything you can hit with uair you can hit with upb.

 

[zblaqk]

To be honest I would prefer more reliable follow ups with her throws as opposed to a kill throw. Actual set ups are more important I feel in high level play, look at sheik, fox, and ZSS- excellent clutch throw setups

 

[zblaqk]

For example, imagine a guaranteed down throw to dair combo at mid percentages? that'd be amazing

 

[zblaqk]

Just thought I'd make this thread for daily discussions and random questions.

My question is, would you be willing to sacrifice our combo throw for a kill throw?

http://strawpoll.me/5740726

And what grab buff do you think would benefit Samus the most?

http://strawpoll.me/5740765

You can post reasons below, and ofc ask your own questions

Excellent idea btw making this thread Afro

 

[JAZZ_]

Combo over kill

And some speed buff to it. Since we cant kill throw and our kill combo off throw only works on very few stages there is no reason for it to be SO impossible to get off. We could never shield grab, and now with the shield stun we really cant, and if you throw out grab we can get punished with charged smash attacks if we whiff, which it whiffs all the time. Reduce the Lag, on both ends, and then it wouldnt be so broken.
As is we have a grab thats Extremely high risk, and just a meh reward. it doesnt balance out like the rest of the casts grab.

 

[Hapajin]

-combo throw. I'm okay not having a kill throw, but a real combo throw from our laggy grab more rewarding in more scenarios. Speaking of laggy grabs...
-Less start-up and end-lag. I hate how much of a yolo move our grab is compared to others

 

[Boney]

Voted for a kill throw in both but obviously it depends how good the combo throw and how good the kill throw.

A combo throw that doesn't kill doesn't sound feasible with charge shot , back air and up b. CS might be too slow but the others could kill at relatively low % . I assume those wouldn't be possible so it's only add combos up to 60% or so. Although it could lead to 50/50's

An up throw with Mewtwo knock back (with rage omg) or a back throw with ness knock would make it a huge high risk high reward like ZSS's and help with the kill power for Samus.

 

[Hark17ball]

I am mixed. I like her Dthrow being a combo but I think it's dumb if the opponent and myself are both 40% they can DI away easily.

I'd like a middle ground... Where our Dthrow lasts a little bit longer and make UThrow kill around 140%

Nothing crazy just a good middle ground. But that may be due to my personal play style haha

Edit- I voted Combo and Start/End lag reduction

 

[Varia31]

A bit of a mixed bag for me, but I'm leaning towards kill throw. I think her combo ability off a d-throw is okay enough right now, mostly because I am able to work with it decently overall, and plus, I want to feel like I'm harnessing Samus' true strength by hurling someone off screen. lol I would think that f-throw or u-throw would work best. To me it would make her current start/end lag feel more worthwhile.

 

[DanishButrCookies]

I love her combo throw.
If she had less end lag and startup, she would be punished less and we could potentially have a kill combo throw. Imagine a throw into Up-B? I could see it.

 

[Zylach]

Having a combo throw is often more important than having a kill throw, especially because Samus' gets her more than 30% which is a lot for a combo throw in this game. Look at characters that don't have kill throws like Sheik and ZSS. They have their combo throws that act as kill setups for them rather than just killing outright. Combo throws, in this fashion, beat out plain old kill throws any day because they're multi-useful. If Samus' actually confirmed at percents higher than 50%, it'd be a downright powerful throw.

I think the question of whether or not lag reductions on her grab should or should not be number one priority, I think it's clear that lag reductions are, in fact, number one priority. Having a safe grab is what makes a lot of good characters good. Making Samus' safer only makes her better. Going for grabs more often, because she won't be getting punished for literally every single one with partially charged smashes, allows her better opportunities to rack up damage, getting characters to kill percents earlier, and shifting her focus to killing before the opponent which works out well in her favor as opposed to the other way around since she doesn't have the kill options of a lot of other characters. Again, a combo throw that actually worked better as a kill setup would aid this as well. Not a kill confirm grab like pre-patch Diddy or Luigi, more like Sheik and ZSS.

 

[zblaqk]

Having a combo throw is often more important than having a kill throw, especially because Samus' gets her more than 30% which is a lot for a combo throw in this game. Look at characters that don't have kill throws like Sheik and ZSS. They have their combo throws that act as kill setups for them rather than just killing outright. Combo throws, in this fashion, beat out plain old kill throws any day because they're multi-useful. If Samus' actually confirmed at percents higher than 50%, it'd be a downright powerful throw.

I think the question of whether or not lag reductions on her grab should or should not be number one priority, I think it's clear that lag reductions are, in fact, number one priority. Having a safe grab is what makes a lot of good characters good. Making Samus' safer only makes her better. Going for grabs more often, because she won't be getting punished for literally every single one with partially charged smashes, allows her better opportunities to rack up damage, getting characters to kill percents earlier, and shifting her focus to killing before the opponent which works out well in her favor as opposed to the other way around since she doesn't have the kill options of a lot of other characters. Again, a combo throw that actually worked better as a kill setup would aid this as well. Not a kill confirm grab like pre-patch Diddy or Luigi, more like Sheik and ZSS.

That's exactly right, having much more reliable kill set-ups and less lag to allow better shield grabbing is paramount in this case. Kill set-ups off of grabs are extremely valuable and could actually help samus a lot in her confirms.

 

[zblaqk]

Okay, so my question of the day:

"Would you rather have a DAir that matches the hitbox animation and is faster, or a renewed F-tilt (No sour spot and no messed up hurt box)?"


http://strawpoll.me/5751315


Discuss.

 

[Hark17ball]

FTilt for me.

 

[Afro Smash]

F Tilt that's safe pn hit and free tech chases hnnnnnnnnnnng

 

[DungeonMaster]

Dair, oh my god d-air. Being able to even *threaten* trades vs. other people's up-airs would make this character jump a tier.

 

[DanishButrCookies]

The F-tilt. Dear god that would be amazing.

 

[Hapajin]

Aw man, a faster d-air would be fantastic. I hope d-air is patched to match it's animation, but making it faster is icing on the cake.

On the other hand, I confess I didn't use f-tilt to it's full potential when it was safe on shield...

 

[zblaqk]

I myself would prefer the Ftilt but the voting is super close lol. Both have tremendous merit, Ftilt for more grounded tech chases and punishes, and safer defensive option, or a much more threatening aerial presence that would also help Samus land much easier.

 

[Zylach]

This one is tricky because it's a question of two different tools. One being a safer poke tool in neutral and possible safe kill setup by starting a tech chase. The other is a safe landing tool which Samus currently lacks (the best she has is uair whose hitbox doesn't really allow it to be a safe landing tool since it's aimed so high). Renewing ftilt would be a nice tool to have once again but Samus' neutral game wouldn't be incredibly safer than it is right now I think.

It'd be safer since we'd have a longer range tool that's safe on shield, but, at the same time, we currently have a lot of tools for keeping people out of our space: zair, jab, screw attack, etc whereas we don't really have good landing options/options for challenging anti-airs or just plain high attacks. I'm inclined to vote for dair especially if the "faster" adjective also applies to it autocancelling sooner after the hitbox comes out.

 

[DanishButrCookies]

This one is tricky because it's a question of two different tools. One being a safer poke tool in neutral and possible safe kill setup by starting a tech chase. The other is a safe landing tool which Samus currently lacks (the best she has is uair whose hitbox doesn't really allow it to be a safe landing tool since it's aimed so high). Renewing ftilt would be a nice tool to have once again but Samus' neutral game wouldn't be incredibly safer than it is right now I think. Like, it'd be safer since we'd have a longer range tool that's safe on shield, but, at the same time, we currently have a lot of tools for keeping people out of our space: zair, jab, screw attack, etc whereas we don't really have good landing options/options for challenging anti-airs or just plain high attacks. I'm inclined to vote for dair especially if the "faster" adjective also applies to it autocancelling sooner after the hitbox comes out.

Ugh the color of your font. Why dark purple?
Also, I agree. Dair auto cancelled sooner would be pretty hot.

 

[Boney]

Old ftilt no question about it. It was a lot more reliable in the neutral, if it hit, you could usually follow it up with another one at early %, and made samus capable of controlling her space a lot better. Not to mention the tech chases was one of the better hit confirms in the game which is not only one of the most important things a character can have, samus doesn't have reliable kill options other than back air and charge shot reads.

Fixed dair would be great, pressuring shields safer, would allow for an easier chance to start combos and help her landing (it still would be awfully hard to trade) ftilt takes it easily, which is worse because we already had that to begin with 6 months ago

 

[Xygonn]

Dair, oh my god d-air. Being able to even *threaten* trades vs. other people's up-airs would make this character jump a tier.

I trade dairs or beat uairs all the time. Not against big disjoint uairs, but your standard ass uair like spacies, cpt falcon, sheik, etc. I don't know what this constant complaing is about dair. I've even traded with PKT2. It's all about timing.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Xygonn I recorded a match recently, vs. a sheik. My d-air specifically went through her up-air hurtbox 5 times in one match. It's not a question of timing, there's a giant, massive blindspot on the sides of the spike box. Non-disjointed up-airs can sneak in at an angle which does not represent the arc. It's ludicrously frustrating. I'm ok with the move being 17 frames - although if it were even just a bit less at 15 the combo potential would shoot through the roof.

 

[Xygonn]

Xygonn I recorded a match recently, vs. a sheik. My d-air specifically went through her up-air hurtbox 5 times in one match. It's not a question of timing, there's a giant, massive blindspot on the sides of the spike box. Non-disjointed up-airs can sneak in at an angle which does not represent the arc. It's ludicrously frustrating. I'm ok with the move being 17 frames - although if it were even just a bit less at 15 the combo potential would shoot through the roof.

I'm not gonna disagree the WHOOSH animation isn't lined up with the hitboxes. That's obvious. The late hitbox is actually extended a bit to the sides beyond the WHOOSH. The spike hitbox straight below does line up pretty well with the WHOOSH.

Basically the hitboxes are like this:

With the WHOOSH in black and the hitboxes in red. (Early on the right late on the left)

 

[JAZZ_]

dair
thats my vote

 

[Zylach]

Ugh the color of your font. Why dark purple?
Also, I agree. Dair auto cancelled sooner would be pretty hot.

Sorry, I use Smashboards sugilite so it matches lol

 

[zblaqk]

I'm not gonna disagree the WHOOSH animation isn't lined up with the hitboxes. That's obvious. The late hitbox is actually extended a bit to the sides beyond the WHOOSH. The spike hitbox straight below does line up pretty well with the WHOOSH.

Basically the hitboxes are like this:

With the WHOOSH in black and the hitboxes in red. (Early on the right late on the left)

Dats the best illustration of my life.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Ignore - misunderstood your diagram.

 

[Hark17ball]

To revive the thread... Which would you rather have untechable? Utilt or Dair?

 

[Zylach]

Probably utilt unless untechable dair also means they can't tech walls (No meteor smash nullification on Duck Hunt stage). No tech on utilt means all those "guaranteed" followups are actually guaranteed because of the lack of techs plus it can reliably kill even if the opponent is on the ground.

 

[Hark17ball]

Probably utilt unless untechable dair also means they can't tech walls (No meteor smash nullification on Duck Hunt stage). No tech on utilt means all those "guaranteed" followups are actually guaranteed because of the lack of techs plus it can reliably kill even if the opponent is on the ground.

I use Utilt far more than Dair, so that one is my choice.

 

[DungeonMaster]

If the base hitstun engine doesn't change then definitely up-tilt. Up-tilt is just generally more useful than d-air vs ground, particularly right now with d-air blindspots.
As it stands at present the hitstun out of d-air at kill percents is almost nil. If your opponent is at all good/reflexive air-dodger (or just any idiot with a rapid fire controller) you definitely want to go for up-air or up-B reflexively, because the window is all but non-existent.
I'm personally praying for a hitstun engine change in the coming patch(es). The big hits like up-tilt and d-air should really only offer one instance for you to get out - the tech. Right now they just don't make sense, it's layering safety upon safety and giving no reward to the Samus player who already needs to accurately guess the follow-up.
Step 1 guess if tech and d-tilt.
Step 2 guess if airdodge
Step 3 try to read air-dodge
It's stupid. These aren't 6 frame grabs and yet those are given massive reward.

 

[Hark17ball]

If the base hitstun engine doesn't change then definitely up-tilt. Up-tilt is just generally more useful than d-air vs ground, particularly right now with d-air blindspots.
As it stands at present the hitstun out of d-air at kill percents is almost nil. If your opponent is at all good/reflexive air-dodger (or just any idiot with a rapid fire controller) you definitely want to go for up-air or up-B reflexively, because the window is all but non-existent.
I'm personally praying for a hitstun engine change in the coming patch(es). The big hits like up-tilt and d-air should really only offer one instance for you to get out - the tech. Right now they just don't make sense, it's layering safety upon safety and giving no reward to the Samus player who already needs to accurately guess the follow-up.
Step 1 guess if tech and d-tilt.
Step 2 guess if airdodge
Step 3 try to read air-dodge
It's stupid. These aren't 6 frame grabs and yet those are given massive reward.

I always enjoy your thought process on things DungeonMaster .