Samus Slayer or Ike Eater? Xyro vs San: re-match! 18 of 18 matches are up!!!!!!!!!!

[bladeboys]

Good Job to you guys, I can't wait to see the matches !

 

[Dark 3nergy]

I did some teams matches with San...needless to say, he did almost everything, LOL.

San too good. Must play more before you leave Houston!

i learned how to jump uair from dis guy when on the ledge

ive killed so many people trying to edgeguard me like dis LOL

 

[AN(M)ist]

Xyro,,

are the vids uploaded yet? I need pro samus MU tips so tht I could have a rematch with a samus main in my region (dunno if you know him; the name is Lance; there is one other one too but dunno his SWF tagname).

 

[Xyro77]

Xyro,,

are the vids uploaded yet? I need pro samus MU tips so tht I could have a rematch with a samus main in my region (dunno if you know him; the name is Lance; there is one other one too but dunno his SWF tagname).

They are not up yet cause i have college/work to do today. I guarantee i will get them up soon.

 

[Zatchiel]

Let's get those vids up, Xyro *Fistpump*

 

[RT]

I mean, I could upload them...but I don't know which ones Xyro wants up.

 

[Xyro77]

I mean, I could upload them...but I don't know which ones Xyro wants up.

dont upload any. i recorded them for ME to put up

 

[RT]

Yes ma'am!

 

[Darkshadow7827]

I'm hyped just for the replay, haha.

 

[da K.I.D.]

10 bucks says xyro only uploads the ones where he wins.

 

[theeboredone]

He already said San won like 14-5. He'll probably upload it to be like where San wins 2/3 or 3/5 for epicness.

 

[KillerJawz]

Spoiler

*waits for Xyro to change the MU to 50-50*

Good stuff San.

 

[Xyro77]

Spoiler

*waits for Xyro to change the MU to 50-50*

Good stuff San.

KJ,

Samus still beats ike( ive ate all ikes iver ever faced save one). I lost to SAN(the player) and not his character. San 6-0ed jerm(top 3 TL) and 8-0ed Ozz(top 4 Falco) and 2-1 gnes(top 2 diddy) so are they now 50-50 MUs? No. Now if multiple ikes started doing this type of thing then hell yea i would reconsider the MU.

10 bucks says xyro only uploads the ones where he wins.

He already said San won like 14-5. He'll probably upload it to be like where San wins 2/3 or 3/5 for epicness.

Incorrect. ALL vids will be uploaded( i have no issue admitting i lost). I said it was 14-5 only cause i stop counting. it may be more or it may be a LITTLE less. Either way i KNOW i won ONLY 5.

 

[Ussi]

ooomg where is the 3rd match of San vs gnes D:?

 

[AN(M)ist]

hmmm, it's been over a week. San should prolly remind him that there was a liitle something to upload here.

 

[z00ted]

10 bucks says xyro only uploads the ones where he wins.

Your an idiot.

And Xyro will get the vids up guys, be patient.
He's a busy guy.

 

[Ussi]

1) Open Youtube page
2) Select Upload
3) Select video file
4) repeat step 2 and 3 until you feel the list is long enough
5) live your life and check later when its done

 

[Iofsauron]

Give it a bit geeeezzz

 

[KillerJawz]

KJ,

Samus still beats ike( ive ate all ikes iver ever faced save one). I lost to SAN(the player) and not his character. San 6-0ed jerm(top 3 TL) and 8-0ed Ozz(top 4 Falco) and 2-1 gnes(top 2 diddy) so are they now 50-50 MUs? No. Now if multiple ikes started doing this type of thing then hell yea i would reconsider the MU.

I was making a joke at the fact that you changed your MU ratio to 60-40 on the Samus boards after losing to the Ike the first time, from 65-35.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Its not really possible for a player to be better then their character.

saying that your character still beats a character in a matchup you claim to know very well when you claim to be the best of your character, thats like saying that I can fasten the steel gurters that make up the foundation of a skyscraper... with a screwdriver.

It doesnt matter how good or smart the player is, you cant exceed the abilities of the character (or tool) that you choose. if you are, than that just mean the characters capabilities are more than what you previously believed.

 

[Sharky]

yeah, at the very height of both characters' metagames right now, the best Ike beats the best Samus.

 

[Nysyarc]

Do you guys realize just how much better San is than like, every other Ike main? Ike is a decent character, he's not terrible, but he's not really good either. San is just a beast. Ike's MU with Samus is still in Samus' favor by a fair margin.

By your arguments you seem to be trying to imply that San and Xyro are robots who exceed human capabilities but are bound by the maximum potential of their characters, which is pretty clearly not the case. Character MUs do matter, but player skill matters a lot more. A player like Ray Kalm could obliterate a scrubby MK using Ganon. Does that mean Ganon is better than MK or that Ganon has a favorable MU with MK?

I'm not trying to imply that Xyro is a scrub, lol. I'm just saying that, as good a player as he is, San is simply the better player, so he can overcome the MU deficit and win.

 

[Sharky]

If ray kalm were to be able to beat M2k consistently, then my logic would say that ganon beats MK. Xyro is the best samus, San is the best Ike. Each character's metagame is limited by the skill of its best players. You do the math.

 

[IsmaR]

You sir, are mad.

 

[Nysyarc]

If ray kalm were to be able to beat M2k consistently, then my logic would say that ganon beats MK. Xyro is the best samus, San is the best Ike. Each character's metagame is limited by the skill of its best players. You do the math.

That logic makes no sense at all though. If M2K mained Ganon and the only Meta Knight main was some newb, then would Ganon be better than MK because the best player who mains him is better than the best player who mains MK? Are you saying all the top players of every character play with the exact same level of skill?

Tier lists aren't decided by how well the top players of each character do against each other, that's just ridiculous. They're decided by the general advantages that every character has in a competitive setting. If the immensely variable nature of human skill and mind games was brought into tier list decisions they would take forever to order and way more work would be involved.

 

[YagamiLight]

That logic makes no sense at all though. If M2K mained Ganon and the only Meta Knight main was some newb, then would Ganon be better than MK because the best player who mains him is better than the best player who mains MK? Are you saying all the top players of every character play with the exact same level of skill?

Let's be a bit more serious here, shall we? This example sounds good and all, but it's a definite fact that all the top players of EVERY character in the game are not newbs. They are, quite simply, amazing players.

They don't play with the exact same skill level, but allow me to say that if for the purposes of the argument their skill level is "close enough." The main thing deciding victories at the top level of play are the characters themselves. If Samus had, as previously stated, a significant advantage over Ike then whenever the top Ike (San) and the top Samus (Xyro) play the outcome should really not look like the ratio is in Ike's favor. But that's exactly what's happening, isn't it?

At some level, we (as a community) should be willing to say that our theories were wrong in the face of evidence. We should be willing to say "hey, this doesn't match what we had predicted" and, instead of looking confused, should be looking to explain WHY something happened. And, at the top level of play for both characters, "San is a boss" doesn't really cover it as well as it should.

 

[Xyro77]

San is simply the better player, so he can overcome the MU deficit and win.

but at the same time, maybe he is the "exception to the rule" aka the "m2k"


i say this because i have NEVER seen an ike do what it did to ozz(8-0 a falco) and jerm(6-0 a toonlink) and razer(3-0 a snake) and gnes(2-1 a diddy). i believe san is the m2k of ike while the rest of the ikes can only reach the TYRANT or DOJO of ike.

 

[theeboredone]

Let's be a bit more serious here, shall we? This example sounds good and all, but it's a definite fact that all the top players of EVERY character in the game are not newbs. They are, quite simply, amazing players.

They don't play with the exact same skill level, but allow me to say that if for the purposes of the argument their skill level is "close enough." The main thing deciding victories at the top level of play are the characters themselves. If Samus had, as previously stated, a significant advantage over Ike then whenever the top Ike (San) and the top Samus (Xyro) play the outcome should really not look like the ratio is in Ike's favor. But that's exactly what's happening, isn't it?

At some level, we (as a community) should be willing to say that our theories were wrong in the face of evidence. We should be willing to say "hey, this doesn't match what we had predicted" and, instead of looking confused, should be looking to explain WHY something happened. And, at the top level of play for both characters, "San is a boss" doesn't really cover it as well as it should.

Nys' example was a bit extreme, but you can make that same example for even the top players. We don't have a scouter or skill level examiner for each player, but one can argue that San's overall skill with Ike, and skills that come naturally such as reading, predicting, etc are at a higher level than Xyro's. Match up discussions should be based on two things in my opinion and that is what options each character has, and that each character is being played at their highest level. So when we examine the Ike v Samus MU. We shouldn't think Xyro vs San. We should think two perfect beings, robots, deities that can execute to perfection. We then think of all the options each character has and determine the appropriate ratio. In this case, Samus has more options against Ike and presents more trouble to Ike than Ike presents to Samus. 60:40 or whatever it is.

 

[YagamiLight]

Nys' example was a bit extreme, but you can make that same example for even the top players. We don't have a scouter or skill level examiner for each player, but one can argue that San's overall skill with Ike, and skills that come naturally such as reading, predicting, etc are at a higher level than Xyro's. Match up discussions should be based on two things in my opinion and that is what options each character has, and that each character is being played at their highest level. So when we examine the Ike v Samus MU. We shouldn't think Xyro vs San. We should think two perfect beings, robots, deities that can execute to perfection. We then think of all the options each character has and determine the appropriate ratio. In this case, Samus has more options against Ike and presents more trouble to Ike than Ike presents to Samus. 60:40 or whatever it is.

I definitely see where you are coming from with that argument and I acknowledge that it could simply be the case that San is a better player than Xyro is, I suppose.

But, despite San and Xyro not being perfect beings, is it not possible that both of them are playing as close to perfection as they can? Being top players, they both clearly know their character at a level close to perfection and they also know Brawl techniques to a similar level. At said point, is it not possible that even if San is better than Xyro at some aspects of Brawl, there should not be such a decisive victory count for San if he is playing against the top player of a character that counters his and that player (Xyro) has a very large amount of experience in that match-up to boot.

What I think is happening is that we are missing something fundamental in the Samus v Ike match-up that San has pinpointed and is executing well or it may simply be that the whole system is a bit flawed in that it doesn't account for the fact that if you remove the level of "mindgames" from the equation that Samus v Ike is more clear cut than it is in reality.

 

[Mr. Doom]

You guys make a big deal over this.

 

[TheJerm]

Lol, xyro still talking about those san matches..

Even though I was trying pretty hard most of the games we played, in the end, they were all friendlies. Even those "tournament" matches was from a free tournament. Things change when there's something to lose on the line. Whether san would play worse when there's money on the line, or I'd play better, who knows.

I have a good example of this actually. At oh snap, I played about 4 or 5 friendlies with cyphus, a Dk that has alot of hyro practice. He beat me every friendly, and I was actually trying hard after losing the first couple of games, then we ended up MM like 30 min later and I 2-0d him.

 

[TX7Killian]

like always too late. geez, I'm sure that was epic =/
where are the videos? I wanna see some epic videos ;<

 

[Dark 3nergy]

were da vids at op

 

[Xyro77]

the vids are going on my YT now.

what i dont think people are getting is the fact that ike does not go even or counter samus/falco/tl(insert example) its the fact SAN make smart choices. like ive always said, SAN beat me....not ike.

 

[Sharky]

Step up your samus

Also don't match-up values change due to the current top metagame? I'm not mentioning any other characters because I'm comparing the BEST players of each character, and I don't think we can call ozz or sky the best falco, for example. I don't know about TL so I won't comment on that, and the G-nes matches were friendlies. Top MK's have so far been mostly prevalent over him, and San admits that that match-up is heavily against him, and I would agree based on these results at the top level.

No matter how much theory crafting goes on about what SHOULD happen, what really matters is what DOES happen, and what IS happening is an Ike stomping on a Samus.

 

[Xyro77]

There is no theory crafting.

Ike doesnt hinder samus in ANY way. If anything, Samus hinders ike(samus hurts ike recovery more so than a normal character, for example). In this case(watch the vids when they get up) San PowerShields everything and capitalizes on like 90% of my mistakes. So in this case, SAN wins not ike. When the ike players see the vids they will understand(after all, they know their character).



PS: Tier lists(or MUs) are not made based off of players or player vs player. If they were then LEGAN/XYRO/SAN/REFLEX/VEX/YOSH/THINKAMAN would be in high tier right now because we beat people who we should never beat. Tier lists/Mu's are made off of CHARACTER VS CHARACTER in a over all type of setting.

 

[Suspect]

San is m2ks illegitimate son

 

[Sharky]

There is no theory crafting.

Ike doesnt hinder samus in ANY way. If anything, Samus hinders ike(samus hurts ike recovery more so than a normal character, for example). In this case(watch the vids when they get up) San PowerShields everything and capitalizes on like 90% of my mistakes. So in this case, SAN wins not ike. When the ike players see the vids they will understand(after all, they know their character).



PS: Tier lists(or MUs) are not made based off of players or player vs player. If they were then LEGAN/XYRO/SAN/REFLEX/VEX/YOSH/THINKAMAN would be in high tier right now because we beat people who we should never beat. Tier lists/Mu's are made off of CHARACTER VS CHARACTER in a over all type of setting.

You're still forgetting the TOP players bit. None of those players you mentioned except San have had THAT kind of success (except my boi Yosh beating you lol). Get the point plz. =/

Also before you say anything vex and reflex definitely use other characters to get by.

 

[AN(M)ist]

@ suspect ~~the name suits this guy.

nyway, saw the first vid... & must say Xyro has a legit point here about MU. I have such a terrible time against samus (wow my vids r right at the suggestions list, lol), but then I'm nowhere near San to actually say where Ike really stands.

 

[UltimateRazer]

xyro, this is xyro's ghost speaking, i didn't get 3-0'd. i got 3-1'd was up 2-1 in GF then he left and didnt i also win another 3/5 set 3-1? ok. done deal.