SBR Weekly character Discussion: Ike

[Arturito_Burrito]

none of those aimed for the ledge if you noticed.

that part means the hit box could come out on frame 16 or 17. He doesn't know how long hit boxes last.

I didn't actually spend time looking for these just saw 2 matches from my thread.

not to mention you just asked for us to show you how its easily edge guard it doesn't really matter what I said I gave you want to wanted.

All of Ike's edge guard moves are just go out there and die moves and most of the time your going to be edge guarding at a percent that Ike can kill falco anyways because his second jump is huge and Ike has no way of getting him off stage at low percents.

Falco is also very light that Uair kill could have happened at a much lower percent don't know which so go fix this. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=180189

I've edited this like 5 times already lol. Anyways all of these "unsuccessful edge guards" can kill falco at higher percents. Sure Ike can't gimp him at low percents but this is what makes his recovery bad and Ike will be able to kill him easily when he is using it.

 

[XBart-ManX]

My hint is amazing.


Azen gets 10 million internets for the Miyamoto Musashi reference.




Ike is one of the most fun characters to play in the game, for me.... but unfortunately he doesn't really live up to the challenge at high level play. His most common damage dealer, literally, is roll to A-A-A combo in most games I play with Infern.

Ike, despite his easily gimped recovery, has a pretty good edgeguarding game. If you can guess what your opponent is doing, one dair or bair can finish them off.

In fact, if you can guess what your opponent is doing Ike can pretty much beast them. F-tilt or f-smash on the ground are awesome KO moves, Ike's u-air is amazing, Ike's dair is amazing, and his nair has no lag and thus can combo easily into his jab combo.

If Ike couldn't be gimped so easily he'd have a much better shot... but it is rare that Ike isn't gimped at least once in a set. You'd think this would make him better in teams, but he gets gimped just as bad (if not worse) there. Ike does fantastic on stages like Norfair, Yoshi's Island (Pipes), Delfino, and any other stage with unique ledges/boundries. Many of his matchups that are incredibly one-sided become much more in favor of Ike in these situations. It's amazing how poorly people generally play against Ike; their game almost always revolves solely around gimping him. When you take that out of the equation with these different stages, it becomes a very unique matchup that is difficult to adapt to.

Ike is a horrible, horrible main. You are almost guaranteed to lose on the neutral if your opponent is good and has a decent matchup against you because every time you leave the edge you are in significant danger... while they are not.

That said, Ike is one of the best counterpick characters in the game. People have great difficulty fighting competent Ike's when said Ike's are on their CP stages and play to their strengths, and NO ONE (even Ike mains) knows whether Ike is good or bad against characters other than MK on these counterpick stages.

If you want a "fun" character, pick up Ike. Play him for fun with your friends and then if need be, throw him out in tourney on a counterpick if your opponent picks norfair or if you feel the need to switch things up.

He's also got neat tricksies. Something I used to do when the game first came out but have yet to see since... I used to double jump and start charging eruption when my opponent grabbed the edge. If my opponent goes off the edge, I release to hit him. If he hits me, I am super armored and he gets hit. This obviously is a reaction-time gamble, but it's still hella fun. :D


Also, Ike has a ***** taunt.

Ike can be a challenge,you just have to learn from his timing.

 

[metroid1117]

none of those aimed for the ledge if you noticed.

The one where NinjaLink edgehogged Falco is one.

that part means the hit box could come out on frame 16 or 17. He doesn't know how long hit boxes last.

Reading the opening statements of the thread (before the actual data) is always helpful.

I didn't actually spend time looking for these just saw 2 matches from my thread.

No johns? But seriously, if it really is that easy, then make a video of yourself edgeguarding Falco in the middle of his side+B. You recorded matches with Azen and Bored, so it's not like you can't make videos. You can also have your sister help you test by being Falco. (No, I'm not a stalker, I just remembered this fact when you tried testing MK's death percentages.)

not to mention you just asked for us to show you how its easily edge guard it doesn't really matter what I said I gave you want to wanted.

A successful edgeguard leads to a kill. None of your examples except the edgehog and the UAir killed the Falco.

All of Ike's edge guard moves are just go out there and die moves and most of the time your going to be edge guarding at a percent that Ike can kill falco anyways because his second jump is huge and Ike has no way of getting him off stage at low percents.

Edgeguarding applies to any %; in Melee, people said Falco and Fox were ridiculously easy to edgeguard as Marth because once they were off the stage they were most likely dead (regardless of their great double jumps). Ike can get him off the stage with throws; if Falco's double jump lets him get back, then that must mean Falco is not easy to edgeguard. Also, DAir spiking is an example of "die early and cry about it."

Falco is also very light that Uair kill could have happened at a much lower percent don't know which so go fix this. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=180189

That thread shows when people die in Training Mode at FD on standing level 1 CPUs. It doesn't show what happens in a real match. Test it for yourself with the same conditions and if you get a different result, tell me at what % and I'll retest it.

I've edited this like 5 times already lol. Anyways all of these "unsuccessful edge guards" can kill falco at higher percents. Sure Ike can't gimp him at low percents but this is what makes his recovery bad and Ike will be able to kill him easily when he is using it.

That means that Falco's side+B is easily punished when used at high %s. Let's take a closer look at Rykoshet's match with R00kie's Falco (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqdEa39YZBM).

0:26 - R00kie uses side+B at 54%; Rykoshet is forced to shield it and ends up off-stage from the shield push. Failed punish.
0:50 - R00kie uses side+B at 86%; Rykoshet is hit by it. Failed punish.
1:06 - R00kie uses side+B at 107%; Rykoshet eats a DSmash from R00kie because there was hardly any ending lag from side+B. Failed punish.
1:17 - R00kie uses side+B at 121% from a wall-jump; Rykoshet is forced to shield it. Failed punish
1:43 - R00kie uses side+B at 9%; Rykoshet tried to FAir him, but was too slow. Failed punish.
2:12 - R00kie uses side+B at 60%; Rykoshet jumped out but was only able to DAir him because R00kie got onto the stage. Failed punishment (of side+B itself).
2:26 - R00kie uses side+B at 92%; Rykoshet was guessing he'd go for the stage, but he went for the edge. Failed punish. (R00kie eats a FAir because he edgehopped, but the side+B itself went unpunished.)
2:31 - R00kie uses side+B at 105%; Rykoshet doesn't do anything and R00kie misses the stage because he didn't DI the FAir. Shouldn't count for either of us because if R00kie DI'd, he would've lived, but I'll just put that as "successful punish."
2:39 - R00kie uses side+B at 17%; Rykoshet shields it and gets a grab. Successful punish.
2:46 - R00kie uses side+B at 31%; Rykoshet guessed it, but couldn't punish him. Failed punish.
3:00 - R00kie uses side+B at 54%; Rykoshet guesses it and gets a free DAir. Successful punish.
3:07 - R00kie uses side+B at 101%; Rykoshet didn't do anything to stop it. Failed punish.
3:09 - R00kie uses side+B at 101%; Rykoshet guesses it, but missed the grab. Failed punish.
3:29 - R00kie uses side+B out of an edgehop at 120%; Rykoshet airdodges because he thought R00kie would go onstage. Failed punish.
3:30 - R00kie uses side+B out of an edgehop; Rykoshet is hit by it. Failed punish.

Looking at high %s only, we get timestamps 0:50, 1:06, 1:17, 2:26, 2:31, 3:07, 3:09, 3:29, and 3:30. Of those, Rykoshet failed to punish side+B eight times and only punished it once. A success rate of 1 per every 9 hardly counts it as a "bad recovery" at high %s. Now let's look at the timestamps when R00kie uses it to recover (rather than from an edgehop); we now have 0:50, 1:06, 2:26, 2:31, and 3:07. Now that makes four fails and 1 success (which is still iffy because Rykoshet didn't do anything to punish for it). A success rate of 1/5 is still not good. Keep in mind that these are at high %s and when Falco is using it to recover; Rykoshet clearly did not have a easy time punishing the side+B. (No offense at all to Rykoshet is intended, I just used this video to get a highly-regarded Ike player.)

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

The one where NinjaLink edgehogged Falco is one.

then what are you whining about thats how its done.

Reading the opening statements of the thread (before the actual data) is always helpful.

talking to him about it and asking questions is even more helpful. Not only that but knowing how he does his testing and him saying he doesn't know for sure how long the hit box lasts is even more more more helpful.

No johns? But seriously, if it really is that easy, then make a video of yourself edgeguarding Falco in the middle of his side+B. You recorded matches with Azen and Bored, so it's not like you can't make videos. You can also have your sister help you test by being Falco. (No, I'm not a stalker, I just remembered this fact when you tried testing MK's death percentages.)

like I said I'm not out to prove that Ike can edge guard falco easily. I'm not trying to make his match suddenly 40:60. I'm not going to go out of my way to show you how to hit falco with eruption. If you learn the timing of his illusion and he doesn't have room to go above you then you can hit him with eruption very easily. The best thing falco could do here is mind game you by using his up B but if you don't fall for it then he's screwed for sure.

A successful edgeguard leads to a kill. None of your examples except the edgehog and the UAir killed the Falco.

Theres only 3 stocks a match 2/3 for with edge guards what more do you want?

Edgeguarding applies to any %; in Melee, people said Falco and Fox were ridiculously easy to edgeguard as Marth because once they were off the stage they were most likely dead (regardless of their great double jumps). Ike can get him off the stage with throws; if Falco's double jump lets him get back, then that must mean Falco is not easy to edgeguard. Also, DAir spiking is an example of "die early and cry about it."

This isn't melee.

That thread shows when people die in Training Mode at FD on standing level 1 CPUs. It doesn't show what happens in a real match. Test it for yourself with the same conditions and if you get a different result, tell me at what % and I'll retest it.

I said go fix this because your images are broken.

That means that Falco's side+B is easily punished when used at high %s. Let's take a closer look at Rykoshet's match with R00kie's Falco (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqdEa39YZBM).

0:26 - R00kie uses side+B at 54%; Rykoshet is forced to shield it and ends up off-stage from the shield push. Failed punish.
0:50 - R00kie uses side+B at 86%; Rykoshet is hit by it. Failed punish.
1:06 - R00kie uses side+B at 107%; Rykoshet eats a DSmash from R00kie because there was hardly any ending lag from side+B. Failed punish.
1:17 - R00kie uses side+B at 121% from a wall-jump; Rykoshet is forced to shield it. Failed punish
1:43 - R00kie uses side+B at 9%; Rykoshet tried to FAir him, but was too slow. Failed punish.
2:12 - R00kie uses side+B at 60%; Rykoshet jumped out but was only able to DAir him because R00kie got onto the stage. Failed punishment (of side+B itself).
2:26 - R00kie uses side+B at 92%; Rykoshet was guessing he'd go for the stage, but he went for the edge. Failed punish. (R00kie eats a FAir because he edgehopped, but the side+B itself went unpunished.)
2:31 - R00kie uses side+B at 105%; Rykoshet doesn't do anything and R00kie misses the stage because he didn't DI the FAir. Shouldn't count for either of us because if R00kie DI'd, he would've lived, but I'll just put that as "successful punish."
2:39 - R00kie uses side+B at 17%; Rykoshet shields it and gets a grab. Successful punish.
2:46 - R00kie uses side+B at 31%; Rykoshet guessed it, but couldn't punish him. Failed punish.
3:00 - R00kie uses side+B at 54%; Rykoshet guesses it and gets a free DAir. Successful punish.
3:07 - R00kie uses side+B at 101%; Rykoshet didn't do anything to stop it. Failed punish.
3:09 - R00kie uses side+B at 101%; Rykoshet guesses it, but missed the grab. Failed punish.
3:29 - R00kie uses side+B out of an edgehop at 120%; Rykoshet airdodges because he thought R00kie would go onstage. Failed punish.
3:30 - R00kie uses side+B out of an edgehop; Rykoshet is hit by it. Failed punish.

Looking at high %s only, we get timestamps 0:50, 1:06, 1:17, 2:26, 2:31, 3:07, 3:09, 3:29, and 3:30. Of those, Rykoshet failed to punish side+B eight times and only punished it once. A success rate of 1 per every 9 hardly counts it as a "bad recovery" at high %s. Now let's look at the timestamps when R00kie uses it to recover (rather than from an edgehop); we now have 0:50, 1:06, 2:26, 2:31, and 3:07. Now that makes four fails and 1 success (which is still iffy because Rykoshet didn't do anything to punish for it). A success rate of 1/5 is still not good. Keep in mind that these are at high %s and when Falco is using it to recover; Rykoshet clearly did not have a easy time punishing the side+B. (No offense at all to Rykoshet is intended, I just used this video to get a highly-regarded Ike player.)

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196137 his recovery is bad.

 

[metroid1117]

then what are you whining about thats how its done.

I'm not whining, I'm refuting your original statement that

not edge guard falco? lmao his recovery is like barely better than Ike's. It's very easy to edge guard him he can't even aim for the ledge because he will die from a half charged eruption or spike.

talking to him about it and asking questions is even more helpful. Not only that but knowing how he does his testing and him saying he doesn't know for sure how long the hit box lasts is even more more more helpful.

You got me there, but the thread indicates that (1) the list should have 95% accuracy and (2) the hit part of the list states when the attack hits and ends. If the attack hits in two frames and has a data error of 95%, that's still 3 frames of hitbox at best.

like I said I'm not out to prove that Ike can edge guard falco easily. I'm not trying to make his match suddenly 40:60. I'm not going to go out of my way to show you how to hit falco with eruption. If you learn the timing of his illusion and he doesn't have room to go above you then you can hit him with eruption very easily. The best thing falco could do here is mind game you by using his up B but if you don't fall for it then he's screwed for sure.

... What are we arguing about then?

Theres only 3 stocks a match 2/3 for with edge guards what more do you want?

My argument is that if side+B easy to edgeguard, Falco shouldn't be living that long.

This isn't melee.

Fine, a Brawl example then: MK completely destroys Fox (and, by extrapolation, Falco) because he can get him off-stage easily, knock him out of his side+B easily, and Fox's up+B is just laughably easy to gimp. Their double jumps can't save them from the DAir.

I said go fix this because your images are broken.

That's odd, they work fine on my computer. Is anyone else having this problem? (Out of curiosity, not as a debate point.)

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196137 his recovery is bad.

That doesn't mean that Ike has an easy time edgeguarding him; different characters have different options. We're talking about whether or not Ike can edgeguard Falco easily.

By the way, just to make it clear: I don't have any resentment towards you, even if my rebuttals have a condescending tone to them. I'll always respect you as one of the more intelligent posters in this forum. (The last time I had a debate with someone, the end result was pretty bad.)

 

[comboking]

that or ryko just doesn't have much falco experience

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I'm not whining, I'm refuting your original statement that

Well thats how you easily do it you just speed hug. You can also charge eruption maybe I'm wrong about the Dtilt its just something that I heard ryko say once but if you don't know how to edge guard falco with eruption then thats not my fault.

You got me there, but the thread indicates that (1) the list should have 95% accuracy and (2) the hit part of the list states when the attack hits and ends. If the attack hits in two frames and has a data error of 95%, that's still 3 frames of hitbox at best.

It would be a data error of 5% for your math to be wrong /geek

Being 95% correct only applies to how long a move lasts and when the initial hit begins. Kirk tests all of his data by recording at 60FPS and then slowing down the video so he can see every single frame. With this method it is impossible to know when the hit box ends because he would have to get inside of the hit box on that very last frame. Do you think kirk can move P2 into Ike's Dtilt every frame he wants to? The answer is NO.

... What are we arguing about then?

Because you don't think Ike can edge guard falco easily. I know I said he can but thats all I'm going to do, I've done it and I really don't feel like going to upload videos of it even with the ways you described (those results would be skewed by the way).

My argument is that if side+B easy to edgeguard, Falco shouldn't be living that long.

Ike has nothing to force him to use his side B though. Falco lives that long because he doesn't need to use side B till high percents just like Ike doesn't have to use aether till high percents.

Fine, a Brawl example then: MK completely destroys Fox (and, by extrapolation, Falco) because he can get him off-stage easily, knock him out of his side+B easily, and Fox's up+B is just laughably easy to gimp. Their double jumps can't save them from the DAir.

Ok MK gimps falco and fox's double jump Ike doesn't big deal.

That's odd, they work fine on my computer. Is anyone else having this problem? (Out of curiosity, not as a debate point.)

really? It takes me to the imageshack website instead maybe you should just put them as images so no one has to click anything.

That doesn't mean that Ike has an easy time edgeguarding him; different characters have different options. We're talking about whether or not Ike can edgeguard Falco easily.

I know but you said falco didn't have a bad recovery TL:DR the rest. Especially since your listed was a horrible way to disprove Ike not being able to punish falco's recovery. You could do the same thing with Ike and olimar every time they make it back to the stage.

By the way, just to make it clear: I don't have any resentment towards you, even if my rebuttals have a condescending tone to them. I'll always respect you as one of the more intelligent posters in this forum. (The last time I had a debate with someone, the end result was pretty bad.)

Meh I don't mind I've probably called everyone an idiot in the Ike boards. I don't hold grudges with anyone.


edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4goJzib4UQ at 7 minutes ryko owns a fox not sure what else you want.

 

[Rykoshet]

Illusion by all means is ridiculously easy to edgeguard at any point it's aimed for anything but the ledge, however I'm a rather mediocre player so I just pull back and hope people forget for a second and use a power move to try to just take the stock out easily.

 

[NinjaLink]

wth is goin on here >_>

 

[mimic_king]

Just two people arguing. GONG YI TA PAI!!!

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

wth is goin on here >_>

Someone said it was hard to edge guard falco I said lol and posted your vidz.

 

[NinjaLink]

Someone said it was hard to edge guard falco I said lol and posted your vidz.

oh ok. U just have to know what ur doin. U have dair, uair, eruption, QD(at times. doesnt always work), jab and i think ftilt.

 

[mimic_king]

Don't forget aether

 

[Palpi]

Don't forget aether

Just hope the timing on aether isn't messed up.

 

[NinjaLink]

Good Point. I'm uploading an ike vid in teams showing why not to pick pirate ship on me..

 

[metroid1117]

Good Point. I'm uploading an ike vid in teams showing why not to pick pirate ship on me..

That video was too funny. I really need to learn how to use Ike's Aether/DAir in the water like that.

 

[mimic_king]

Also learn to use forward smash on a Meta Knight. It feels good! Meta Knight is a ****ing gay *******!!!

 

[Palpi]

Also learn to use forward smash on a Meta Knight. It feels good! Meta Knight is a ****ing gay *******!!!

It really works if you can predict the future. (Forward smash, 'wait for it... wait for it' HIT!)

I bet it does feel good, but I wouldn't use it as a crutch.

 

[mimic_king]

but I wouldn't use it as a crutch.

I would

 

[NinjaLink]

I wouldnt bother with fsmash on MK. First his spotdodge and roll are 2 fast. Even if u predict it, its faster and he'll block it or whatever before then. 2 his glide. His glide attack clashes with the fsmash.........(i hate this so much T_T)

 

[doom dragon 105]

Ike in brawl plus is pretty **** good

Wavedashed jabs, l canceled fair it's pretty good

 

[mimic_king]

You can't wavedash in this game.

 

[Ussi]

He said brawl plus which equals brawl+

 

[mimic_king]

Oh. That would suck. Brawl has made me lose faith in another smash game.

 

[spartan334]

The only way you can main Ike is if you are miles ahead of your competition....
destroying people's hopes and dreams with Ike is really fun though >.< Ike also requires you to be able to read your opponent like crazy so you might not win the first few times you play them but it should get easier over time... There my two cents as if anyoned cared what I think

 

[Shade_]

Ike is fire emblem which is why i main him. I wish they had Lyn instead though.

Mk is annoying, I feel like the amount of effort I put in to win the match is almost the edge of my game, where as the metaknight doesnt really feel any pressure and keeps up with half his skill level.

Forward smash only works if they are on a plat from, and i dont recomend it against mk, ikes big plus if he reads you he can land that forward smash after a dodge or roll. But in this case metaknight can make the mistake of rolling, or dodging and still have time to downsmash you before your f smash comes out.

What is this "Brawl +" i keep hearing about?

 

[mimic_king]

What is this "Brawl +" i keep hearing about?

If there was a new edition of brawl, like Sonic Mega Collection Plus, Marvel Ultimate Alliance Gold Edition, etc...

 

[•Col•]

If there was a new edition of brawl, like Sonic Mega Collection Plus, Marvel Ultimate Alliance Gold Edition, etc...

What are you talking about...

Brawl+ is basically Brawl with a bunch of hacks to remove some stuff and make it more Melee like. (L-canceling, hitstun, wavedashing, etc.)

 

[mimic_king]

whatever. same thing.

 

[•Col•]

whatever. same thing.

Wtf? No it isn't.

You had no idea what Brawl+ was. ._.

 

[mimic_king]

It was a joke.

 

[doom dragon 105]

Ike is fire emblem which is why i main him. I wish they had Lyn instead though.

YEY For fire emblem fans!

I wish they had Hector instead

Now can we you know, discuss something relevant.

I'll start I guess

Should Ike be a bsticker?

 

[Marauder]

How would he apply bsticking in a useful way?

 

[gsninja]

The only thing I've seen B-sticking with Ike used for was the lunge-back Quick Draw. Other than that, thre's pretty much no reason for B-sticking with him at all.

 

[•Col•]

The only thing I've seen B-sticking with Ike used for was the lunge-back Quick Draw. Other than that, thre's pretty much no reason for B-sticking with him at all.

You don't even need to set your c-stick to specials to do that... It's not very hard to do manually... ._.

 

[gsninja]

Really? I thought the only way to do it was by B-sticking (Never tried it manually, lol).

In that case, there really is no use for B-sticking at all.

 

[Marauder]

Honestly, you're better off leaving your Cstick to Smash.

SDI>>>>all.

 

[mimic_king]

Yeah. I never use b-sticking. I think it's stupid.

 

[doom dragon 105]

I just went to a tourney and I placed pretty bad seeing how I played a really good pro and a lucario player.

I'm having alot of problems with him, ant advice I could use

Weird thing is when i did friendlies I did really well against top florida pros ^_^

 

[Fizz-sama]

Brawl+ Ike is sex with a cape. STILL not too sure if the second dair can be teched or not, but dair - dair - fsmash? WTF? Too good. Still, with Brawl+ comes a lot of better combo opportunities for other characters as well. I'm really having trouble with some of the obvious characters. Marth, MK, Snake and sort of with C. Falcon and Fox.