Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[Scar]

Card, I've been in shock too. Someone told me that Gimpy posted a reactions thread and he said something about too much hitstun... I mean I'm glad there isn't TOO much hitstun... but like zero? It's terrible.

He is under the impression that they read these message boards and took out elements that would separate good players from the rest.

 

[Plairnkk]

How does ANYONE get off saying that Brawl is more balanced with characters than melee?

Seriously, wtf? And putting a number on it? 75%? Give me a break, man.

At the beginning of melee MANY more characters were useable too. Samus, Ganon, Luigi, these characters went out with time, because we learned to abuse them.

Just like in Brawl, we will learn to abuse characters and the selection will be just as - if not more - narrow than melee. The characters that camp the best will be the only useable characters due to an overall lack of mobility and character control present in the entire physics engine.

Anyone who thinks that a ton of characters are available for competitive play is stupid and ignorant, and will quickly be proven wrong with the results of tournaments. There are OBVIOUSLY still a few characters LEAGUES above the others.

It's just ridiculous that the majority of anti-brawl arguments are factual and solid with grounds of explanation whereas the pro-brawl arguments are based on hoping and the -POSSIBILITY- that the game will in the future become better.

To say the game is going to become more deep and thorough is more ignorant than to say the game is limiting, as we have much evidence to back our statements. You just hope and have an un-justified sense of optimism and faith in something that obviously doesn't deserve it, as per the comments of Sakurai himself.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

Is there any way an E for all copy is still floating around?? Maybe we could make copies and distribute it en masse...



There's gotta be one nintendo defector...

 

[Broly]

I'm ignoring you from now on. The highlighted portion just is breaking my brain, it's so awful. Time won't help the completely observable, unchangable, limiting mechanics of the game.

Time however WILL tell which characters have good matchups against other characters, and how silly little things can make counter matchups, leading to imbalance. I'd rather time NOT take its toll on the game in that regard, because it's only going to make it gayer.

ignore me all you want, u havent denied the impression of u being biased towards melee so im going to assume its true. all ur really doing is saying 'Oh my aching brain hes too noob for me' im giving out reasons to competition in Brawl, n u attack those with noobs comments w/o helping me realize my faults. all im saying, in melee was there balance in the game with wavedash n l-cancel or did it only help certain charcters. what about crouch cancel? did it help kirby, n pikachu, or only samus n peach?

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

ignore me all you want, u havent denied the impression of u being biased towards melee so im going to assume its true. all ur really doing is saying 'Oh my aching brain hes too noob for me' im giving out reasons to competition in Brawl, n u attack those with noobs comments w/o helping me realize my faults. all im saying, in melee was there balance in the game with wavedash n l-cancel or did it only help certain charcters. what about crouch cancel? did it help kirby, n pikachu, or only samus n peach?

Lol @ you. He's ignored you which means he can't read your posts. And there's no point in arguing with you. We use logic... not to mention grammar and punctuation... and you emit all the signs of being an idiot.

Anyways...

Oh my god I just read that Sakurai article, what a ****ing joke.

"It’s not like I think that serious competition is not interesting. It’s good to have equals fighting intensely. Yet, I understand quite well the feelings of children who just enjoy hitting a motionless opponent in things like a training mode."

So he thinks we're all just children?

Wow... that's insulting. No wonder he put out a crappy game.

for those that don't wanna go searching for the link here it is again,
http://www.n-sider.com/articleview.php?articleid=637
creds to Gimpyfish for finding it and Eternal Phoenix for the post from which I copied the link.

 

[blakinola]

Ah, it's such a mixed bag of feelings here.

I remember when I first played Melee seriously. Like I could always get by. I remember when I could beat Scar--then it got closer and closer until he finally bested me consistently. The joy you get in melee from seeing your hard work by beating the best of the best--there's no greater feeling. In the competitive melee scene, some people just have natural ability to pick up and be good at what they do (like Cactuar) but not without constant practice of tech. If they can do it, anyone can. Right? Perhaps, but more often than not, no.

There is always a ceiling to keep reaching for in Melee, which was uplifting and depressing at the same time. I'm 22. My hands and reflexes aren't what they used to be--especially after playing and getting used to Brawl mechanics. Even if I perfect my techniques, I know I won't reach such heights of even getting close to being a match for M2K. I'm not going to lie. I hate losing. I hate losing when I put a lot of effort into inputting buttons. I'm an okay Melee player and at this point I'm not getting as much out of it as I was getting four years ago.

Now, there's brawl. I will admit, there is not nearly enough tech skill required to do well. This is uplifting and depressing at the same time. Right now, I like that I can put up a fight. I like that I'm not getting 3 stocked, I like grabbing the ledge when there is actual ledge you can see with your eyes being grabbed. I like that I can play DK and really throw down--the game is a lot more accessible to me than melee was. And it's continuing to do so for the time being. Will that taper out over time? It's very possible. But for right now, Brawl is something tangible and manageable for someone like myself. I needed a change and Brawl is that change.

All this talk about balance and challenge, it's all relative. Brawl has a lower tech ceiling, it's apparent. But for the people who wanted to get into smash and not be so frustrated with what they had to strive for in order to even think about possibly being a factor in a competition, Brawl is that saving grace, and I'm happy it's here. Both games are here to stay, and that's all the security in knowing that I need.

I don't think Melee sucks, I just needed to break up with it after an abusive relationship, haha

 

[Scar]

ignore me all you want, u havent denied the impression of u being biased towards melee so im going to assume its true. all ur really doing is saying 'Oh my aching brain hes too noob for me' im giving out reasons to competition in Brawl, n u attack those with noobs comments w/o helping me realize my faults. all im saying, in melee was there balance in the game with wavedash n l-cancel or did it only help certain charcters. what about crouch cancel? did it help kirby, n pikachu, or only samus n peach?

I said that I'm not being biased, I'm just ignoring people who make no good points and telling them that they haven't made any good points... because they haven't made any good points.

People have already explained that M2 was helped immensely by wavedashing, Ganon would be unusable without l-cancelling, and was helped by CC and wavelands. I'm not going to list them all but that should do. All characters are better in Melee because of ATs. Yes, some were helped more than others, but unless every character is the same then of course some are going to be helped more than others.

No, you aren't to n00b for me, but the other guy was. I forget his name already. If you have a question then ask a question, it was already answered and fine, you haven't read it, wahtever. Don't tell me that wavedashing only helped top tier characters, 'cause then I'm going to call you dumb.

 

[Zankoku]

Is there any way an E for all copy is still floating around?? Maybe we could make copies and distribute it en masse...



There's gotta be one nintendo defector...

There's probably a very good reason we didn't even get a glimpse of Brawl on the Wii Shop Channel.

 

[Shai Hulud]

It's called Harrison Bergeron and Sakurai is the Diana Moon Glampers of Smash.

I think I'll stick this in my Sig. The comparison is so appropriate it's eerie.

What I'll never understand is why Sakurai was so concerned about destroying competitive Smash when we are just a tiny percentage of the game's buyers. The chances that some 8-year-old playing online actually has to fight a "professional wavedasher" (as I've seen tournament players called elsewhere) are pretty low. They're extremely low once you consider that tournament players would not take online seriously do its inherent flaws. So why did Sakurai destroy competitive Smash? The scrubs can always fight each other. In Melee the only place a scrub will ever have to fight a tournament player is at tournaments. The scrubs outnumber the tournament players. There's no shortage for the scrubs to organize their little scrubfest FFA tourneys. Most of the scrubs are unaware of competitive Smash. Its existence doesn't affect their enjoyment of the game whatsoever. The existence of competitive Brawl would not affect the enjoyment of scrubs playing Brawl either.

So I have to assume that Sakurai is opposed to competitive Smash not because it makes for a less enjoyable experience for scrubs, but ON PRINCIPLE, a misconstrued egalitarianism straight out of Vonnegut.

Handicapper General indeed. Ugh.

 

[BrimeZ]

Here's my 2 cents that will most likely be looked over in this thread. I want to start off with my orignial view of melee.

From the start, I was planning on getting competive as soon as Brawl came out. Then it got delayed, and I soon found out about the smashboards. Personally, I took competive Melee as something to do to help wait for Brawl. I thought there will be a very small few people left that would still play Melee once Brawl was out, so I wasn't going to take Melee that seriously.

Brawl is a different and new game, As people said. Alot of people who played Melee spent a bunch of time becoming technical and learning what there is to know about the game. And I think we can all agree that nobody including M2K knows everything about Melee, eventhough he may play like it. How many people know about this technique here;
Sklering!
I'm a Link main, and I haven't known about that technique until about 3 weeks before Brawl came out. And I haven't played anybody competive that knew about unless I used it against them.

I'm sure there's tons to be discovered like that in Brawl. In might take months, it might take years. There's alot to mess around with in Melee via the game physics, or control mapping etc...

There's still a big skill gap between competives and casuals in Brawl. I belive the ratio of wins between highly skilled players are closer than they used to be for a couple of reasons.
-Brawl is a new game that is very different from Melee. We all didn't know everything about Melee, and we picked up Brawl, we barely knew anything about it. Since there wasn't(isn't) alot of things known, skilled players adapted at the game at a similar rate. Obviously the skill gap would be smaller among competive players, it's not Melee 2.0
- Most of the AT and other options that players used to rely on all the time to give them there winz aren't in Brawl anymore. Therefore more technical players would have to rely more on there mindset.
-The game hasn't been out for 3 weeks yet. I'm more than sure it took more than 2 weeks to become a pro at Melee, or even really good for that matter.


We have yet to do as much research with Brawl as we did Melee. And all the people that hate Brawl aren't helping with that either. There's more characters, more stages, and more techniques than Melee if you don't count the advance techs. Like footstool jumping or swimming. I'm sure we can find AT's for those.

Melee has been out for almost 7 years, I believe Brawl has more potential than Melee. It was technically competive before it's release in the U.S. because there was tournaments ahead of time.

 

[Broly]

I said that I'm not being biased, I'm just ignoring people who make no good points and telling them that they haven't made any good points... because they haven't made any good points.

People have already explained that M2 was helped immensely by wavedashing, Ganon would be unusable without l-cancelling, and was helped by CC and wavelands. I'm not going to list them all but that should do. All characters are better in Melee because of ATs. Yes, some were helped more than others, but unless every character is the same then of course some are going to be helped more than others.

No, you aren't to n00b for me, but the other guy was. I forget his name already. If you have a question then ask a question, it was already answered and fine, you haven't read it, wahtever. Don't tell me that wavedashing only helped top tier characters, 'cause then I'm going to call you dumb.

no, i agree wavedash was helpful to everyone. And yes, most characters benefited from AT's. But honestly Scar, did those AT's help those characters like luigi, ganon, Dr. Mario, Mew2. win anything over fox, marth, shiek? I honestly disliked combo vids of Ness and Ganon because in the end, all it did was show how cool they were. im sorry if i seem to be a tourny ***, but that wut i see in the competition side. i look at every characters chance to win a tourny. Melee had about 8-10 people that stood a chance. there was such a huge number of characters in low/bottom tier. Although Brawl is new, Ican see other characters winning. like 18-20 of them. Why you ask? the absence of wavedash, l-cancel and Crouch cancel. it sucks but the balance is a pro over melee.

 

[controlfreak7]

False. This is why I call control freak a n00b.



His first point is worthless. No one is arguing that we wanted the same game. Second, it has yet to be clearly demonstrated that the game actually is balanced. We just haven't figured out the character matchups yet to say who is completely worthless and who is somewhat worthless and silly glitches that make characters unusable.

His points about tripping were very much "Tripping can help you." That's a scrubby attitude.

real funny... I never said anything about arguing that we wanted the same game I'm talking about pre-brawl. Before people decided they didn't like it and what they really wanted, i mean if people have something to complain about it could be anything that they didn't like in melee such as a "broken" character, some tech, or whatever... then they obviously didn't want it in the game.

"Second it has yet to be clearly demonstrated that the game actually is balanced"- Scar

ok scar this is it, that is the most horrid point I'm sure anyone has ever made in this topic and I haven't read through the 30 something pages of BS. So its too early to determine how balanced the game is? IS IT NOT ALSO TOO ****ING EARLY TO SAY HOW COMPETITIVE THE ****ING GAME IS IN THAT MOTHER****ING CASE? But, coming from someone that seems to be on the anti-brawl side of things that is a really really bad thing to say. You shouldn't even be allowed to say TOO EARLY.

My points about tripping are valid none the less. The only person perhaps in this world that probably agrees with tripping is sakurai, but its in the game, and it seems like there's no way to take it out, but too many people are exaggerating its negative effects. That's no scrubby attitude, that's just the fact of the matter. In melee if someone wavedashed into an f-smash (despite the fact that would be absolutely ********) wouldn't that be a negative effect of wavedashing? I'm just saying everything has its negative and positive effects and even though its not as likely for tripping its still possible. To simply argue that it is a scrubby attitude is way WAY worse than to say that I'm totally wrong because it all it shows is that my case is valid, but you don't want to accept it because of your bias.

I also find it funny that you called me a noob because you simply think that my arguments aren't valid. I thought the game determined who was noob...

Look I'm starting to lose more and more confidence in brawl myself, but there is also a lot of **** in front of me thats telling me it could still live up to melee. Really I think part of the reason that some people are so glued on to melee is because its not something they played for a few years, but more than half a freaking decade. I feel it is more of a psychological factor than anything else that people like you and I want to go back to melee. To get a mental picture in your head try switching brawl with melee. If brawl came out after 64 and you played that for 7 years (whether it be on and off or the full time), and then melee came out I'd say there's a great chance you would not like it initially, but then it when it begins to develop you start seeing its potential. For all i know i could be completely wrong about this, and we would blindly accept melee. (yet keeping in mind that we wouldn't know any of the techs that we know today especially wavedashing).

And when I think about it it saddens me when I play a game battles match and I wouldn't be able to tell if the person played melee just by the way they played. I can't argue that there is nearly nothing seperating the good players from the not so good players and it really does suck. I didn't even know about the whole significant change from the e4all demo til now. I didn't know that they literally found an l-cancel, i thought they just noticed there was no lag in a one of a character's aerials if they fast falled it. This really pisses me off, but look people you just can't assume that brawl is always going to be played the way it is now, I refuse to believe that until 2 maybe 3 years from now, despite the fact that I want to play melee more now.

 

[Scar]

Anywhere outside of the top top top level of Smash, you can win with any character. Pakman won basically every Philadelphia tournament with Luigi until Cactuar, and Mow was the best in the state, maining Zelda.

Yes, character matchups are too important and Marth/Sheik/Fox dominate pretty hard. But other characters can and have won large tournaments.

Anyways, if you're arguing that there are problems in Melee, no one is going to argue against that. I think there are a **** lot of things that are just plain unfair. But compared to Brawl, there are far fewer problems and a much more solid competitive gaming experience IMO.

 

[Shai Hulud]

There is always a ceiling to keep reaching for in Melee, which was uplifting and depressing at the same time. I'm 22. My hands and reflexes aren't what they used to be--especially after playing and getting used to Brawl mechanics. Even if I perfect my techniques, I know I won't reach such heights of even getting close to being a match for M2K. I'm not going to lie. I hate losing. I hate losing when I put a lot of effort into inputting buttons. I'm an okay Melee player and at this point I'm not getting as much out of it as I was getting four years ago.

Age Johns. I'm 22 as well and I play a pretty technical Fox (you can check out my laser vid). Not good, just technical.

Aren't most of the best players about our age? I think PC, Ken, Isai are all 22-23ish. The average age of Melee players was probably 18 - 20, and the average age of Brawl players is more like 12. I'm having a hard time justifying playing this ******** kid's game.

My only regret is to have started smashing so late and living in a pretty Smash-impoverished area.

 

[Scar]

ok scar this is it, that is the most horrid point I'm sure anyone has ever made in this topic and I haven't read through the 30 something pages of BS. So its too early to determine how balanced the game is? IS IT NOT ALSO TOO ****ING EARLY TO SAY HOW COMPETITIVE THE ****ING GAME IS IN THAT MOTHER****ING CASE? But, coming from someone that seems to be on the anti-brawl side of things that is a really really bad thing to say. You shouldn't even be allowed to say TOO EARLY.

I read this and then I stopped. If you had read my whole post, or any other post I have made in the past, you would see that this point has already been addressed. You really need to calm down.

Little bits of character matchups boil down to specific was certain characters can take advantage of others. The only way to know every matchup is to play them all a lot of times. This does nothing to negate the clear and observable inherent gameplay mechanics that prevent Brawl from being competitive.

 

[Card]

Card, I've been in shock too. Someone told me that Gimpy posted a reactions thread and he said something about too much hitstun... I mean I'm glad there isn't TOO much hitstun... but like zero? It's terrible.

He is under the impression that they read these message boards and took out elements that would separate good players from the rest.

Ok... I don't mean to derail this thread, but can we get some people to post their impressions about the differences between the E-For-All Demo and the Retail Version? I don't just mean the first layer differences, I want to hear about how you felt Brawl would turn out competitively after playing 4 days of the E-For-All Demo vs. how you felt Brawl would turn out competitively after playing 4 days of the Retail version. I want to hear mostly about the POTENTIAL seen in both versions of the game.

It would be great if Eternal, T!mmy and T0mmy, HuGS, and Gimpyfish and anyone else could jump in on this.

Because seriously, something drastic had to have happened at Sora Ltd. if what everyone is saying is true. It is almost as if the Design Philosophy that Sakurai had throughout 4 years of development on Brawl up until the Demo was shown to the public made a complete change. Maybe it wasn't even Sakurai choice? Maybe some of the Nintendo "higher-ups" pressured Sakurai to change the title at the last second, which lead to TWO delays, bypassing the Christmas Season. I won't even bother thinking up the semantics on the situation...

If it did, we need to do something about it.

We've got the community, we've got the voice. Instead of wasting 100 pages of intellectual debating, whining, and pondering on the "what if", we should do something about it. Whether its to get our hands on a mass produced Demo of Brawl, or get them to work on a 4th game in the franchise due in 1 or 2 years with a new mentality or even developer (for that matter), we should be heard.

I am immediately reminded about Starmen.net, a MOTHER fansite who have started up a certain "campaign" called EB-Siege, in order to have their voices heard to bring MOTHER3 to America. You can visit their website for all the information here; http://starmen.net/ebsiege/
They Call, Mail, and even send Enveloppe Art to Nintendo in order for their voices to be heard.



Why don't we try to do something such as this, instead of beating around the Bush for 100 pages?

 

[PityLord]

Cant posts like this be closed already? It says "inteligent" in the topics name but iy just turned into a flame war for both sides.

Everyone has their opinion about both games and everyone is fighting with their lives to prove their opinions, and seriously. Whats the point? You cant prove anything to anyone on the internet lolz. Its like trying to tell if the egg or the chicken where first (lol lame example).

For mysef I will get the game when it comes out in Europe and I WILL start a competetvie scene here cause I was really sad that Melee had zero attention here. I will try to study the game for a long time and will just ttemp to make it a very good and competetive game.

And so I bid you all farewell and hope that tasty watermelons will fill your lives with donut shops.

End.

 

[RaptorHawk]

Why you ask? the absence of wavedash, l-cancel and Crouch cancel. it sucks but the balance is a pro over melee.

PLEASE explain why you think the absence of these things makes it more balanced.


@ Card.... it would be great if we could get nintendo to do something, but what are the chances they would bother listening to us?

 

[Demon Kirby]

Maybe it wasn't even Sakurai choice? Maybe some of the Nintendo "higher-ups" pressured Sakurai to change the title at the last second, which lead to TWO delays, bypassing the Christmas Season.

That . . . actually makes some sense. It's a possibility, but I find it unlikely.

Also, a mass produced wouldn't be a good idea, would it? I heard there were a lot of bugs and glitches in it, I think.

Still, though, the voices against Brawl are the minority. The majority loves the game more than Melee. I doubt Nintendo would listen to us alone.

 

[controlfreak7]

I read this and then I stopped. If you had read my whole post, or any other post I have made in the past, you would see that this point has already been addressed. You really need to calm down.

Little bits of character matchups boil down to specific was certain characters can take advantage of others. The only way to know every matchup is to play them all a lot of times. This does nothing to negate the clear and observable inherent gameplay mechanics that prevent Brawl from being competitive.

No you don't get it scar. You can't simply choose what is too early to determine and what isn't. You cannot say that it is too early to determine whether or not the game is balanced and then say that the game is not competitive and it is guarenteed from this early on. You can only determine things that are 100% observable (and not opinion based) such as fox's shine still has the potential to shinespike. So you are able to observe the gameplay mechanics without noticing how they suit the characters and how well they do despite the fact that you must play characters in order to determine these things? What determines how good a character is,if you think about it, mostly as a result of how well the mechanics of the game suit them, if you can't determine what character wins a matchup, you can't really determine how the mechanics suit the character AND/OR don't have a full understanding of the mechanics and how they can be changed due to glitches, pre/post lag of a character's moves, etc.

For example, in melee the difference between landing an aerial without lag cancel and landing an aerial with lag cancel completely changes the mechanics of the game. Fox with no wavedashing or l canceling in melee would completely change how well he does in match ups. Whats to say that something as ground breaking as one of these techs can or cannot change how well a character does against other characters?

If it is too early to determine which characters beat which it is also too early to determine whether or not the game is playable on a competitive level.

There is one thing that i can guarentee you will show me (personally) that this game is no longer competitive. A formerly unknown player (who just started playing brawl when it came out) wins a tournament that a former melee pro was present at. If that happens, I will be much more inclined to accepting that the game is not competitive at this point in time. DSF is playing brawl on gamebattles and he has 0 losses. To me that says something...

People are attempting to use the facts that because some/most pros are dissappointed with brawl, that the game is not competitive (or it seems as though that is what they are trying to prove). Yet all or at least most of those pros are still playing the game, if it wasn't competitive don't you think that they would quit? In fact some players that seemed to have disappeared for a little bit are returning as well. I hadn't heard anything about azen for awhile until i watched videos of him playing brawl. I am not saying that these pros would rather not go back to melee or that just because they play they think it is competitive. I am rathering questioning why they continue to play it if they do not see that it has some sort of potential or something that is driving them to continue to play it. Most of all, I'm asking that this point does not continue to be made.

 

[PityLord]

Ok... I don't mean to derail this thread, but can we get some people to post their impressions about the differences between the E-For-All Demo and the Retail Version? I don't just mean the first layer differences, I want to hear about how you felt Brawl would turn out competitively after playing 4 days of the E-For-All Demo vs. how you felt Brawl would turn out competitively after playing 4 days of the Retail version. I want to hear mostly about the POTENTIAL seen in both versions of the game.

It would be great if Eternal, T!mmy and T0mmy, HuGS, and Gimpyfish and anyone else could jump in on this.

Because seriously, something drastic had to have happened at Sora Ltd. if what everyone is saying is true. It is almost as if the Design Philosophy that Sakurai had throughout 4 years of development on Brawl up until the Demo was shown to the public made a complete change. Maybe it wasn't even Sakurai choice? Maybe some of the Nintendo "higher-ups" pressured Sakurai to change the title at the last second, which lead to TWO delays, bypassing the Christmas Season. I won't even bother thinking up the semantics on the situation...

If it did, we need to do something about it.

We've got the community, we've got the voice. Instead of wasting 100 pages of intellectual debating, whining, and pondering on the "what if", we should do something about it. Whether its to get our hands on a mass produced Demo of Brawl, or get them to work on a 4th game in the franchise due in 1 or 2 years with a new mentality or even developer (for that matter), we should be heard.

I am immediately reminded about Starmen.net, a MOTHER fansite who have started up a certain "campaign" called EB-Siege, in order to have their voices heard to bring MOTHER3 to America. You can visit their website for all the information here; http://starmen.net/ebsiege/
They Call, Mail, and even send Enveloppe Art to Nintendo in order for their voices to be heard.



Why don't we try to do something such as this, instead of beating around the Bush for 100 pages?

OMG YES!!!

I have been thinking of the exact same thing when all the whining started. If you have time to whine why dont you try and do something about it? If a petition was made and man, many ,MANY annoying and frustrating to the company mails and posts and whatever else.

Although I have to say that if they would implement changes the changes should just be centered around hitstun, shieldstun, bringing back l-cancel crouch cancel and some other offensive aspects while retaining the defensive options (i.e the new airdodge).

 

[DRaGZ]

OMG YES!!!

I have been thinking of the exact same thing when all the whining started. If you have time to whine why dont you try and do something about it? If a petition was made and man, many ,MANY annoying and frustrating to the company mails and posts and whatever else.

Although I have to say that if they would implement changes the changes should just be centered around hitstun, shieldstun, bringing back l-cancel crouch cancel and some other offensive aspects while retaining the defensive options (i.e the new airdodge).

*sigh* It's not going to work. Things like this never work, especially against a hard-headed company like Nintendo.

At most, this is going to get Nintendo of America to think about it, but they're powerless in the face of the main corporation. The only way we could possibly get a shot is to get Reggie on board, but that'll take decades (not literally, but you know what I mean, Reggie don't care mang).

 

[giantimi]

Based on Card's post, which by the way I also think is a great idea, if Nintendo were to do such a thing for this series it'd be hard to find what things should be included in the game.

But I guess the most important thing for Nintendo to do would to make a game that CAN accommodate different fighting styles and gives players the choice of whether to be causal or not.

 

[Wiseguy]

I used to be one of the folks on this thread crying foul at those who claimed Brawl's gameplay lacked the depth of Melee. I'm beggining to see how wrong that was. Not because it's turning out to be correct, but because it really doesn't matter to me. Complicated combos and measuring technical skill just aren't why I play Smash religiously or why I bother to attend tournaments.

What I should have respected is that it IS really, really important to some of you. It was uncool of me to make light of the genuine debate on this thread with pointless arguments of which I know so little.

As as I'm concerned, Brawl is perfect. It's as "competitive" (that is: pertaining to competition or being
inclined to compete) as I'd ever want it to be. But I am genuinely sorry for my past behavior on this thread.

 

[Broly]

PLEASE explain why you think the absence of these things makes it more balanced.


@ Card.... it would be great if we could get nintendo to do something, but what are the chances they would bother listening to us?

Gladly, in Melee can kirby CC in to an efective d-smash? answer is no. can pikachu or zelda, wavedash into aneffective attack that can kill? no. Samus and Peach got nerfed, not because of the speed of the game, nor the loss of combos, but no CC and a cheap d-smash ended their spree. Ness couldn't f-air cancel to a f-smash as good as marth or even edgeguard like him can he? nope. without those certain AT's, the characters i listed get out of low/bottom tier, into mid/high.

 

[aho43]

I'm pretty sure Nintendo addressed the whole Mother3 thing w, "some fans are crazy." there isn't going to be another smash game in this generation of consoles. the people who give a **** probably don't even number in the thousands and the game sold what 1.4 million in its first week? its not worth the resources to nintendo.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

Gladly, in Melee can kirby CC in to an efective d-smash? answer is no. can pikachu or zelda, wavedash into aneffective attack that can kill? no. Samus and Peach got nerfed, not because of the speed of the game, nor the loss of combos, but no CC and a cheap d-smash ended their spree. Ness couldn't f-air cancel to a f-smash as good as marth or even edgeguard like him can he? nope. without those certain AT's, the characters i listed get out of low/bottom tier, into mid/high.

Lol, your ignorance is amusing.

Zelda can wavedash into a strong as hell fsmash or short hop fair or bair, and pikachu can wavedash into the second best usmash in the game, or short hop nair. Kirby's not at his best on the ground, and you can actually make him into a pretty badass character with wavedashing and aerials.

Ness had his own advantages, like djc. He's no Marth but he's no Bowser.

You should really think before speaking. Or just don't speak because you lack the knowledge to do so properly.


Edit: It's almost like you want to make every character the same... give Ness Marth's abilities? Give Kirby Peach's Dsmash? Who are you, Sakurai?

 

[controlfreak7]

one last thing to scar:

I watched your cf combo video and its cool =D, and it brings me to the last thing i have to tell you.

I'm not accusing you of making this thread because you're disappointed in how the changes effected falcon, but I know for sure that that is part of it. Like i've said before in the falcon thread, falcon didn't get nerfed he got brawled and this kind of saddens me to say, but if i was you I'd probably have the same exact problem with brawl. If i mained falcon in melee I would not be able to stand brawl and for this I have to apologize because I can totally see why youre disappointed. For all the characters that got nerfed or whatever in brawl i would just say who cares. But falcon got nerfed in fun, he isn't nearly as fun despite the fact that he is still good in brawl.

 

[aho43]

go to a tournament and look at how everyone plays. then come back and tell me that brawl's competitive scene isn't in trouble

 

[Winston]

Lol, just for reference, Broly isn't some completely random guy. He's the guy from texas who plays one handed while lying on a cart, and he beat Rob$ in a tournament. XD

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MYmXI-CYoc0

Just sayin'

 

[BlackPanther]

The problem is that all of the new people are just riding on hopes and dreams, "OMG GIVE IT TIME.", "OMG IT HASN'T BEEN OUT YET YOU CAN'T JUDGE IT". Well for one thing game reviewers do it all the ****in time. They don't spend months and years on a game, they play it the first few days it's out and then they write their reviews and give ratings accordingly. And you know what they're paid professionals at that, but guess what we've broken this game down even before the **** hit shelves in America. People modded their wiis and played the japanese version and ***** the **** out of Brawl. Do not tell us that we don't know what we're talkin about all you nubs have done is have hope for the game when we've actually studied it. The physics of the game has GUARANTEED that the game will remain slow and the lack of hitstun has GUARANTEED that good, effective combos are out of the window. Scar is not sayin that the meta game can not develop although as it stands now because of the physics of the game, it's hard to make a good approach to projectile campers so that's what metagame is bein developed into. And another thing I see no good balance in the characters right now. All I see is all of the characters with either effect projectiles or really high priority or low lag attacks camping the **** out of you and making it almost impossible to approach without gettin pwned in some sort of way.

Btw I think Pikachus upsmash was the best in the game.

 

[Shai Hulud]

Does anyone know how difficult it is to mod a Wii and hack Brawl? When Halo 2 came out a lot of the CE fans (myself included) were really pissed off because of the same kinds of reasons given in this thread. Somebody made a Halo 2 mod to make it more competitive, called Halo 2 CE (http://forums.halomods.com/viewtopic.php?t=22927). This gained some popularity but a tournament scene never developed around it because over time Halo 2 actually became pretty competitive.

But if something similar were possible for Brawl it could possibly develop a tournament scene given the number of disgruntled people.

Or even a Melee mod, to buff the low and mid tier characters and create a new tournament scene. I don't know anything about modding Gamecubes either. I don't think it's as mod-friendly as the XBOX, but this isn't my area of expertise so maybe someone else could address this question.

 

[aho43]

you could take a dump of the iso and look into the files and see if you can find out where the variables are stored for certain things like hitstun. that stuff may be move specific. itd be alot of work and not viable for tournies. nintendo recently sent out a system update to fix the trucha signer exploit which allowed people to modify wii isos and their signatures and run modified games. i think petitioning for a brawl revision or patch would be more productive, but it still wouldn't get you anywhere. the competitive market is a drop in the ocean for nintendo. the audience that the game is intended for, n00bs, enjoy the game immensely. hell, even i think its fun, its just not great for tournaments. fyi, i plan on entering brawl tournaments just to prove myself wrong. i really do want it to be awesome.

 

[DRaGZ]

Hey, uhm...I can't believe I'm saying this because I was so against it in the past...

But what about different modes in Special Brawl as a competitive standard? How will those different modes change anything?

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

Btw I think Pikachus upsmash was the best in the game.

Hm. Better than Fox's?

I suppose it's debateable, what I should have said is the second strongest usmash. Possibly the quickest too. It helps that you can sweetspot with the thundercloud right after an usmash. Either way, the point is that it's a sick sick move that is nasty out of a wavedash.

Come to think of it, the fsmash is a great kill move when wavedashing and spacing too.

I'm one of the few smashers that prefers pichu over pikachu... his usmash is badass too.

Anyways, my apologies for digressing a bit.

 

[Shai Hulud]

you could take a dump of the iso and look into the files and see if you can find out where the variables are stored for certain things like hitstun. that stuff may be move specific. itd be alot of work and not viable for tournies. nintendo recently sent out a system update to fix the trucha signer exploit which allowed people to modify wii isos and their signatures and run modified games. i think petitioning for a brawl revision or patch would be more productive, but it still wouldn't get you anywhere. the competitive market is a drop in the ocean for nintendo. the audience that the game is intended for, n00bs, enjoy the game immensely. hell, even i think its fun, its just not great for tournaments. fyi, i plan on entering brawl tournaments just to prove myself wrong. i really do want it to be awesome.

I don't know, if someone were able to do it and make a very detailed tutorial then other people could do it. It might be difficult and unrealistic but I think there's absolutely no chance Nintendo would do anything about it.

Has no one made any Melee mods?

 

[Plairnkk]

pikachus was stronger uncharged, fox's was stronger fully charged.

fox's also had better non-sweetspotted hitboxes

overall it's debatable

 

[DRaGZ]

I know that people have extracted the models out of Melee and used them as models for other purposes (Haloid comes to mind).

 

[BlackPanther]

pikachus was stronger uncharged, fox's was stronger fully charged.

fox's also had better non-sweetspotted hitboxes

overall it's debatable

Ah ok thanks. Well back on topic, I have nothin right now lol.

 

[aho43]

I don't know, if someone were able to do it and make a very detailed tutorial then other people could do it. It might be difficult and unrealistic but I think there's absolutely no chance Nintendo would do anything about it.

Has no one made any Melee mods?

here is the problem with this. lets say you:

1) actually figure out what hex code you need to edit to get the desired effects you want, for example: longer initial dash, increased hitstun for certain moves

2) edit it and get the desired effect

I suspect this is something that youd have to do for every single character in the game. It would be a laborious mod which most people won't know how to/be able to do. So you'd have to automate it for them.

I supose you could write a program that will patch any valid dump of the Brawl iso.

Or you could just distribute the modified iso yourself, which is illegal.

If someone wanted to use your modified copy of brawl they would need to have a modded wii.

The current exploit that lets people run modified games is the Trucha Signer exploit, which is what people used to create those DVD5 versions of Japanese Brawl that had the movies removed so it'd fit on a normal single layer DVD-R.

The most recent Wii System Update has introduced a means to render this exploit useless. It hasn't been implemented yet, but I'm sure the disc channel will get an update sometime to use it, otherwise why make it?

For this mod to be any useful you'd want it to essentially replace what people are playing on instead. There are too many obstacles keeping it from becoming widespread. People won't want to mod their wiis, and in a few months or sooner, your mod will be invalid because of Nintendo's system updates. It's either take Brawl as it is or petition for someone to fix the stuff in Brawl that some people want changed. The problem there is that even among the competitive community, I don't think most people care, not yet at least. Personally the only things I'd do are:

1) remove tripping
2) increase hitstun so you can freaking combo
3) maybe increase initial dash distance, so you can dash dance again, and make it so you can shield during initial dash.

I wouldn't mind setting up a website telling Sakurai what a jerkoff he is tho. He really should know that hes pissed some people off, even if they are a minority. Said people were probably the most loyal ones to his franchise too. Whatever.