Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[arrowhead]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165653&highlight=alphazealot

too good (just searched alphazealot)

the combos and defensive gameplay sections have serious flaws

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

Once I tried playing with no items and on fairly balanced stages, playing any other way just wasn't as fun. This was way before I started learning any techniques or really having an interest in playing the game at a high level. For me, it was just a more fun way to play for fun.

Same here, before I knew about any ATs at all I was playing without items and normal stages. It just made the game more of a fighting game and less chaotic, and allowed me and my friends to focus on fighting each other instead of scrambling around for items.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

Seriously. I would just be contributing to circle of bad argumentation and no accepting. As much as I’m I’d like to encourage a better development of Brawl, I can’t practice these sort of posts in this thread.

Oh you mean this quote:
"...Oh and according to Xerampelinae's logic, the biggest "competitive game" would be the lottery! Cuz OMGZORZ there's SOOOO many people trying to win that it's the greatest competitive game evar!!! OMG LOLZZ!!!!!11"

Apparently you can't follow postmodern satire logic, so I'll spell it out for you.

You claimed that what makes something competitive is the number of people competing for it, regardless of skill involved. Thus, according to you, the lottery would be defined as one of the biggest and best competitions out there, because there's boatloads of lottery tickets sold every day, many more than people playing smash.

Doesn't that seem ridiculous to you? The lottery is not a good example of competitive play, it's an example of a game of random chance that a lot of people play because the potential reward is so high.

So basically, if you can comprehend it, what I was saying is that your feeble logic fails. If you can make the parallel connection, you'll see that what I'm saying is that Brawl is not more competitive than Melee. Or perhaps your brain is incapable of long term potentiation...

And btw, everyone in this thread assumes you didn't play Melee and doesn't respect your opinion because what you say serves as evidence that you don't know what you're talking about... thus why I satired you as an obnoxious lolspeaking noob. Taking the "high and mighty" road doesn't work when you're ig'nant and pose as something that you're not. It just makes you look like more of an ***.

 

[shrinkray21]

My question to the people in this thread is it possible to be on both sides of this? Does it matter that melee is more "competative" than brawl? What happens now when all of the melee purists win? The problem is that you can win this argument and still be without a tourney scene. I'll admit it, I miss melee...every day I play brawl I complain about no l-cancel...if that was in, I wouldn't even care. But I just don't see the endgame...when this argument is over, does everyone feel better when they still don't have a tourney scene? I like going to tourneys and playing in competative gaming...to me it doesn't matter if a better option exists...my favorite game of all time was warlords I...but eventually I moved on b/c I didn't have anyone to play against anymore.

 

[SamDvds]

lolz brawl tourneys are gonna be like winning the lotto oh noez! and to answer the question above this post...in the sense of playing friendlies it doesnt matter so much...ppl can be on both sides...but when your talking about a tournament where entry fees are $10-20 plus the cost of gas, food, housing, when traveling to tourneys (b/c wifi sux)...then it does matter. It matters because no one is gonna want to throw their money in to get random results from their matches. ppl go to tourneys to prove their stuff and see how they stack up to other players...and with brawl lacking any serious skill, its pretty much pointless. The thing that kept the Melee tourney scene thriving for so long was the fact that there was no limit to how good a human could be at that game, so it was infinately possible to get better and improve your tournament results. In an ideal situation, i wouldnt mind seeing melee singles and brawl teams as the standard tournament set-up. but if it goes strictly brawl, then the scene will fizzle out im sure, because once everything about the game has been discovered, and the limits have been reached, it will get old...fast

 

[shrinkray21]

lolz brawl tourneys are gonna be like winning the lotto oh noez! and to answer the question above this post...in the sense of playing friendlies it doesnt matter so much...ppl can be on both sides...but when your talking about a tournament where entry fees are $10-20 plus the cost of gas, food, housing, when traveling to tourneys (b/c wifi sux)...then it does matter. It matters because no one is gonna want to throw their money in to get random results from their matches. ppl go to tourneys to prove their stuff and see how they stack up to other players...and with brawl lacking any serious skill, its pretty much pointless. The thing that kept the Melee tourney scene thriving for so long was the fact that there was no limit to how good a human could be at that game, so it was infinately possible to get better and improve your tournament results. In an ideal situation, i wouldnt mind seeing melee singles and brawl teams as the standard tournament set-up. but if it goes strictly brawl, then the scene will fizzle out im sure, because once everything about the game has been discovered, and the limits have been reached, it will get old...fast

It will get old...fast...for you...this is an opinion argument...so far, the tourney scene has been HUGE compared to melee b/c the semi-pro's are able to compete with each other. I think that the lack of competitiveness in brawl has helped the draw outs for the tourneys. I understand the argument you are making and it "could" be true in the future...but aren't the purists mad at the brawl players b/c we are banking on brawl getting better with time? I just think that complaining that YOU specifically don't like brawl has any bearing on the competitive community as a whole...b/c so far...at tourneys...people have a lot more complaints when they lose...melee was a better competitive game...but one that only gave the absolute best a chance to win...which was good for those people don't get me wrong...but brawl hasn't destroyed the competitive community...its made it grow b/c the competitive gap is smaller...that's a fact...whether its good or bad is once again...a matter of opinion.

 

[BIG C]

It will get old...fast...for you...this is an opinion argument...so far, the tourney scene has been HUGE compared to melee b/c the semi-pro's are able to compete with each other. I think that the lack of competitiveness in brawl has helped the draw outs for the tourneys. I understand the argument you are making and it "could" be true in the future...but aren't the purists mad at the brawl players b/c we are banking on brawl getting better with time? I just think that complaining that YOU specifically don't like brawl has any bearing on the competitive community as a whole...b/c so far...at tourneys...people have a lot more complaints when they lose...melee was a better competitive game...but one that only gave the absolute best a chance to win...which was good for those people don't get me wrong...but brawl hasn't destroyed the competitive community...its made it grow b/c the competitive gap is smaller...that's a fact...whether its good or bad is once again...a matter of opinion.

ROFL

1.) It's bigger because it's a new game and everyone thinks they are good just like melee was biggger once all the AT's were found out and people tohught they were good. As they realize they aren't good people quit.

2.) Sure the lack of competitiveness has made the scene bigger but, I don't see how that would make anyone want to play Brawl over melee. "Well we could play this boring game that takes forever in tournament, that has like barely any combo's, and is incredibly easy to play. Wait isn't there a game in which you practice and get better for it and is an exciting fast paced juggernaut that can be gay but it's fun because you can do stuff other than wait for an opening."

That is what everyone is "hating on brawl" for without the combos and being able to form an offensive strat that isn't majorly defensive at the same time it just isn't competitive as most define it. Plus, the fact that people coming to their first tournament aren't gonna get 3 stocked even though they have no idea what they are doing. These people are the ones that are like what no items? and what team attack on? still will more than likely get a person who has been to ten tournies down to 1 stock.

If I went to a 3rd strike or tekken tournament I'd get my **** wrecked because I have no idea what I am doing in those games even if I practiced to attempt to get good and went to the next one I'd still get my **** wrecked. THAT IS WHAT IS SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN WHEN YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO PLAY A GAME AND GO TO A SERIOUS TOURNAMENT FOR IT. There should always be a skill gap in competition.

It's like if a runner in the Olympics who averages like 30.45 in an event gets beat by a person who average 55.50 in the same event. It just shouldn't happen. Or better yet a High School track member beating an Olympic Runner when all the training they have comes from High School.

 

[Adi]

Anything can and will be competitive, so there always will be a Brawl competitive scene.

 

[BIG C]

Anything can and will be competitive, so there always will be a Brawl competitive scene.

Yes anything can be competitive but, that does not mean everything SHOULD be competitive. Rock Paper Scissors has competitions but, that doesn't mean it should. RPS is definitely meant to decide things that can't be decided (like shotgun when 2 ppl call it at relatively the same time) and as a fun thing to do. That's the whole point of these arguments it's not competitive nor should it be the competitive standard of the smash series.

 

[SamDvds]

lol i cant wait til some of these ppl pay to enter a tourney and lose all their investment plus a % of the pot because they tripped...see if they will be entering again after that...then again slot machines can be addictive *shrugs*

 

[Corigames]

lol i cant wait til some of these ppl pay to enter a tourney and lose all their investment plus a % of the pot because they tripped...see if they will be entering again after that...then again slot machines can be addictive *shrugs*

I lost my first tournament match up because I tripped. I was at %50 and and the Ike in front of me started to charge a Fsmash. I wanted to take advantage of this and grab him, but I tripped. This resulted in me dying off the side at that low percent. Woot, $5 down the drain.

 

[The Executive]

I lost my first tournament match up because I tripped. I was at %50 and and the Ike in front of me started to charge a Fsmash. I wanted to take advantage of this and grab him, but I tripped. This resulted in me dying off the side at that low percent. Woot, $5 down the drain.

Read the second line of my sig. Tripping must die.

 

[XERAMPELINAE]

Oh you mean this quote:
"...Oh and according to Xerampelinae's logic, the biggest "competitive game" would be the lottery! Cuz OMGZORZ there's SOOOO many people trying to win that it's the greatest competitive game evar!!! OMG LOLZZ!!!!!11"

Apparently you can't follow postmodern satire logic, so I'll spell it out for you.

You have got to be kidding me. "Postmodern satire logic..." Wtf is that? Do you practice "Postmodern satire logic" rhetorically or daily? If so, that is just sad beyond belief. There's postmodern philisophy, actually. And postmodern philosophy is skeptical of philosophy as a whole or tends to overlook it. Postmodern logic or "Postmodern satire logic" (seriously, "satire"? That only applies to literature) would just be the mockery of logic or, simply put, anti-logic. A person who knows logic does not follow that at all-- it would be absurd. What philosophy/logic book has that term you mentioned anyway? (PM me if you want to respond.)

You claimed that what makes something competitive is the number of people competing for it, regardless of skill involved.

I claimed WHAT?! I've said this over and over: don't misinterpret what I wrote or affirm that I wrote that. Use QUOTES, dammit! Here is what I originally wrote:

Now, please note that competive value is independent of the content present in Melee. Competitive value depends on how many people want to prove themselves in a certain area by competing.

Does that up there have the words "regardless of skill involved"?! NO. I never wrote that and I never meant that. I wrote "content," and that doesn't equal skill.

Thus, according to you, the lottery would be defined as one of the biggest and best competitions out there, because there's boatloads of lottery tickets sold every day, many more than people playing smash. Doesn't that seem ridiculous to you? The lottery is not a good example of competitive play, it's an example of a game of random chance that a lot of people play because the potential reward is so high.

Again, you are interpreting my words wrongly and to your benefit to demolish my argument. That is a SERIOUS fallacy and arguing against it would be pointless.

So basically, if you can comprehend it, what I was saying is that your feeble logic fails....

Speak for yourself, strawman builder...

And btw, everyone in this thread assumes you didn't play Melee and doesn't respect your opinion because what you say serves as evidence that you don't know what you're talking about... thus why I satired you as an obnoxious lolspeaking noob. Taking the "high and mighty" road doesn't work when you're ig'nant and pose as something that you're not. It just makes you look like more of an ***.

Look, that up there is just as intolerable as you saying that my logic is feeble. Nobody respects my opinion because everyone just assumes that I have never played Melee based on what I wrote. If you know English and actually read the few posts I made in this thread, then you must have seen the following:

...And, no-- I am not ignorant of the the high level of Melee gameplay which has an age of seven+ years...

and this:

Do you just assume I have not played Melee because I am in favor of Brawl? I've been a member of a Smash Brothers group since the Melee early days. I've organized seven tournaments and have attended several state/local and foreign Melee tournaments

And still, everyone just assumes I am jumping right in here to talk crap. Why didn't you just ask something like "First of all, have you ever played Melee?" or something along those lines? It's not like I assume you have never played Brawl/ you are a scrub for being against Brawl. But it seems easier for you guys to prove your points by just misinterpreting my words/ignoring me/ calling me ignorant. And I thought this thread was here to debate. Did you guys expect all pro-Brawlers to just come in here to agree or magically convert their beliefs to yours? This is just pathetic. Look:

I thought we were all going to ignore xerampelinae >_> Wtf is a xerampelinae anyway?

That just makes me believe that anyone who argues that Brawl is competitive will automatically be bashed or ignored.
Then you just satire me as a "an obnoxious lolspeaking noob." Well at least I don't have to satire you as "an obnoxious lolspeaking noob:"

Oh and according to Xerampelinae's logic, the biggest "competitive game" would be the lottery! Cuz OMGZORZ there's SOOOO many people trying to win that it's the greatest competitive game evar!!! OMG LOLZZ!!!!!11

Doesn't that seem like the classic "obnoxious lolspeaking noob?"

But, seriously, I hope that this thread DOES have some dabate on it and not just a bunch of skeptical thoughts or off-topic spam. Actually, there was a particular post that was getting VERY IN-TOPIC as far is this thread is concerned. But everyone ignored him/her. I hope that this post gets the attention it needs and actually gets this thread going somewhere. Good luck on your thred, Scar.
Now, I have really NOTHING more to say about this thread. I won't make a post here again. As such, if you have any concerns regarding this or any post in this thread, be a real person and PM me.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

^ lol.

10lols


edit: you can satire anything. you also can carry the postmodern concept (which can also be applied to anything) to the point of postpostmodern and even postpostpostpostpostmodern, actually.

and most people practice it every day without realizing it. our society in general is postmodern, even postpost or postpostpost according to some people at this point.

edit #2: and somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that concept fall under the umbrella of common knowledge?

 

[BIG C]

To Xerampaline or w/e:

your posts in general are worded badly and people aren't misinterpreting anything, the way you wrote "No I am not ignorant to high level melee play" in no way, shape, or form makes anyone believe you played melee competitively you may have known about it but where is the proof of you knowing about or playing it? I could say that I am the best Brawl player in the world but, with no proof no one would believe me. People know me and know I played melee so I could say I know about melee or I can use examples from melee to stress the point that I know about the game maybe you should try that out. The way you speak of melee makes people think you haven't played.

and your competition theory was quite flawed in the fact you didn't include that it involved skill you just said "Competitive value depends on how many people want to prove themselves in a certain area by competing." the way that is worded makes bovine's lotto analogy work quite well. I think you are misinterpreting what you said or not elaborating as much as you should to get your point across. Please try harder next time.

 

[thumbswayup]

I think this thread just got interesting again.

*eats popcorn

 

[Ills]

Srsly guise, everyone knows why people hate brawl.

We're a bunch of generally sexually challenged nerds with a majority of the users here yet to see a ***** in there entire lives.
And the real object of the hate?

Zero Suit Samus.

Look at her. Go on, just look at her. Is she masturbating material or not? Even non-gamers will tell you she's hot.

But Sakurai spited the smashers by making her only available with like Final Smash. Now, we've been playing without items for a while now and this is just unfair to some people. More to others. The kind you see hating brawl is the kind that are very pissed the one chance they even got at even virtual vag, and the FS just blew it.

 

[Zankoku]

Actually, you just hold R and then press Start at the beginning to get zoom in controls.

 

[Samochan]

Actually, you just hold R and then press Start at the beginning to get zoom in controls.

Illis 0 - Ankoku 1.

 

[Avalon262]

Srsly guise, everyone knows why people hate brawl.

We're a bunch of generally sexually challenged nerds with a majority of the users here yet to see a ***** in there entire lives.
And the real object of the hate?

Zero Suit Samus.

Look at her. Go on, just look at her. Is she masturbating material or not? Even non-gamers will tell you she's hot.

But Sakurai spited the smashers by making her only available with like Final Smash. Now, we've been playing without items for a while now and this is just unfair to some people. More to others. The kind you see hating brawl is the kind that are very pissed the one chance they even got at even virtual vag, and the FS just blew it.

You do realize that you can use ZSS by holding R when you select Samus and you can also switch to her by doing Samus taunt in a specific order.

Also your post is so random that the only thing I got from it is the fact that you need to get your *** of this forum and get laid asap.

 

[thumbswayup]

Srsly guise, everyone knows why people hate brawl.

We're a bunch of generally sexually challenged nerds with a majority of the users here yet to see a ***** in there entire lives.
And the real object of the hate?

Zero Suit Samus.

Look at her. Go on, just look at her. Is she masturbating material or not? Even non-gamers will tell you she's hot.

But Sakurai spited the smashers by making her only available with like Final Smash. Now, we've been playing without items for a while now and this is just unfair to some people. More to others. The kind you see hating brawl is the kind that are very pissed the one chance they even got at even virtual vag, and the FS just blew it.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but.....zamus isn't a real person. She's a fictional character created in the Metroid series. I'm sorry, bro, your jerk off fantasies will stay jerk off fantasies. You will not be able to have sex with her because she does not exist, nor has she ever existed in this world. Don't hate me because I'm the only one who would tell you this. You'll have to actually leave your mother's basement to get laid. No, she will never come to life and have sex with you. Get over it, we all have. But the good news is there are plenty of hentai sites filled with pics and vids of her getting it on with another animated dude (no, he's not real either) made especially for sexually deprived nerds such as yourself. So seek them out, and hope one day you'll actually get a life.

 

[Corigames]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but.....zamus isn't a real person. She's a fictional character created in the Metroid series. I'm sorry, bro, your jerk off fantasies will stay jerk off fantasies. You will not be able to have sex with her because she does not exist, nor has she ever existed in this world. Don't hate me because I'm the only one who would tell you this. You'll have to actually leave your mother's basement to get laid. No, she will never come to life and have sex with you. Get over it, we all have. But the good news is there are plenty of hentai sites filled with pics and vids of her getting it on with another animated dude (no, he's not real either) made especially for sexually deprived nerds such as yourself. So seek them out, and hope one day you'll actually get a life.

Uh... I hate to break this to YOU, but I'm getting married to her. On July 4th at 2pm we are going to be at the Northburrow Chapel. And yes, she does **** like a tiger.

I hope you get a life one day instead of trying to make fun of people saying that hot people are hot.

 

[Winston]

Lol. Illis' post was hilarious.

T_T at people insulting him because they take it seriously...

 

[SuperRacoon]

I want to point right now that Nintendo had intended to make Brawl more casual then Melee.
They sell more copies to a much larger audience.
More imprtantly, we need to consider Brawl's potential. Brawl is a much larger game then Melee was, so it should be expected that it will take more time for competitive play to evolve. There were a large number of changes made for brawl, some of them huge!
I believe Brawl will be as competitive as Melee soon enough, the style will be very different though.

 

[shrinkray21]

I want to point right now that Nintendo had intended to make Brawl more casual then Melee.
They sell more copies to a much larger audience.
More imprtantly, we need to consider Brawl's potential. Brawl is a much larger game then Melee was, so it should be expected that it will take more time for competitive play to evolve. There were a large number of changes made for brawl, some of them huge!
I believe Brawl will be as competitive as Melee soon enough, the style will be very different though.

While there are many people that would agree with you, this is the wrong place to make that statement - b/c of the people that agree with you, most of them aren't in this forum.

However, I'm on your side - and i'm not surprised or angry that the brawl programmers wanted to fix their coding...glitches make the people that made the game look bad...just b/c the glitches made the game more competative doesn't make the programmers any happier about it.

 

[curiousthoughtsbear]

I'm seriously baffled as to how anyone likes Brawl or why they continue to play it. Just cuz it's a new smash game doesn't mean its a good game and also does not imply that there is more to it than initial appearances. Brawl may very well be a shallow game with a limited degree of re-playability.

If Brawl were released after SSB64 then I very much doubt that the 3rd game of the series would have enjoyed as much popularity as Brawl has. It is because Brawl came after Melee and SSB64 that it holds such a spell over this community.

All these hypothetical arguments and no real proof to back the stuff up. Isn't that the whole Brawl vs. Melee argument ??? What nonsense ......................


If you really want to know the approval rating of the games, concerning members of SWF, then an elaborate poll should be taken. Analysis should be done by categorically dividing contributing members of the poll by join date/post count/tourney showings/a simple test concerning the specifics of Melee. Former competency in Melee will lend itself to the legitimacy of any given member's vote and thus we will be able to know at last whether Brawl is a more popular game among the educated/proficient, not just the masses.

 

[arrowhead]

I want to point right now that Nintendo had intended to make Brawl more casual then Melee.
They sell more copies to a much larger audience.
More imprtantly, we need to consider Brawl's potential. Brawl is a much larger game then Melee was, so it should be expected that it will take more time for competitive play to evolve. There were a large number of changes made for brawl, some of them huge!
I believe Brawl will be as competitive as Melee soon enough, the style will be very different though.

keeping the game's competitive edge does NOT retract from casual play at ALL. your argument is null. and all of the huge changes made in brawl was made to make the game less competitive

While there are many people that would agree with you, this is the wrong place to make that statement - b/c of the people that agree with you, most of them aren't in this forum.

However, I'm on your side - and i'm not surprised or angry that the brawl programmers wanted to fix their coding...glitches make the people that made the game look bad...just b/c the glitches made the game more competative doesn't make the programmers any happier about it.

oh well why don't you name all the glitches in melee then (wavedashing isn't a glitch)? yeah, i know. there aren't that many. but what's wrong with using glitches to make a game more competitive anyways? the intended way to use something isn't always the best way. take gunpowder for example: it was discovered while trying to make an immortality drink. and as a last note, you do realize most of the noobs that claim melee's glitches made the game worse are praising brawl tech discoveries. i hope you aren't one of them.

 

[thumbswayup]

I hope you get a life one day instead of trying to make fun of people saying that hot people are hot.

Take a joke man. I never said she wasn't hot.

 

[The Executive]

If you really want to know the approval rating of the games, concerning members of SWF, then an elaborate poll should be taken. Analysis should be done by categorically dividing contributing members of the poll by join date/post count/tourney showings/a simple test concerning the specifics of Melee. Former competency in Melee will lend itself to the legitimacy of any given member's vote and thus we will be able to know at last whether Brawl is a more popular game among the educated/proficient, not just the masses.

Where does the USB Gecko project fit in? Is there an option for that? I'd vote for competitive Brawl over Melee or current Brawl.

 

[SamDvds]

While there are many people that would agree with you, this is the wrong place to make that statement - b/c of the people that agree with you, most of them aren't in this forum.

However, I'm on your side - and i'm not surprised or angry that the brawl programmers wanted to fix their coding...glitches make the people that made the game look bad...just b/c the glitches made the game more competative doesn't make the programmers any happier about it.

u should be happy to know that the game testers for brawl actually left alot of the glitches in on purpose (and the broken glitches i might add). testers discovered laser locking a month before the game came out. they discovered the infinate grab on ness and lucas. they discovered DDD's chain grab, and that the IC's have an ice block lock just like the laser lock. they found snake's rediculous hitbox for his up tilt, that hits people even while theyre grabbing the ledge. how do i know this? a couple guys from the west coast who are playing with our crew (stlouis) for the summer are studying to become game developers and they have a friend who was on the brawl testing team. they were showing me all these stuipid crazy glitches that i havent even seen yet, and thier friend on the brawl testing team said they knew about all the gay **** in the game, but at that point they only cared enough to fix anything that would crash the game.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Proof plz

 

[derek.haines]

While there are many people that would agree with you, this is the wrong place to make that statement - b/c of the people that agree with you, most of them aren't in this forum.

However, I'm on your side - and i'm not surprised or angry that the brawl programmers wanted to fix their coding...glitches make the people that made the game look bad...just b/c the glitches made the game more competative doesn't make the programmers any happier about it.

Shrinkray gained a level!

Great comment.

 

[arrowhead]

Shrinkray gained a level!

Great comment.

your signature explains your lack of intelligence

 

[Vulcan55]

The definition of competitive that has received the most support is the innate property of a game allowing better players to win consistently.

WTF? This has nothing to do with competition or competitiveness. This sounds more like a definition of consistency. Competitiveness is the amount at which you can compete. Competition is a struggle between multiple individuals (or groups, I suppose) fighting for a common reward. Changing the definition of words to support you pro-melee argument is no better than these "blanket statements" or this argument (vvv) (which I find completely valid, using the REAL definition (or those close to it) of competition)

The argument "I think any game can be competitive" is no longer valid. It is clear that you are simply saying, "people can compete in any game." It is also clear that this statement points out plain fact.

Using the real definition of competition, the above statement is certifiably valid, as both games are competitive. Wether you enjoy competing in that perticular game is besides the point.
If we replace the word competitive with, consistent, you get a non-valid answer. NOT all games are consistent.

Your definition of competition if VERY skewed.
so skewed in fact, it supports virtually all pro-melee arguments and nullifies pro-brawl ones.
In reality, competition is nothing similar to your made-up definition.
jsut because it has "support" does not make it correct, either.

 

[arrowhead]

WTF? This has nothing to do with competition or competitiveness. This sounds more like a definition of consistency. Competitiveness is the amount at which you can compete. Competition is a struggle between multiple individuals (or groups, I suppose) fighting for a common reward. Changing the definition of words to support you pro-melee argument is no better than these "blanket statements" or this argument (vvv) (which I find completely valid, using the REAL definition (or those close to it) of competition)


Using the real definition of competition, the above statement is certifiably valid, as both games are competitive. Wether you enjoy competing in that perticular game is besides the point.
If we replace the word competitive with, consistent, you get a non-valid answer. NOT all games are consistent.

Your definition of competition if VERY skewed.
so skewed in fact, it supports virtually all pro-melee arguments and nullifies pro-brawl ones.
In reality, competition is nothing similar to your made-up definition.
jsut because it has "support" does not make it correct, either.

words can have more than one definition. the "real" definition is also the one scar provided. it just applies to a different context

why would you want to play an inconsistent game?

 

[Pink Reaper]

WTF? This has nothing to do with competition or competitiveness. This sounds more like a definition of consistency. Competitiveness is the amount at which you can compete. Competition is a struggle between multiple individuals (or groups, I suppose) fighting for a common reward. Changing the definition of words to support you pro-melee argument is no better than these "blanket statements" or this argument (vvv) (which I find completely valid, using the REAL definition (or those close to it) of competition)


Using the real definition of competition, the above statement is certifiably valid, as both games are competitive. Wether you enjoy competing in that perticular game is besides the point.
If we replace the word competitive with, consistent, you get a non-valid answer. NOT all games are consistent.

Your definition of competition if VERY skewed.
so skewed in fact, it supports virtually all pro-melee arguments and nullifies pro-brawl ones.
In reality, competition is nothing similar to your made-up definition.
jsut because it has "support" does not make it correct, either.

Alright, let me re-state something I said a while back: Even if you want to use this definition, YOUR definition that "Everything is competitive" the next step is to address how well any given game fits the competitive mold, which Brawl doesn't do very well. Brawl was made NOT to work for competition, melee was made neutral to competition.

 

[Vulcan55]

words can have more than one definition.

I agree, although inventing one to support your argument makes it opinion, not fact.

the "real" definition is also the one scar provided.

I strongly disagree.

Brawl was made NOT to work for competition, melee was made neutral to competition.

only if you use your (imo) messed up definition.
it's a fighting game, you play against others, you try to win, that makes it competitive.

 

[arrowhead]

I agree, although inventing one to support your argument makes it opinion, not fact.

I strongly disagree.

all we are doing is tethering a new definition to an already existing word. if you know our definition and understand the context of the conversation, why does the word we use matter? the meaning will still be exactly the same.

your opinion doesn't count by the way

 

[Vulcan55]

all we are doing is tethering a new definition to an already existing word.

ok, so why? there's nothing wrong with the old one that's been around forever.

if you know our definition and understand the context of the conversation, why does the word we use matter? the meaning will still be exactly the same.

it's not the word I'm concerned with, it's the way you define it.

your opinion doesn't count by the way

I would like to know why you think that.

 

[SuperRacoon]

The simple proof that Brawl will be as competive as Melee is in the fact that after two months people are still playing it almost daily. There was this same general argument in the Halo community when going from Halo to Halo 2.
But, it really comes down to weather a majority of Smash players stay with Brawl or return to Melee. More to the point, if Brawl does replace Melee on the wider scene, then the opinions of top Melee players are no longer valid.

This discussion really won't go anywhere because really lust amounts to one sides opinion against the other.