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Scar talks Lean Melee [2012YotF]

JonnyW

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Messages
717
Location
Portland OR
She can throw the turnip at you to stop your approach or make you catch a turnip instead of doing an aerial.

:phone:
Do you accidentally grab turnips in the air? cause that never happens to me. You can literally nair through turnips. Falcons legs will knock them out of the way and they wont hit you.
 

BigD!!!

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
1,833
z catches in the air, unless you run up to her and try to jab or aerial with z you wont be catching items

s2j, peach can do aerials while floating while holding turnips, but only if shes actually floating, not while falling/jumping
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
ic

im trying to do things with peaches turnip after i shield --> z grab it

too bad u can't do aerials while holding turnip u could do some crazy stuff
 

Windrose

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 22, 2009
Messages
1,470
i dunno the frame data, but it doesn't seem long.

I know peach can only throw her turnip in a couple of directions but it feels like it really restricts my movement and it gives her ability to zone you out with fc fairs and turnips.

(and yeah i use nair with z sometimes cuz uhh....i dunno it really just varies between z and a)
 

Wenbobular

Smash Hero
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
5,744
the best singular piece of advice I've read on this entire forum the past month is to play falcon like a low tier character
as in not rushing in because im not herp derp broken offense falco or fox
Nair and late knees are great pressure moves and Falcon's shuffle distance covers half of Battlefield, he's actually pretty good at approaching if you do it smartly

(Most) Low tiers that try to do approaching aerials get stomp double kneed into oblivion :bee:
 

Scar

#HarveyDent
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Feb 11, 2007
Messages
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Sunnyvale, CA
good stuff on peach, i literally get hit by dash attack all day, and overextend and get hit by her extremely fast nair and then get edgeguarded at really low %s

@wenbo, scarjump edgeguards are actually extremely strong, especially vs marth, falco, and low tiers... uair from below is always a really amazing move, plus invincibility, plus your double jump
 

Wenbobular

Smash Hero
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
5,744
Ok fine it's not useless haha
I just think efforts could be better spent developing other parts of your Falcon technical game instead of learning a stage specific trick
Especially because I feel like I see comments about how to do *insert random thing here* when the comment I think I make the most in video critiques is "your Falcon moves slow, be faster out of everything"
 

Citizen Snips

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 9, 2010
Messages
475
Location
Yardley PA
@wenbo, scarjump edgeguards are actually extremely strong, especially vs marth, falco, and low tiers... uair from below is always a really amazing move, plus invincibility, plus your double jump
Wouldn't you only keep your double jump if you doraki? That only really works consistently on Yoshi's, and Yoshi's vs. Marth is bad news bears imo
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
the best thing i can do with turnip atm is just z-drop it then aerial or do w/e i don't think throwing it directly is that amazing
 

Juushichi

sugoi ~ sugoi ~
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Columbus, Ohio
I was actually just about to say that, lol.

Yeah, in most of my experience (brawl, dealing with gay diddy banana ****) you're best just to z-drop an item. Granted, with Falcon's mobility you might be able to play keep away for a little bit in order to use it... but you might not want to since he's got nasty rushdown and pressure.

I'd say z-drop a turnip on Peach's sheild or something, but you'll probably get naired for it unless it's a FH.
 

Windrose

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 22, 2009
Messages
1,470
What do you guys do against peach's jab when she fc's an aerial?

Is there very little lag in her jabs that hse can follow up and I can't punish her? I feel like her jab shouldn't be that good cuz it's not like the gentlemen and can be used as a pseudo shine.
 

Nakamaru

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 10, 2006
Messages
3,798
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Far far into the stars
If you're fast enough you can grab her after the jab. That is assuming they are grabbing or doing anything but running away.

You can also eat the jab, sdi up and jump out of the pressure. I haven't actually done this but I've been wanting to test it out. If they grab you can fall with an arial or just run away and get stage control back.

Her jab is good but it is only good for shield pressure because of the frame advantage FCing gives her off of her arials. If she had to Lcancel like everyone else then it wouldn't be as scary.

:phone:
 

Winston

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 13, 2006
Messages
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Location
Seattle, WA (slightly north of U-District)
After Peach's first jab, you can shieldgrab any action except for a second jab. Most peaches will do the second jab.

There's enough lag after the second jab that you can shieldgrab that guaranteed, so in general I would recommend you wait for the second one and shieldgrab that.

You could also try shieldgrabbing the first jab while holding down, then CC grabbing when you get hit by the second jab.
 

Scar

#HarveyDent
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Sunnyvale, CA
I just think efforts could be better spent developing other parts of your Falcon technical game instead of learning a stage specific trick
yeah if you aren't good at the game yet, you should work on that first.

Wouldn't you only keep your double jump if you doraki? That only really works consistently on Yoshi's, and Yoshi's vs. Marth is bad news bears imo
the only purpose of scarjump is to keep your double jump. and if you want to play marth on FoD then go for it, they're both difficult (and stage rules are moving towards no bans, for reasons I can't explain)
 

bertbusdriver

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 8, 2007
Messages
883
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Norcal
What things should i focus on as a double falcon team? Just started practicing with my roommate for SMYM yesterday. We've been practicing mostly 2v1 situations so far since we don't have a 4th smasher in the apartment. There isn't much reference video to look at besides old scar/hax vids, but those vids don't show a whole lot in the way of doubles tactics.
 

Scar

#HarveyDent
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yeah, in general there's little you can do that wouldn't be helpful here

look at general teams strats, how do falcons play in teams (separate, together), how to edgeguard and how to get kills (falcon's 2 weaknesses)
 

Windrose

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 22, 2009
Messages
1,470
What things should i focus on as a double falcon team? Just started practicing with my roommate for SMYM yesterday. We've been practicing mostly 2v1 situations so far since we don't have a 4th smasher in the apartment. There isn't much reference video to look at besides old scar/hax vids, but those vids don't show a whole lot in the way of doubles tactics.
Practice getting the grab stomp/knee combos from both sides. 1) when your ally grabs the opponent and he is facing towards you.
2) when your ally grabs and your ally's back is facing towards you. (the harder situation)

Practice so you never hit your ally with knees and stomps when your ally grabs an opponent.

Practice kneeing off your ally's knee combos on your opponent.

Practice stomp -->knee, uthrow--> knee combos @ lower percents that don't connect when it's only one falcon but works when there's two falcons.
 

Zhea

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 10, 2012
Messages
962
Location
San Antonio Texas
Hey all,

Got a few more questions, this time on the technical side of things. One thing that really got drilled home during the first tournament I went to was that my hands were slow. I have been attempting to speed up my hands to speed up my parts of my play like shffls. To do this I have been trying to tap/push my controller buttons lighter so that I don't spend as much time releasing or pressing before going to the next button. Was this something you all incorporated into your play when getting faster or did you take a different approach?

Now for a logistics question. Is using the Y button and the c-stick a practical way to execute (referring to Hax's post that is currently in the training guide compendium here ) instant uairs? I currently use c-stick for all smashes/directional aerials and Y as my goto jump button, but when practicing I wasn't sure if this was cutting it ( this might be because of the above problem ).

Thanks.

Also Windrose, that gif is mesmerizing.
 

Windrose

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 22, 2009
Messages
1,470
The best way to hold a controller, theoretically , is the claw method.

However, we haven't reached a point yet in skill level of the players where how you hold a controller makes a difference.

There's a lot of inefficiency when playing non claw style that currently is neglected because people aren't at a level that requires clawing to be at the competitive advantage. But I think if you want to get ahead of the game and have less restrictions on your technical abilities while playing, then play claw style.

I also believe playing claw style gives your controller a longer life span because you're not mashing any particular button or c-stick really hard.
 

Wenbobular

Smash Hero
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
5,744
Claw makes it harder to grab though, you don't have access to Z ... besides it's not like Falcon is so technical that you need to claw to up your tech skill, it's more useful for spacies IMO and only for certain things (main one I can really think of is JC upsmash, though I guess it makes it slightly easier to hit shine after aerials)

I don't really think there's a point to learning a weird new style of holding the controller if you're used to how to play regularly (although someone who's never touched a GC controller picking up Melee I could see an argument for learning claw)
 

Windrose

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 22, 2009
Messages
1,470
You have access to z, r, a/b, y, c stick all at the same time when you are clawing.


theoretically, claw is the most efficient way to play that allows you to do everything with ease. There is a lot of inefficiency in the normal way that most of us play including myself that is currently over come by just being fast but that is also cuz people are still kinda bad at melee imo.

:phone:
 

tarheeljks

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 18, 2006
Messages
1,857
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land of the free
idk, at this point it's not just a question of whether it's better (assuming it is), but also how much. players are not starting from square one. there will probably be lots of proactive interference to the point that it may only merit switching if not using the claw severely limits the ability to execute important commands reliably. the opportunity cost is also likely to be high. that's not to say it's impossible to break the mold if you aren't starting from scratch, i've been playing around w/it myself tbh, but it may not be worth the time*. if javi had run circles around lovage or something then it would be a different story

* example, the qwerty keyboard layout is considered to be suboptimal, but few of us will be bailing on it for the dvorak layout b/c most of us do not have time to relearn how to type
 

Nakamaru

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 10, 2006
Messages
3,798
Location
Far far into the stars
Well, i dont think a character like falcon needs the claw. Falco, fox, peach, and the characters with tighter timings could make use of it.

But falcon doesn't really have many techs that need such control. Not like shine shenanigans or float canceling.

Just how i see it.
 

Dan -Zodiac-

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 10, 2011
Messages
149
Location
South Jersey
i think its good enough to learn to do certain things with a claw, but not play with it the whole time. like ive seen multiple marth players bring their index finger down to the y button when they are on the offensive and are going to need to aerial immediately out of jump/second jump.

for falcon, i have been wondering if i should claw while needing to do extremely fast uair(s). since bring the thumb from x to up on the c stick is the slowest one to pull off. actually, anyone got any tips on doing uairs faster? lol
 

Zhea

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 10, 2012
Messages
962
Location
San Antonio Texas
i think its good enough to learn to do certain things with a claw, but not play with it the whole time. like ive seen multiple marth players bring their index finger down to the y button when they are on the offensive and are going to need to aerial immediately out of jump/second jump.

for falcon, i have been wondering if i should claw while needing to do extremely fast uair(s). since bring the thumb from x to up on the c stick is the slowest one to pull off. actually, anyone got any tips on doing uairs faster? lol
Hooray! We might actually get back to my question!
 

Nakamaru

Smash Master
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Messages
3,798
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Far far into the stars
for instant Uairs i use X + Control stick + the Z button. Or Y + Control stick + A button.

It is a little tricky, but once you get the rhythm down it is a lot more consistant than using the c-stick. (for me at least)
 

adechrist

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
64
Location
Eugene, Oregon
I use the claw 100% of the time. It's pretty nice because while other people have to take the time to learn the best way to do certain techniques, or practice finger speed. All I have to do is learn the timing of things. Claw helps a lot more when playing more technical characters, but it definitely helps with every character because it makes every tech skill easier. This means less time practicing tech skills alone in your room, and less concentration on tech skills during matches.
 

Scar

#HarveyDent
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Feb 11, 2007
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Sunnyvale, CA
Zhea, if you ask me, the more you try to do and the more you play, the faster you'll get. Muscle memory is a big part of speeding up your hands (think about typing). First you need to practice the specific moves, and be able to do them quickly. If you notice you can't do something in quick succession, try practicing it over and over, and tightening up the timing. See if you can go faster than you're doing it currently. Often times, tech skill errors are a result of pressing buttons *too* quickly.

And regarding claw, if you can do everything you need to do without clawing, then it's not important. The way you hold a controller is a means to an end, and in the end whatever you're most comfortable with is what you're going to do best with. The oft-cited Isai never used cstick, and you saw how technically he could play.
 

Zhea

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
962
Location
San Antonio Texas
Alright, this is all good stuff. I also had a discussion about fast hands with Kwan yesterday and learned some very interesting things about how the human brain works. I'll have to see if I can find a definitive article to point people at, but I'll try to share what I learned because I think it can be one of the single best pieces of advice you can give someone trying to improve their tech skill ( I'll also see if I can get him to chip in on this later).

So first a quick disclaimer before diving into this: Muscle Memory is a kind of a misnomer. The signal/information used to trigger specific chains of muscle responses does not reside in the muscle. For more on this read through: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_memory ( Note this article also talks a lot about what I am going to talk about ).

Would a guitarist with years of experience coming into Guitar Hero be any better than a novice guitarist? I mean he should be right? He has fast fingers and can read through sheet music at a good speed, so since he has the two skills nailed down he should be golden right? Wrong.

The guitarist won't be any faster than the novice, because the guitarists "Muscle Memory" relies on shifting his fingers through different cords, not pressing down 5 buttons in a vertical line. Most dextrous tasks actually have nothing to do with building your hands muscles, but practicing the motions again and again. To extrapolate on this, you will not get faster at smash or faster at being a guitarists from being fast at the other ( Yeah I know, there goes my dreams of rock stardom too ).

"Muscle Memory" is actually the packaging together of simple motor actions to be executed in ordered succession without conscious effort. Once you have mastered the wave dash you don't think tap-Y lightly, hold control stick in a direction and slightly down then press l button. You think I want to wave dash left or right and then your brain sends that packaged command to your hands, which then execute them. This is why stroke victims often need to relearn basic motor skills, that set of commands you learn as a baby to walk and pick up things becomes fuzzy ( more science regarding what happens to memories when your brain is damaged, not going to get into it now ), and you have to recommit it to memory. You can also overwrite old "Muscle Memory" with new ones, like when relearning your key binds in an MMO after you redo them. Learning claw could count for this if you stopped using normal control style all together ( which good luck with that not that it would impede you learning the claw ).

The cool part of all of this? The more you do this the better you get at molding your "Muscle Memory". If you feel like you pick up characters or new tricks faster now then you did at the beginning of your smash career, it's because of this. I am blanking on the name, but there is a comic book artist who suffered a stroke midway through his career and had to relearn how to draw, but he was able to come back from the basics much faster because of this.

Here is the TLDR: The only way to get better at tech skill is to practice, and not just practice the skill, but practice doing it perfectly. Drill yourself on how to do it again and again. If you want to get faster at learning new tech, learn more tech and you will get better at learning it.

Basically, what Scar said is correct, just practice with whatever control is comfortable for you and you will eventually reach the speed you want. Mind you experimenting and finding a control style you like will also help you simply because you will be more comfortable with it.

If you are interested in the topic there is a book out called The Brain That Changes Itself: http://www.normandoidge.com/normandoidge/MAIN.html with more on this subject.
 

Kwan

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Messages
50
Just to clarify the core of what I was saying to Zhea, perceived physical limitations of dexterity are often manifestations of the mind. You don't need to train the muscles in your fingers, you need to train your brain to manipulate them. 100% agree that you just need to keep practicing until you get it.
 
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