SCOTU's Frame Data Q&A + Request Thread

[Emblem Lord]

Pillaring is shield grab bait.

They just have to time it.

 

[Magus420]

Pillaring is shield grab bait.

They just have to time it.

And be using characters that can reach high enough with their grab. ^^

 

[SCOTU]

or usmash out of shield. or up-b. Personally, i like killing falcos (when being marth) by baiting them to pillar, then dolphin slashing their ***. Since they're going to be FFing it, They're going to be DIing downward. Kills really low (mid 70%s) when done that way. Not to mention it hits on frame 5, so is faster than a shield grab, and is invulnerable on frame 5. Also, usmashing out of shield will work with many characters if you do it immediately after the shine. Many characters can reach high enough with their grab. I know fox can, dunno how much shorter they can be and still grab. But fox is pretty short.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth is beast.

Regular upb or reverse upb?

 

[brawlpro]

reverse up-b is "flashier..."

 

[SCOTU]

it's not any flashier, it just guarantees the tip will hit. (giving argument that the non-reverse is flashier)

I'd use the Reverse if they were right on top of you, else, use the normal. I suppose the reverse would always work though. (not sure which has longer range if there ranges are different). I just do the forward one if they're not extremely close to me. else, i do reverse.

 

[SCOTU]

i added a section on stuff that's not really frame data, but is still kind of important. I started with what % peach's CC breaks to fox's nair.

 

[Pasqual]

Just as an organizational thing, but you may want to restructure the first post a little. One size of font with different colors or something, so there's less scrolling. Por ejemplo:

--Falco's SHDL?!?!--
Guess what? He can't.
The first laser comes out 13 frames into his airborneness. The second laser would come out 16 frames later, or frame 29. Falco's SH Air time (w/o FF) is only 25 frames. So no. Once and for all, Falco cannot SHDL (on level ground).

 

[SCOTU]

hmm... interesting....
I left them in quote for so that each block of stuff is easily differentiable, and in quotes so that you can link to the original post where it was brought up/ discusses, since many things came up elsewhere on the forum, but it is somewhat difficult to navigate, i'll look into it.

 

[Pasqual]

You could still leave the data/info itself in quotes, with the titles like what I posted up there. Another possibility would be to just put the link to the post directly in the title.

Oh, apparently you can't alter the color of a hyperlink. Hm.

--Falco's SHDL?!?!--

Guess what? He can't.
The first laser comes out 13 frames into his airborneness. The second laser would come out 16 frames later, or frame 29. Falco's SH Air time (w/o FF) is only 25 frames. So no. Once and for all, Falco cannot SHDL (on level ground).

 

[Zankoku]

Yes, you can. Put the color tags inside the link tags.

 

[Pasqual]

Ahh, thanks Ankoku.

--Falco's SHDL?!?!--

Guess what? He can't.
The first laser comes out 13 frames into his airborneness. The second laser would come out 16 frames later, or frame 29. Falco's SH Air time (w/o FF) is only 25 frames. So no. Once and for all, Falco cannot SHDL (on level ground).

 

[SCOTU]

how exactly is that different from what i have now other than it uses color instead of big text? The big text clearly differentiates section and title.

 

[Pasqual]

It's just a preference thing, really. I'm someone who dislikes using large text in that way. But whatever, it's your thread, I was just making an observation.

 

[SCOTU]

I do want to reformat it, i'm just not sure how. I guess i could orgainze it and color code it. I dunno. I'll have to drag it into notepad and deal with it.

 

[Retroking2000]

this should be a sticky come on moderators

 

[SCOTU]

Back At school now, so i can start going online more now that i'm done unpacking. I'll answer **** a bit later.

 

[jacobrhcp]

how come scotu isn't a broomer? He seems quite knowledgeable >_>

 

[GamerGuitarist7]

I do not think anyone else has asked this, but how many dairs and shines in a pillar as falco does it take to break a FULL shield if you start with the dair.

 

[jacobrhcp]

scotu, as to your public service announcement,



would pillaring be usefull if you sh aerial, land at someones back, shine, rejump, aerial, shine... I think it can't be shieldgrabbed, because turning around usually takes like 5 frames if I remember right >_>... so he can't really shieldgrab. I think I've seen PC do that too... but could be mistaken.

 

[ArcNatural]

scotu, as to your public service announcement,



would pillaring be usefull if you sh aerial, land at someones back, shine, rejump, aerial, shine... I think it can't be shieldgrabbed, because turning around usually takes like 5 frames if I remember right >_>... so he can't really shieldgrab. I think I've seen PC do that too... but could be mistaken.

While this isn't a frame data question, I'll answer it. The only way you can get grabbed out of a pillar is if you do the dair too early. As long as you do the dair late you shouldn't get shield grabbed. So in this case the only thing most characters can do is roll or spotdodge. So really any direction of pillaring will prevent you from getting shieldgrabbed if you do it correctly.

 

[SCOTU]

I do not think anyone else has asked this, but how many dairs and shines in a pillar as falco does it take to break a FULL shield if you start with the dair.

Not 100% sure, but i believe that it's 4 iterations. (as a general rule, you need to damage 100% on their shield - and then count every 2 frames of non-shield stun as 1%).

scotu, as to your public service announcement,



would pillaring be usefull if you sh aerial, land at someones back, shine, rejump, aerial, shine... I think it can't be shieldgrabbed, because turning around usually takes like 5 frames if I remember right >_>... so he can't really shieldgrab. I think I've seen PC do that too... but could be mistaken.

It's not because of shieldgrabbing, it's about escaping/ punishing. A jc usmash/ up-b will still hit you. And it's still easy to roll out of.

While this isn't a frame data question, I'll answer it. The only way you can get grabbed out of a pillar is if you do the dair too early. As long as you do the dair late you shouldn't get shield grabbed. So in this case the only thing most characters can do is roll or spotdodge. So really any direction of pillaring will prevent you from getting shieldgrabbed if you do it correctly.

No. No matter how you pillar, you can be shieldgrabbed. It IS position dependant.

 

[1048576]

Can you please provide frame data showing how Wobbling works using f-tilt and d-tilt. I think I may have been spreading false info around the IC forums, and I need some confirmation on something.

 

[Junpappy]

At low percentages, with Falco against other space animals, is there a time frame in which you can get your shine out before their shine after their shuffled dair if it's performed correctly?

 

[SCOTU]

@ Raging: if you're talking about about if you're hit with the dair, then no. If you CC'd the dair, then no, if you shielded the dair, then yes, no, wait, no. no, you can't.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

K, so I have a couple of questions:
I've heard that being in a grab reduces knockback when hit by another attack. If so, how much?
And also, I've seen forward do jab cancels, but instead of just jab->crouch->jab, he sometimes did: jab->dtilt->jab. Does that have any advantages over regular jab canceling?

 

[SCOTU]

the jab cancel things are personal preference if you prefer to jab cancel over jab dtilting, go ahead, they're just different options.

if you're being held the knockback on a move is reduced by about 25%. The grabber has no such benefit.

 

[SCOTU]

A quick Public Service Announcement

I've released images detailing how characters grab the edge, including from how far away/ below the edge they can. Also included is the physics engine's view of the stages.

 

[Jihnsius]

Few questions regarding turnips physics.
There's a way to get two turnips to overlap hitboxes and continuously rise until the end of their normal lifespan time. It's done by up-throwing one, pull another, and then up-throw one slightly to the side of the hitbox of the one coming down. My questions are this: Do the hitbox "rebuffers" allow for the turnips to hit a character more than once, as seen in the black hole glitch? Also, do you think it would be possible for a character to grab one without being hit by the other?

 

[SCOTU]

Few questions regarding turnips physics.
There's a way to get two turnips to overlap hitboxes and continuously rise until the end of their normal lifespan time. It's done by up-throwing one, pull another, and then up-throw one slightly to the side of the hitbox of the one coming down. My questions are this: Do the hitbox "rebuffers" allow for the turnips to hit a character more than once, as seen in the black hole glitch? Also, do you think it would be possible for a character to grab one without being hit by the other?

I've seen peaches throw one turnip upward, then pull another, then jump and drop the second as the first falls into it. then they do what you described. Also, is it possible to get a mod to delete the above spam post?

 

[Jihnsius]

Yeah, dropping it would probably do the same thing since all the glitch involves is two overlapping turnip hitboxes. Anyhow, question still pending. I'll try to test it myself.

 

[robyextreme]

Scout is like our forum M2K.

Thanks for links, big help.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Bumpage for great justice!

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Bump with a question: With fox, can you grab someone out of shine immediately, so like this:

1 shine, hitlag
2 hitlag
3 hitlag
4 start jump
5 press z, start grab
6
7
8
9
10 grab

would the grab miss or would it connect and they are in your grab immediately after the shine?

 

[Doraki]

they can dodge or roll out of this.

 

[SCOTU]

It looks like this:


1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5
6
7 Start Jump
8 Start Grab
9
10
11
12
13
14 Grab

 

[SCOTU]

So, you cannot be grabbed out of it, but it can be escaped by a roll/ dodge, like Doraki said.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Sorry, appparently you misunderstood me... I meant to ask whether you can grab them out of the shine if the shine hits....:embarrass

 

[Dark Sonic]

I think the shine would push them away too fast. They'd be out of your grab range by the time the grab comes out.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

That's what I think, too, but I'm not sure, so I figured I would ask.