Meta Secrets of the Umbra: Bayonetta Metagame Discussion

[pikazz]

The ledges of the stage are normally a bit lower than the central level, so if you suse Bulllet Climax near the ledge, it goes closer to ground at mid-level. This means you can hit smaller foes, or foes farther away pretty easily. If you're on the lower level when the stage tilts, you're golden, as the bullets will go almost parallel to the stage. So when most projectiles turn into crap, yours is actually pretty good!

Sitting still and trying to camp like that is still pretty bad, given the huge endlag on Bullet Climax, but you can use it pretty effectivelly to rack up %. It's pretty easy to hit almost all shots and getting an easy ~15% doing so. If they try to stay on the platforms, you can just jump to hit them. What I like most about this is really how other projectiles get bad when the stage tilts, but ours actually gets much better.

Still, I really find the platform layout to be terrible for us, so we lose something on this stage. I've liked Battlefield more recently, but I'd say Lylat is still pretty good. We also have a great recovery, so getting trolled by the ledges is less of an issue.

lylat has really good sharking properies for us, as our upsmash covers one whole plattform with really ease!
capture easy foes that tries to land on it safe or tech chase while we can easy avoid to land on them with dABK and uABK

one thing also is that many MANY really hate that stage but Bayonetta is one of the few that can really turn that stage into her favor!

 

[Nabil]

So far, I'm loving this thread, great work guys! There's just a few things that you should note down, maybe in the tech compendium section (also don't know if this has been said already, I kinda skimmed through the pages quickly aside from the first one).
1. Bayonetta cannot use Bullet Climax Buffer Cancel after an aerial combo involving a special move due to the extra end lag from using said special(s).
2. On the other hand, even after an aerial combo involving all your specials (2 ABKs and 2 Witch Twists), you can time a Witch Time before you hit the ground to cancel all the lag from the special move(s). Obviously you should not always use this, but it could be useful every once in a while. Don't spam this "tech", players will punish you for it.
3. You should probably link this video about "Extended Wall Jumping": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0xDzAD4Fgg. It's not a Bayonetta-specific tech, but it is useful nonetheless.
Keep this thread updated, can't wait for the playstyles, strategies, and movement sections!

 

[Sonicninja115]

So far, I'm loving this thread, great work guys! There's just a few things that you should note down, maybe in the tech compendium section (also don't know if this has been said already, I kinda skimmed through the pages quickly aside from the first one).
1. Bayonetta cannot use Bullet Climax Buffer Cancel after an aerial combo involving a special move due to the extra end lag from using said special(s).
2. On the other hand, even after an aerial combo involving all your specials (2 ABKs and 2 Witch Twists), you can time a Witch Time before you hit the ground to cancel all the lag from the special move(s). Obviously you should not always use this, but it could be useful every once in a while. Don't spam this "tech", players will punish you for it.
3. You should probably link this video about "Extended Wall Jumping": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0xDzAD4Fgg. It's not a Bayonetta-specific tech, but it is useful nonetheless.
Keep this thread updated, can't wait for the playstyles, strategies, and movement sections!

I believe I mention the first point, and the second point was debateable until I learned that Time recharges after 15 seconds apparently. (Source: MSC)
The first point is part of a video I made, so I wouldn't be surprised if I didn't spotlight it enough.

 

[LRodC]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F25oP0YfqQg

So is there any possible way to escape this combo? I went on For Glory against this Bayonetta only to get absolutely destroyed in 16 seconds. If this is true, Bayonetta might just be completely busted.

 

[Sonicninja115]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F25oP0YfqQg

So is there any possible way to escape this combo? I went on For Glory against this Bayonetta only to get absolutely destroyed in 16 seconds. If this is true, Bayonetta might just be completely busted.

DI down and away for the ABKs and away on the Twists and Fair 1. Should let you escape pretty easily, but not always. There are a few ways to semi-counteract DI, but good DI will still save your bacon.

 

[LRodC]

DI down and away for the ABKs and away on the Twists and Fair 1. Should let you escape pretty easily, but not always. There are a few ways to semi-counteract DI, but good DI will still save your bacon.

Yep, I've been hearing this from other people as well. That's still extremely good even if it's escapable. I was just caught off guard by it since I didn't know she could do that.

 

[Zult]

Just curious, what's the best Bayonetta guide out there? Video form or written. I feel like I'm missing some important things with Bayonetta. I just now realized how good up tilt was.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Just curious, what's the best Bayonetta guide out there? Video form or written. I feel like I'm missing some important things with Bayonetta. I just now realized how good up tilt was.

We don't have one as of yet. Probably MSC's combo video guide or the OP.

 

[Giova]

Idk if this was covered before.

My main kill combo that nobody expect is pretty easy and kills from 50% and even less.

If you land a grounded abk, follow up with the kick, then do an upair, double jump and another upair and then witch twist, following 2 or 1 air abk and finish the stock with an upair.

Easier method is just to upair once and then double jump witch twist.

It can be DI-ed but if you read the DI you can follow up correctly.

The good thing is that this isnt a common combo, so people don't expect it and DI wrong.

Good setup for easy kills, try it out!

Sorry for bad english, is not my native lenguage

 

[Megamang]

LRodC Not only should you be DIng, you should be using SDI as well. Anything with Witch Twist is SDIable, and with great SDI they will probably only hit one more move after the initial Witch Twist. I don't see how it can be still good if it is escapable, it will hit a skill ceiling where eventually it is super risky. I think safe BnB damage is much better than relying on your opponent to make a mistake, especially since missing 2 Witch Twists means you will fall for a long time and take extended damage. Speaking of this, you should know: bayonetta accumulates lag as she uses her specials in the air. If you see a bayonetta miss a bunch, get ready to punish. She can Witch Time to reduce this lag, but it 1)stales Witch Time and 2) is really punishable anyways.

So, if you have a ranged smash attack (I believe Mewtwo's fsmash will work, with good spacing) you should use a charged smash to kill bayonetta. If you attack from the right range, you can start the smash to bait Witch Time, then hit with a charged smash for an early kill. I may be spoiled, because megaman's charge shot is especially good for this, but mess around with it. If you can start punishing Witch Times with strong moves , you will find yourself winning a lot more vs Bayonetta. Lots of bayonettas, from low level and even higher in the right pressure situations, will resort to Witch Time when the pressure is on. This means clutch situations will swing in your favor.

Giova
If by 'grounded ABK' you mean Heel Slide Kick, aka Side B when you are on the ground, you really shouldn't be using this in neutral. Right now people get hit with this (I can't believe it has taken people this long to adapt as it is...), but they really shouldn't unless there are some outstanding circumstances. That said, you will be landing it in these circumstances (juggles, hard reads, roll punishes, ledge option punishes, etc) so it is nice to have an option for getting the kill from a hit!

 

[Sonicninja115]

LRodC Not only should you be DIng, you should be using SDI as well. Anything with Witch Twist is SDIable, and with great SDI they will probably only hit one more move after the initial Witch Twist. I don't see how it can be still good if it is escapable, it will hit a skill ceiling where eventually it is super risky. I think safe BnB damage is much better than relying on your opponent to make a mistake, especially since missing 2 Witch Twists means you will fall for a long time and take extended damage. Speaking of this, you should know: bayonetta accumulates lag as she uses her specials in the air. If you see a bayonetta miss a bunch, get ready to punish. She can Witch Time to reduce this lag, but it 1)stales Witch Time and 2) is really punishable anyways.

So, if you have a ranged smash attack (I believe Mewtwo's fsmash will work, with good spacing) you should use a charged smash to kill bayonetta. If you attack from the right range, you can start the smash to bait Witch Time, then hit with a charged smash for an early kill. I may be spoiled, because megaman's charge shot is especially good for this, but mess around with it. If you can start punishing Witch Times with strong moves , you will find yourself winning a lot more vs Bayonetta. Lots of bayonettas, from low level and even higher in the right pressure situations, will resort to Witch Time when the pressure is on. This means clutch situations will swing in your favor.

Giova
If by 'grounded ABK' you mean Heel Slide Kick, aka Side B when you are on the ground, you really shouldn't be using this in neutral. Right now people get hit with this (I can't believe it has taken people this long to adapt as it is...), but they really shouldn't unless there are some outstanding circumstances. That said, you will be landing it in these circumstances (juggles, hard reads, roll punishes, ledge option punishes, etc) so it is nice to have an option for getting the kill from a hit!

Wouldn't a heel slide be safe on Shield from behind? What are the punish frames? I know a JC move is a good counter, but would a smash work?

 

[Megamang]

I think if you end up in a situation where the kick is hitting the back if your shield, you probably can't punish. Most of the punishes should be dropping shield and outright beating the HSK, because the kick itself is pretty safe. Its kinda like approaching with Flip Kick or Bouncing Fish, its efficacy will decrease over time because each MU probably has a MU specific way to counter it. With megaman, I can time a grab on the slide between the backflip, kick, and in bayo dittos I can jump and Divekick it, or time a grab, or Witch Time. Not sure about anyone else. I guess with a swordsman the obvious punish is a drop shield smash since disjoints should crush it.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I think if you end up in a situation where the kick is hitting the back if your shield, you probably can't punish. Most of the punishes should be dropping shield and outright beating the HSK, because the kick itself is pretty safe. Its kinda like approaching with Flip Kick or Bouncing Fish, its efficacy will decrease over time because each MU probably has a MU specific way to counter it. With megaman, I can time a grab on the slide between the backflip, kick, and in bayo dittos I can jump and Divekick it, or time a grab, or Witch Time. Not sure about anyone else. I guess with a swordsman the obvious punish is a drop shield smash since disjoints should crush it.

SH Counters probably destroy the kick. Especially Shulk's counter.

I am currently working on Mewtwo's combo thread, but should be back working on this thread next week. Also, did the hype die off hard or what? It seems people realized that just because she is really good doesn't mean she is pick-to-win.

 

[Megamang]

Meh, almost every character gets a nice surge with release/buffs, and then falls back to a natural level. I think she will be hitting her true place eventually, and people will be back to work on her meta.

That said, her meta is now often about optimizing punishes since that gives the most reward with the least thought. As people finally stop getting hit with HSK, the meta will truly flesh itself out.

Personally, I have been using a defensive style. Bullet arts forces approaches and unstales my dtilt, which I make extremely liberal usage of. Nair also comes from short hops and makes solid pressure. I also like to spend time SHing with my back to the opponent, often bairing if they shield or try and contest the jump. The bair is so good, I prefer its great usefulness in the nuetral to keeping it fresh hoping for an early kill, as Witch Time, dair, fthrow, edgeguards, and even stale bair work great for kills. Honestly it never gets too stale because I like to use it to slam shields more than anything, then open up with something more confirm-y. If they start getting too comfortable with the fact that im going to bair, a surprise divekick works wonders. Not to say im short hopping everywhere, I actually spend most of the time on the ground with responsive duck-powershields or PPback - dtilts to punish their SHs. If they stay on the ground dtilt is almost always a better zoning tool than they have, especially considering its hefty reward.

Bullet arts and extended nair for edgeguarding pretty much rounds out my game. I use her as a secondary for Megaman's tough MUs more than a main, so I mostly worry about those MUs. Having a better combo game than shiek is so refreshing, and being able to Witch Time her in the 50/50 turns it not to a 50/50 but a tough RPS game where her losses hurt more, usually.

Timing frame 1 Bat Within makes up most of my disadvantage game, as well as randy divekicks. If they try and juggle you off the top, a quick divekick -> uair near the ceiling means they are risking a stock near the roof.

Finally, watching what gets through my bair/divekick/BAC wall helps me land Witch Time for early kills.

Am I missing anything major? It feels like as of right now, there isn't much to be desired in the metagame. If you can pull off your confirms, slap together a decent neutral, and make proper Witch Time calls, you will win. I haven't lost a game where I felt helpless. (Note, Megaman takes care of Ness, Luigi, DK, Bowser... he is pretty great for a Bayo complement. So I don't play those MUs. Pretty much anyone who relies strongly on grab is able to be kept out by Megaman pretty effectively. He even goes almost even with ZSS)

 

[Sonicninja115]

Meh, almost every character gets a nice surge with release/buffs, and then falls back to a natural level. I think she will be hitting her true place eventually, and people will be back to work on her meta.

That said, her meta is now often about optimizing punishes since that gives the most reward with the least thought. As people finally stop getting hit with HSK, the meta will truly flesh itself out.

Personally, I have been using a defensive style. Bullet arts forces approaches and unstales my dtilt, which I make extremely liberal usage of. Nair also comes from short hops and makes solid pressure. I also like to spend time SHing with my back to the opponent, often bairing if they shield or try and contest the jump. The bair is so good, I prefer its great usefulness in the nuetral to keeping it fresh hoping for an early kill, as Witch Time, dair, fthrow, edgeguards, and even stale bair work great for kills. Honestly it never gets too stale because I like to use it to slam shields more than anything, then open up with something more confirm-y. If they start getting too comfortable with the fact that im going to bair, a surprise divekick works wonders. Not to say im short hopping everywhere, I actually spend most of the time on the ground with responsive duck-powershields or PPback - dtilts to punish their SHs. If they stay on the ground dtilt is almost always a better zoning tool than they have, especially considering its hefty reward.

Bullet arts and extended nair for edgeguarding pretty much rounds out my game. I use her as a secondary for Megaman's tough MUs more than a main, so I mostly worry about those MUs. Having a better combo game than shiek is so refreshing, and being able to Witch Time her in the 50/50 turns it not to a 50/50 but a tough RPS game where her losses hurt more, usually.

Timing frame 1 Bat Within makes up most of my disadvantage game, as well as randy divekicks. If they try and juggle you off the top, a quick divekick -> uair near the ceiling means they are risking a stock near the roof.

Finally, watching what gets through my bair/divekick/BAC wall helps me land Witch Time for early kills.

Am I missing anything major? It feels like as of right now, there isn't much to be desired in the metagame. If you can pull off your confirms, slap together a decent neutral, and make proper Witch Time calls, you will win. I haven't lost a game where I felt helpless. (Note, Megaman takes care of Ness, Luigi, DK, Bowser... he is pretty great for a Bayo complement. So I don't play those MUs. Pretty much anyone who relies strongly on grab is able to be kept out by Megaman pretty effectively. He even goes almost even with ZSS)

I really want to work on stylish Time punishes. Because if there is anything worse then sitting back while free damage is being dealt, it is sitting back while free, stylish damage is being dealt.

Something like Usmash>Bair>Dair >Dtilt or something.

We also need to work on BW uses and punishes. It gets you out of a tight spot, but what moves does it beat? How can we punish? What moves do we lose to?

(PP is great with Bayonetta and Mewtwo. I love that tech.)

 

[Megamang]

I find Bat Within is great so far for netting me extra damage when i would have gotten knocked away...

In all seriousness, I use it mostly with the airdodge. Frame 1 is too good to pass up. Escaping juggles with FFAD or SHAD to escape pressure is great. Her SHAD is better than her roll in almost every way, so try and add that to your game.

Think of the bats as a close call save, as anyone else would have gotten hit. It shouldn't be something to be planned or relied on. That said, learning punishes from the activation would be nice, but first we need to find out if there is a frame advantage at all. It feels pretty slow to me... Smashes like Luigi's down smash can trigger the BW, and then hit you before you can do anything. I already dodge too much with my characters, so im trying to work on that by attempting to trade more with utilt or dodge -> hit with dtilt.

 

[Zult]

I really want to work on stylish Time punishes. Because if there is anything worse then sitting back while free damage is being dealt, it is sitting back while free, stylish damage is being dealt.

Something like Usmash>Bair>Dair >Dtilt or something.

We also need to work on BW uses and punishes. It gets you out of a tight spot, but what moves does it beat? How can we punish? What moves do we lose to?

(PP is great with Bayonetta and Mewtwo. I love that tech.)

I know with some or most multi hitting jabs bath within is useful. When someone is hitting your shield constantly with their rapid jab waiting for you to drop it so they can hit you with the finisher you can roll behind them without the fear of one of the jabs getting your vulnerable frames during the roll. Doesn't work on little mac tho for whatever reason. I thought BW was frame 1, but couldn't get it to work on lil mac.

 

[Megamang]

Theres another use I forgot about, it gets you out of stuff like rapid jabs and utilt chains... but often they just take the half damage from the utilt and tilt you again, or dashgrab since your CQC isn't stellar. I guess if I read this I can Witch Twist to punish the dash grab... hmm..

Anyways, Bat Within is Frame 1 on spotdodge and airdodge, and frame 3 on the rolls. The rolls are totally identical by the way, so no need to feel like an MK situation where you should be facing a certain way to roll...

That said, SHAD is way better in almost every way. Sure the jumpsquat adds 4 frames, but compare these:

Rolls: Bat Within 3-5, intangibility 6-19, FAF 38
Airdodge: Bat Within 1-4, intangibility 5-27, FAF 37

Both are pretty terrible after the intangibility ends, so her dodges are no where near as safe as other top characters. Use the front ended intangibility and Bat Within to get out of hairy situations, but don't expect to roll or even airdodge into pressure like Diddy Kong or Pikachu can. Its a reasonable trade, the f1 stuff is amazing and means if you buffer your airdodge correctly it is still BW barely after a roll but is intangible for 8 more frames, and you can guide it much more than your roll.

But yea, you can see from the frame data her dodges are pretty lackluster. Witch Time is active frame 5 and obviously results in a punishment that is magnitudes stronger, you should pretty much always use it if you know its gonna succeed. And its new every 15 seconds, so its not like it is that devastating if you miss... compared to how strong it is if it hits =P. Obviously if they punish you intensely for it, it wasn't worth it but... its tangible again at frame 29, FAF of 45, so not hugely more punishable than the rolls...

Her risk reward is so high for hits, and her mobility and ESPECIALLY her dance trot so good that I find myself better off trying to trade or dodge with utilt or dtilt, respectively, augmented by PP or simple initial dashes. Dash to shield is pretty great with her, and hitting a powershield should mean you enter confirm zone unless you were hit with the safest move ever.

Im currently trying to dodge less in my game, so maybe i'm being unnaturally pessimistic about this stuff here, but even my character with way better dodges (and survivability, and way worse dashes and PP) shouldn't be shielding and dodging as much as I do, hence my feelings on bayo's worse dodges. You should be spacing them out, shooting at them, or setting up for a long string. If they get you dodging, they can work on killing you from there.

Source for frame data: kuroganehammer.com

 

[pikazz]

Theres another use I forgot about, it gets you out of stuff like rapid jabs and utilt chains... but often they just take the half damage from the utilt and tilt you again, or dashgrab since your CQC isn't stellar. I guess if I read this I can Witch Twist to punish the dash grab... hmm..

Anyways, Bat Within is Frame 1 on spotdodge and airdodge, and frame 3 on the rolls. The rolls are totally identical by the way, so no need to feel like an MK situation where you should be facing a certain way to roll...

That said, SHAD is way better in almost every way. Sure the jumpsquat adds 4 frames, but compare these:

Rolls: Bat Within 3-5, intangibility 6-19, FAF 38
Airdodge: Bat Within 1-4, intangibility 5-27, FAF 37

Both are pretty terrible after the intangibility ends, so her dodges are no where near as safe as other top characters. Use the front ended intangibility and Bat Within to get out of hairy situations, but don't expect to roll or even airdodge into pressure like Diddy Kong or Pikachu can. Its a reasonable trade, the f1 stuff is amazing and means if you buffer your airdodge correctly it is still BW barely after a roll but is intangible for 8 more frames, and you can guide it much more than your roll.

But yea, you can see from the frame data her dodges are pretty lackluster. Witch Time is active frame 5 and obviously results in a punishment that is magnitudes stronger, you should pretty much always use it if you know its gonna succeed. And its new every 15 seconds, so its not like it is that devastating if you miss... compared to how strong it is if it hits =P. Obviously if they punish you intensely for it, it wasn't worth it but... its tangible again at frame 29, FAF of 45, so not hugely more punishable than the rolls...

Her risk reward is so high for hits, and her mobility and ESPECIALLY her dance trot so good that I find myself better off trying to trade or dodge with utilt or dtilt, respectively, augmented by PP or simple initial dashes. Dash to shield is pretty great with her, and hitting a powershield should mean you enter confirm zone unless you were hit with the safest move ever.

Im currently trying to dodge less in my game, so maybe i'm being unnaturally pessimistic about this stuff here, but even my character with way better dodges (and survivability, and way worse dashes and PP) shouldn't be shielding and dodging as much as I do, hence my feelings on bayo's worse dodges. You should be spacing them out, shooting at them, or setting up for a long string. If they get you dodging, they can work on killing you from there.

Source for frame data: kuroganehammer.com

almost forgot SHAD existed, but how good is SHAD for Bayonetta? will she be able to land safely without landing lag from Air Dodge and will she be able to use a move after the dodge with either DAir or anything else?

if that so, SHAD BAir might be one move that can be really effective! similiar effectiveness that Mewtwos SHAD FAir is

EDIT: just tested SHAD with Bayonetta. she cant use any aerials after the dodge but will not recieve any landing lag from the air dodge! however you will be able to do an UpB and ABK before landing! the ABK might be something to go on as its somewhat safe on shield

 

[Megamang]

If you buffer it without fastfalling, can you do a divekick from the SHAD? That would be a nice move, since it would be safe on shield and also confirm for a lot of damage if they try and do something cheeky to punish the airdodge.

I use FHAD to pass people coming down to pressure when I don't feel like messing with the prediction of them doing a landing aerial or a landing grab, its a very strong corner escape for many characters and is something I think we will see more of in the future. Again, bayo's dodges aren't top tier, but her aggressive mixups from them are, so its nice to have the option. I really like it against Ryu, since him landing with a fair is really safe and scary for your shield, and he can't close vertical distance or change direction very swiftly.

 

[pikazz]

If you buffer it without fastfalling, can you do a divekick from the SHAD? That would be a nice move, since it would be safe on shield and also confirm for a lot of damage if they try and do something cheeky to punish the airdodge.

I use FHAD to pass people coming down to pressure when I don't feel like messing with the prediction of them doing a landing aerial or a landing grab, its a very strong corner escape for many characters and is something I think we will see more of in the future. Again, bayo's dodges aren't top tier, but her aggressive mixups from them are, so its nice to have the option. I really like it against Ryu, since him landing with a fair is really safe and scary for your shield, and he can't close vertical distance or change direction very swiftly.

you can do SHAD dABK too! that will be really safe on shield!
you will bounce if you hit them or you will hit them when you will hit the ground and slide

 

[Sonicninja115]

you can do SHAD dABK too! that will be really safe on shield!
you will bounce if you hit them or you will hit them when you will hit the ground and slide

This is insanely useful. Imagine switching it up with Grab, so that Shields are not a safe option, or just foxtrotting backwards after landing. This is practically a easy way to get an aerial ABK off on a grounded opponent. I will add this to the OP and make a vid if you don't mind.

 

[pikazz]

This is insanely useful. Imagine switching it up with Grab, so that Shields are not a safe option, or just foxtrotting backwards after landing. This is practically a easy way to get an aerial ABK off on a grounded opponent. I will add this to the OP and make a vid if you don't mind.

I was planing to record it right now to show off all the SHAD options you have but be my quest!

but there is something thats can be a problem and thats Bat Within. if Bat Within is the same animations frame long as Air Dodge on f1, you will be able to do everything (or any Aerial if Bat Within ends faster than normal air dodge). but what if Bat Within triggers after the I-frames, will it still be as long as the Air Dodge itself or will you not be able to do anything until landing?

EDIT: forgot there is one Aerial you can do and thats DAir.

so you have these options on SHAD:
Witch Twist
After Burner Kick
Downward After Burner Kick
Down Air
Landing as a bait with a Grab/ground move

 

[BlackCephie]

Ive recently been messing around with a bullet arts based playstyle where, instead of going for long combos that you run the risk of long landing lag, you focus on short reliable combos where last hits are extended by BA from your normals. On the ground focusing on dtilt BA and bullet climax mixups and avoidence using diveABK as well as pivot ftilt BA, trying not to time your BA so that its not punishable at certain ranges. Just labbing really. I tried it in friendlies at a tourney recently and people were really taken offguard by the approach. It really allows heel slide to to shine as far as converting into offense since your opponent is constantly tryin to punish short burst bullet arts.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I was planing to record it right now to show off all the SHAD options you have but be my quest!

but there is something thats can be a problem and thats Bat Within. if Bat Within is the same animations frame long as Air Dodge on f1, you will be able to do everything (or any Aerial if Bat Within ends faster than normal air dodge). but what if Bat Within triggers after the I-frames, will it still be as long as the Air Dodge itself or will you not be able to do anything until landing?

EDIT: forgot there is one Aerial you can do and thats DAir.

so you have these options on SHAD:
Witch Twist
After Burner Kick
Downward After Burner Kick
Down Air
Landing as a bait with a Grab/ground move

I set Z to Jump, And Twist>Twist is super easy now. I don't know why. At certain percents I need to time my mashing, but most of the time you can mash through the entire move and be fine.

 

[Sonicninja115]

How good is dABK as a combo breaker? Diddy's Uthrow-Uair doesn't true 120+, so could we theoretically beat it with a mashing dABK>Twist? How about others? Robs, Shieks, Marios combos?

 

[pikazz]

it could work, but sadly Bayonettas moves have almost no priority at all so it would most likely trade if Diddys UAir connects with dABK.

 

[Sonicninja115]

it could work, but sadly Bayonettas moves have almost no priority at all so it would most likely trade if Diddys UAir connects with dABK.

I will test it to make sure, but I guess it won't work.

Another point. Diddy Kong can FF Fair Shieks and beat a straight Dthrow-Uair, can Bayonetta do the same? Diddy's Fair is frame 6, and Bayo is 8. I don't know why Diddy can do this, and not other characters. Hitbox? Size? FF Speed?

 

[pikazz]

fastfall FAir1 can lead to a grab

 

[Megamang]

Diddy's escape isn't just because he can do the aerial at speed, its due to his exact combination of gravity/weight/aerial mobility which puts him at a certain spot when D-thrown. Also, this option can still lose to a correctly placed Vanish, so if we find a similar escape option, be sure to test that to see the risk involved.

I prefer to just Witch Time if I predict an u-air, if there is a gap big enough this is a huge punish. Otherwise, the timing to hit Vanish is very tight. Witch Time turns the 50/50 into a deadly game of RPS, its one of the big reasons I have picked up Bayo as a shiek slayer, since I have died to d-throw uair one too many times in tournament. The freeze is so satisfying :B

 

[Sonicninja115]

Diddy's escape isn't just because he can do the aerial at speed, its due to his exact combination of gravity/weight/aerial mobility which puts him at a certain spot when D-thrown. Also, this option can still lose to a correctly placed Vanish, so if we find a similar escape option, be sure to test that to see the risk involved.

I prefer to just Witch Time if I predict an u-air, if there is a gap big enough this is a huge punish. Otherwise, the timing to hit Vanish is very tight. Witch Time turns the 50/50 into a deadly game of RPS, its one of the big reasons I have picked up Bayo as a shiek slayer, since I have died to d-throw uair one too many times in tournament. The freeze is so satisfying :B

The reason Uthrow-Uair doesn't kill at 120+ is because of hitstun cancelling jank. Forgot about that. But dABK could still beat a waiting option.

Also, Fair now beats vanish, you just have to space it really tightly. Something to do with the nerfs or a small mistake on the shieks part I believe. I believe.

 

[Squiiidzoid]

Hey, I just wanted to share a neat bayo technique I found, reverse jump cancel witch time. The uses of this are, normally witch time makes you move backwards, which can make it hard to use against approaching moves, aerials and projectiles and time correctly. However, this makes you move forward, and she also swings her leg forward in a cartwheel animation, giving it a MASSIVE counter trigger hitbox. This can be done from a run, and it's main use is getting through spacing and projectile zoning walls, when you're at mid to close range. This is useful, as this is one of her big weaknesses.

Also, I've been having some issues with my play, and I was wondering if you guys could help me. One of the things I'm really struggling against, is people abusing moves that beat witch time, such as lingering moves or multihits, which quite often just still hit you when you witch time them, or sometimes just beat your smash attacks. Also, with them using these moves a lot in neutral, I can't find a way to beat them, as they quite often outlast and beat her dodges which have quite bad framedata, are often safe on shield, and beat most of her moves, and they especially beat her smashes.

I've also been struggling at getting in against characters with strong zoning and spacing games, especially with projectiles. Any help with these would be greatly appreciated, thanks

Also, I've been looking into bayo having the ability to cancel her bullet climax charge into things, like sheik's needle cancelling and needle fidgeting.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=99vpSSd68U4

I have been unable to successfully do it in my testing, but I also can't do it for sheik, so It is probably me at fault. It may also help to know things like what frame it starts charging. Assuming it works like sheik's needles, there would be many powerful uses for this, especially in the air. With sheik's, in the air she can cancel it into any special, including needle charge again. For sheik the needle fidgeting itself is pretty useless, but for bayo, each time bayo charges bullet climax, she has her momentum cancelled and hovers in the air for a long time. I also tested, and no matter how many times you use it in the air before landing, it still stops your momentum to the full extent, unlike witch time.

Because of this, when high up, she would be able to hover in the air for a very long time, only descending very slowly. You can also b reverse any of them. When you are done, you could cancel it into an airdodge, witch time, witch twist, ABK, divekick, or even release the charged bullet climax bullets. This could be useful for mixing up landing options, stalling, recovering mixups and stalling, edgeguarding mixups and stalling, etc. It may also be useful in the neutral, letting you full/shorthop into the air and then hover for however long you want, and then divekicking towards them when you want, or witch timing if they try and attack you. So please could someone try and lab this, it would make sense for it to exist, due to how her cancelling mechanics work.

 

[Megamang]

First off, I really like the idea of that tech. I never thought of utilizing the B reverse (you are B reversing it, right?) like that, but it sounds useful. I have complained about this, im not sure if its here or in another area of smashboards, but all the counters that stall or dodge for a bit are so annoying! You are COUNTERING, don't DODGE, just get hit so you can counter! I have done so many counters where the slight stall makes them miss a smash, then I just get punished because counters all have horrific endlag.

The moves that beat Witch Time aren't generally great moves for using in the neutral. Usually a feint combined with either a divekick or bair can punish these options. I can't think of any move that beats Witch Time cleanly that can be used in neutral to a strong effect, can you give some examples of what troubles you?

Everything beats our smash attacks, they are projectile priority. This is fine, because Bayonettas smash attacks should be used in neutral extremely sparingly. I know it is tempting to try and use their range to get something going, but it really isn't worth it. They are slow and predictable, and extremely punishable. Only use the smash when you know it will hit.

In general, Bayonetta's dodges aren't the greatest. And she is rather delicate. I wouldn't spend nearly as much time dodging with Bayonetta as you do with most characters, they aren't good and she can't stand too many hits. Use a mobile neutral to get in, space your extremely low lag aerials (nair and bair) to pressure them. If they are using a move that cleanly beats our moves, chances are it is fairly punishable. Use calm, collected spacing (people might call what I see here 'microspacing', but I think that is a dumb term) to work your way in. If they whiff hard, HSK can punish.

In general, fighting games are rock paper scissors, and you need to beat them by choosing your correct option. For example, spaced bairs are extremely strong. If they beat your spaced bairs by using some tool, come at them like you are going to do another spaced bair. Then, jump away and up; if they react with the move that usually beats your bair, you can probably punish it with divekick.

Without specifics, I can't really help you more than the basics I gave you there. Do you have any specific moves which are giving you trouble, or even a video for critique?

Zoning is kinda tough on Bayonetta, but know that your reward is exponentially higher than theirs for their projectile hits. So be patient. Walk on the ground and powershield each projectile (if you can't do this, practice practice practice! you should be able to powershield most projectiles on reaction, the large window in this game combined with how skinny bayonetta is means it isn't hard, you can have it down in a few hours easy), encroach on their space until their back is to the ledge, then start scoring some hits. Most projectile characters don't have a great recovery, so push them off the ledge and end their stock there! After that,they have to approach you, so you hold all the cards and they can't zone any more =D

 

[ElMoro995]

First off, I really like the idea of that tech. I never thought of utilizing the B reverse (you are B reversing it, right?) like that, but it sounds useful.

I've tried this some days ago, I don't remember if witch time is one of those moves which cannot be b-reversed (like mario's downb), but I was able to do this on the ground while running with the same inputs you use to do a RAR bair

 

[Squiiidzoid]

I've tried this some days ago, I don't remember if witch time is one of those moves which cannot be b-reversed (like mario's downb), but I was able to do this on the ground while running with the same inputs you use to do a RAR bair

First off, I really like the idea of that tech. I never thought of utilizing the B reverse (you are B reversing it, right?) like that, but it sounds useful. I have complained about this, im not sure if its here or in another area of smashboards, but all the counters that stall or dodge for a bit are so annoying! You are COUNTERING, don't DODGE, just get hit so you can counter! I have done so many counters where the slight stall makes them miss a smash, then I just get punished because counters all have horrific endlag.

The moves that beat Witch Time aren't generally great moves for using in the neutral. Usually a feint combined with either a divekick or bair can punish these options. I can't think of any move that beats Witch Time cleanly that can be used in neutral to a strong effect, can you give some examples of what troubles you?

Everything beats our smash attacks, they are projectile priority. This is fine, because Bayonettas smash attacks should be used in neutral extremely sparingly. I know it is tempting to try and use their range to get something going, but it really isn't worth it. They are slow and predictable, and extremely punishable. Only use the smash when you know it will hit.

In general, Bayonetta's dodges aren't the greatest. And she is rather delicate. I wouldn't spend nearly as much time dodging with Bayonetta as you do with most characters, they aren't good and she can't stand too many hits. Use a mobile neutral to get in, space your extremely low lag aerials (nair and bair) to pressure them. If they are using a move that cleanly beats our moves, chances are it is fairly punishable. Use calm, collected spacing (people might call what I see here 'microspacing', but I think that is a dumb term) to work your way in. If they whiff hard, HSK can punish.

In general, fighting games are rock paper scissors, and you need to beat them by choosing your correct option. For example, spaced bairs are extremely strong. If they beat your spaced bairs by using some tool, come at them like you are going to do another spaced bair. Then, jump away and up; if they react with the move that usually beats your bair, you can probably punish it with divekick.

Without specifics, I can't really help you more than the basics I gave you there. Do you have any specific moves which are giving you trouble, or even a video for critique?

Zoning is kinda tough on Bayonetta, but know that your reward is exponentially higher than theirs for their projectile hits. So be patient. Walk on the ground and powershield each projectile (if you can't do this, practice practice practice! you should be able to powershield most projectiles on reaction, the large window in this game combined with how skinny bayonetta is means it isn't hard, you can have it down in a few hours easy), encroach on their space until their back is to the ledge, then start scoring some hits. Most projectile characters don't have a great recovery, so push them off the ledge and end their stock there! After that,they have to approach you, so you hold all the cards and they can't zone any more =D

Yea, witch time can't be b reversed, like you said, the inputs are the same as a RAR, but you jump cancel/buffer the witch time. And yea, it's really useful cos it makes it super easy to have the counter triggered.

And for the moves I'm having trouble against, is against certain characters, like Mario, pika, and sonic. For Mario, it's really any lingering or multihitting moves, that also happen to be pretty much lagless and safe on shield. Such as dair, bair, nair, fireball, and dash attack. A lot of these also beat spotdodges, like dash attack because it lingers so long. Also pika is similar to Mario, with the thunder jolts being just like the fireballs, but also having multihits like dsmash, nair and bair that do the same things. I have trained myself to perfect shield very reliably, but due to how fireball and thunder jolt work if used correctly, when they use it on the approach, even if I perfect shield it they have a big frame advantage. As such even if I perfect shield them they can true shield combo it into a grab while I'm in shieldstun.

And the other moves, when I try and punish them by dropping shield and going for a grab punish or something, I just end up getting punished for trying to punish them, because what they did was safe. And for sonic, he has a ton of moves that are lingering hitboxes or multihits or something, that all seem to beat witch time and her other moves, such as spindash, spincharge, homing shot, upair, fair, dash attack, upsmash. The issues I'm having also apply to when I'm above them being juggled, or on a platform above them, they can just safely use these moves and if I witch time then I still get hit. But yea this is more specific, and thanks for the help. I don't really use divekick and Bair enough in my neutral game currently, and whenever I've used Bair in a match I usually end up having terrible spacing and just getting shieldgrabbed or something, but maybe I just need to practice it more.

Also, does anyone know where the bair sweet and sourspots are? It's quite important for making it safe on shield, and also for killing with it. And I saw some people saying bat within looks slow, but actually, when bat within activates, it slows down you and the opponent for a slow mo effect, but it's actually pretty fast if you factor in the opponent being slowed down too. And for some reason whenever I do Nair or bullet arts Nair on shield it's really unsafe and I get punished. Also I guess a big part of the problems I'm having, is what should I use as an anti-air against high priority aerials? Also preferably safe if they airdodge it. I was thinking uptilt but the marios often go for tomohawk bairs or dair descending from above/a little behind me.

And please could someone test the bullet climax cancel needle fidgeting thing? I think it would be suuuper useful for her movement options and gameplay. Also, I think we should look into doing ABK from the ledge/shorthop buffered ABK/SHAD ABK through shield, and then Bair after. If it hits them, it combos them for a sweet 19% and possibly a kill, and if they shield it, it's safe on shield, and because of how it's spaced, if they chase you and try and punish, they either eat a Bair to the face, for 13% and possibly a kill, or if they shield then it's just a perfectly spaced Bair on shield and so unpunishable, weakening their shield by 19% (shields have 42 health, although apparently that number may not be totally correct).

 

[Sonicninja115]

Yea, witch time can't be b reversed, like you said, the inputs are the same as a RAR, but you jump cancel/buffer the witch time. And yea, it's really useful cos it makes it super easy to have the counter triggered.

And for the moves I'm having trouble against, is against certain characters, like Mario, pika, and sonic. For Mario, it's really any lingering or multihitting moves, that also happen to be pretty much lagless and safe on shield. Such as dair, bair, nair, fireball, and dash attack. A lot of these also beat spotdodges, like dash attack because it lingers so long. Also pika is similar to Mario, with the thunder jolts being just like the fireballs, but also having multihits like dsmash, nair and bair that do the same things. I have trained myself to perfect shield very reliably, but due to how fireball and thunder jolt work if used correctly, when they use it on the approach, even if I perfect shield it they have a big frame advantage. As such even if I perfect shield them they can true shield combo it into a grab while I'm in shieldstun.

And the other moves, when I try and punish them by dropping shield and going for a grab punish or something, I just end up getting punished for trying to punish them, because what they did was safe. And for sonic, he has a ton of moves that are lingering hitboxes or multihits or something, that all seem to beat witch time and her other moves, such as spindash, spincharge, homing shot, upair, fair, dash attack, upsmash. The issues I'm having also apply to when I'm above them being juggled, or on a platform above them, they can just safely use these moves and if I witch time then I still get hit. But yea this is more specific, and thanks for the help. I don't really use divekick and Bair enough in my neutral game currently, and whenever I've used Bair in a match I usually end up having terrible spacing and just getting shieldgrabbed or something, but maybe I just need to practice it more.

Also, does anyone know where the bair sweet and sourspots are? It's quite important for making it safe on shield, and also for killing with it. And I saw some people saying bat within looks slow, but actually, when bat within activates, it slows down you and the opponent for a slow mo effect, but it's actually pretty fast if you factor in the opponent being slowed down too. And for some reason whenever I do Nair or bullet arts Nair on shield it's really unsafe and I get punished. Also I guess a big part of the problems I'm having, is what should I use as an anti-air against high priority aerials? Also preferably safe if they airdodge it. I was thinking uptilt but the marios often go for tomohawk bairs or dair descending from above/a little behind me.

And please could someone test the bullet climax cancel needle fidgeting thing? I think it would be suuuper useful for her movement options and gameplay. Also, I think we should look into doing ABK from the ledge/shorthop buffered ABK/SHAD ABK through shield, and then Bair after. If it hits them, it combos them for a sweet 19% and possibly a kill, and if they shield it, it's safe on shield, and because of how it's spaced, if they chase you and try and punish, they either eat a Bair to the face, for 13% and possibly a kill, or if they shield then it's just a perfectly spaced Bair on shield and so unpunishable, weakening their shield by 19% (shields have 42 health, although apparently that number may not be totally correct).

I can test IBCC. I thought I tested it previously, but I guess I didn't. Also, I am going to quote these posts so I can use them later. I have had school stuff recently, so I have only been able to write in a couple of threads, but my writing should be done by early next week, so I can pick up the pace again. Are there any posts that I missed? If so, please quote them to me so I can add them.

Also, I heard that Time recharges fully after 15 seconds. Can anyone confirm this?

 

[Megamang]

My mistake on the B-reverse thing, you are totally right. I knew that too >_<

For Mario, you have a nice range advantage. His ground game is also actually pretty lackluster, he has meh tilts, an admittedly solid dashgrab, decent Usmash... but no real burst range hitboxes. Against him, I like to play like I am a sword character. Lots of spacing dtilts, lots of walking and spacing myself. If he jumps, its a commitment, more so the higher he goes. Poke at him with d-tilt, jab if you're pretty sure it'll hit.

Perfect Pivot works just like a backdash. Use it space out commitments. One he is at a higher % (rage dependent when this is), his jumps are now wayyy riskier. If he is trying to tomahawk, his grab doesn't have that much reward compared to your dtilts (they should be confirming into combos, or at least start a chase where you punish his landing). If he is landing grabbing a lot, your ground options should be winning. If he is committing to bairs or something, then you have Witch Time (or even the technique you mentioned to land it easier) to hard hard punish that. Then it comes down to you vs him. But he should be having trouble with your longer reaching limbs, and way better ground game. Don't let him get in and start boxing, he is good at that.

Minus its range, dair is an amazing button. You aren't alone, most characters have real trouble with it. Just keep him out and keep in mind it doesn't have huge reward when it hits compared to your aerial. Speaking of which, your nair confirms to ABK at mid damage, so use that a lot. Bair is super strong, force him to the ledge and work with that. Max spaced bair should usually sweetspot, in my experience. But used close enough to the ground (ideally you want it to have the hitbox collide then you land the next frame. This is just a goal, not an expectation, but it should help you learn to use it safely. If you notice yourself falling much after it hits, that is making it much less safe) it is safe even if it sourspots.

I can't speak towards the other MUs much, I have megaman for those. Secret Pika counterpick =P.

Your moves actually beat quick attack, even if it doesn't feel that way. Don't fret, it is an extremely good button, but try and get a practice partner to learn how it works. You can beat it! It actually makes his hurtbox GIGANTIC, to the point you can do a retreating bair and itll hit when it was no where near him. Bair in general is an insanely good button, abuse it.

I believe HSK can situationally beat the safe fireball/thunderjolt approach you are describing, especially fireball, but I wouldn't rely on that. Both of those are solid approaching option. When they use it, consider it like they are mortaring a space, and that space is shut down. Just get out of there. They spent 45+ frames to pressure an area, but you can circumvent that by getting out of the way. Or, if you wanna teach them a lesson, use your tech and run right into the projectile and Witch Time it. Be ready to shield their aerial, and then hard hard punish them for it. Its a little tricky to time, but its possible.

Also, when you are powershielding, keep in mind you can effect the frame advantage by where you are. It sounds like they are hitting the perfect sweetspot if they are doing a true blockstring into grab. Add an initial dash forward to give them worse timing, or a walk backwards. As soon as you perfect shield, throw out a Witch Time (if they are close enough) It should win unless they had perfect spacing and timing, and again your reward is much higher.

FHAD -> divekick is also an option that does well against zoning.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Yea, witch time can't be b reversed, like you said, the inputs are the same as a RAR, but you jump cancel/buffer the witch time. And yea, it's really useful cos it makes it super easy to have the counter triggered.

And for the moves I'm having trouble against, is against certain characters, like Mario, pika, and sonic. For Mario, it's really any lingering or multihitting moves, that also happen to be pretty much lagless and safe on shield. Such as dair, bair, nair, fireball, and dash attack. A lot of these also beat spotdodges, like dash attack because it lingers so long. Also pika is similar to Mario, with the thunder jolts being just like the fireballs, but also having multihits like dsmash, nair and bair that do the same things. I have trained myself to perfect shield very reliably, but due to how fireball and thunder jolt work if used correctly, when they use it on the approach, even if I perfect shield it they have a big frame advantage. As such even if I perfect shield them they can true shield combo it into a grab while I'm in shieldstun.

And the other moves, when I try and punish them by dropping shield and going for a grab punish or something, I just end up getting punished for trying to punish them, because what they did was safe. And for sonic, he has a ton of moves that are lingering hitboxes or multihits or something, that all seem to beat witch time and her other moves, such as spindash, spincharge, homing shot, upair, fair, dash attack, upsmash. The issues I'm having also apply to when I'm above them being juggled, or on a platform above them, they can just safely use these moves and if I witch time then I still get hit. But yea this is more specific, and thanks for the help. I don't really use divekick and Bair enough in my neutral game currently, and whenever I've used Bair in a match I usually end up having terrible spacing and just getting shieldgrabbed or something, but maybe I just need to practice it more.

Also, does anyone know where the bair sweet and sourspots are? It's quite important for making it safe on shield, and also for killing with it. And I saw some people saying bat within looks slow, but actually, when bat within activates, it slows down you and the opponent for a slow mo effect, but it's actually pretty fast if you factor in the opponent being slowed down too. And for some reason whenever I do Nair or bullet arts Nair on shield it's really unsafe and I get punished. Also I guess a big part of the problems I'm having, is what should I use as an anti-air against high priority aerials? Also preferably safe if they airdodge it. I was thinking uptilt but the marios often go for tomohawk bairs or dair descending from above/a little behind me.

And please could someone test the bullet climax cancel needle fidgeting thing? I think it would be suuuper useful for her movement options and gameplay. Also, I think we should look into doing ABK from the ledge/shorthop buffered ABK/SHAD ABK through shield, and then Bair after. If it hits them, it combos them for a sweet 19% and possibly a kill, and if they shield it, it's safe on shield, and because of how it's spaced, if they chase you and try and punish, they either eat a Bair to the face, for 13% and possibly a kill, or if they shield then it's just a perfectly spaced Bair on shield and so unpunishable, weakening their shield by 19% (shields have 42 health, although apparently that number may not be totally correct).

Bair sweetspot is at the tip and a little inwards. The easiest way to check is that the sweetspot does 13%, while the sour does 10%

Shield health is a finicky thing. However, if you do that set-up and they shield it, there is an unforseen effect. They want to get out with the safest option, or roll, into your smash attack or combo move. Read their jump or roll, and punish accordingly. If they hold shield, Fthrow.

Also, Megamang I am working on the SHAD video, and it and a lot more will be up by early next week.

 

[StarGalaxy777]

So I have a question in regards to presumably two things...

#1
How does one perform the Triple Jump Glitch AT (The one where you JumpxxUpBxxJumpxxUpB[use the free jump]
How do you perform this and how and where do you perform the tricky midair jump the only time I ever get it is by mashing it in training and that is not the way to go in my book

I also see ppl UpB jump UpB and my opponents character doesnt fly away as far. How does one do that or does that relate to the question above here

Example @0:09
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F25oP0YfqQg

#2
dABK, which way is the most optimal way of doing it? Assuming I'm facing right, should I do the full Quarter Circle Forward essentially going from

South>South East>East

or

South East>East

[Sorry for the atrocious punctuation]

 

[Sonicninja115]

Checked IBCC, and it seemingly doesn't work. At least it doesn't line up with the timing I learned for Diddy.

So I have a question in regards to presumably two things...

#1
How does one perform the Triple Jump Glitch AT (The one where you JumpxxUpBxxJumpxxUpB[use the free jump]
How do you perform this and how and where do you perform the tricky midair jump the only time I ever get it is by mashing it in training and that is not the way to go in my book

I also see ppl UpB jump UpB and my opponents character doesnt fly away as far. How does one do that or does that relate to the question above here

Example @0:09
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F25oP0YfqQg

#2
dABK, which way is the most optimal way of doing it? Assuming I'm facing right, should I do the full Quarter Circle Forward essentially going from

South>South East>East

or

South East>East

[Sorry for the atrocious punctuation]

1: You have to do DJ-UP B. So double jump, and then immediately up B. after the twist, you should retain your DJ.

2: Extremely hard. If you hold B, or mash the input all the way through the Twist, then it is much harder. However, it can still work. I personally set Z to jump specifically for this combo, and I mash them at the lower percent range that the combo works at, and then try to time my mashing in the upper range.

3: I like using the Hadouken input. Another thing that I constantly need to remind myself about this is that i can dABK in either direction.