Official Seizon Senryaku: Marth General

[Bowserboy3]

See, I feel much the same about Cloud off stage (remember, all you need to do is drop from the ledge and Counter and it's game, along with everything else mentioned above). However, I also feel Marth has the advantage on stage too.

Marth luckily has enough mobility to do his own thing; Cloud's fast mobility can make some slower characters sweat because he can keep up in their face for as long as he wants. Most of Marth's moves outrange Cloud's main on stage/approach moves in the first place, such as Ftilt and Nair outranging most of his moves in general, and Utilt and Usmash both outrange Cloud's Dair, one of his main approach options. When Cloud is in the air, face to face with Marth, none of Cloud's moves are good enough to compete with Marth's Fair or Nair, when you consider their range and startup trumps almost all of Cloud's option (aside from maybe Bair, which probably has enough range to be a threat, but it's his slowest aerial), so while on stage, Cloud has a very limited set of approach options which Marth has a tool to beat out.

Sure, it's doable for Cloud, because when he has Marth in the air, it can be tough for Marth to get in for a landing without fast falling if Cloud leaves an opening, or even going to the ledge (because luckily, Cloud's ledge pressure options aren't the best, aside from charging Limit to force a reaction). My view is that Marth can play safer than Cloud, and it's effective because most of Marth's moves have enough range to be safe in this matchup.

Cloud in Limit mode is also strikingly easy to combo and juggle, and while that's just the case in a few matchups, I feel it is noticeable in the Marth matchup, because Marth doesn't have to worry about trading a hit as much as other characters, so he can go in with relative safety.

Of course this next part means nothing in general, but I use Rosalina, Marth, and Bayonetta (with the occasional ZSS) in tournament. Every time I have played against Cloud, I have won cleanly with Marth, and it's from those experiences that I was able to get my opinions on the matchup (which I basically explained all above). I don't really have to pull my hair out with Cloud in general, but I definitely have more trouble dealing with Cloud in general with the others characters I use. With Marth, 9 times out of 10, I am the one giving Cloud trouble. Maybe it's because I have a solid gameplan with Marth/understand my gameplan against Cloud with Marth better than the others... who knows. But I feel Marth definitely has some sort of advantage.

But hey, that's just my opinion. I'm glad a top player thinks the same though. At least people won't laugh at me anymore - sniff

 

[JayE]

Interesting. And yeah Marth can have a tough time landing against Cloud or characters with good juggles. DB stall or B reverse shieldbreaker can help Marth land.

 

[CURRY]

I just found out that we can do the Climhazzard ledge snap tech just like Cloud can. It's basically the ledgehog tech from Brawl, except now we can't abuse it for the ledge regrab iframes because they don't exist.

Does everyone know this already? :'D

Basically, it can help us grab the ledge earlier than we normally could after an aerial action-- for example, airdodge. If you try to airdodge and immediately grab the ledge, the game just likes being stupid, and doesn't allow you to grab the ledge until long after IASA frames (and your iframes) end.

However, if you're really close to the edge after your airdodge and you up-B, you'll be able to grab the ledge immediately, letting you stay in invincibility for almost the entire time.

Yaaay.

But... pshh, who wants to recover like Cloud when we already have a fast up-B that snaps to the ledge from afar anyway?

 

[JayE]

I just found out that we can do the Climhazzard ledge snap tech just like Cloud can. It's basically the ledgehog tech from Brawl, except now we can't abuse it for the ledge iframes.

Does everyone know this already? :'D

Basically, it can help us grab the ledge earlier than we normally could after an aerial action-- for example, airdodge. If you try to airdodge and immediately grab the ledge, the game just likes being stupid, and doesn't allow you to grab the ledge until long after IASA frames (and your iframes) end.

However, if you're really close to the edge after your airdodge and you up-B, you'll be able to grab the ledge immediately, letting you stay in invincibility for almost the entire time.

Yaaay.

But... pshh, who wants to recover like Cloud when we already have a fast up-B that snaps to the ledge from afar anyway?

oh wow really? thats cool. But Dolphin Slash is already an amazing recovery move that is quick and snaps on the ledge, lol. Maybe that could be useful

 

[ぱみゅ]

But... pshh, who wants to recover like Cloud when we already have a fast up-B that snaps to the ledge from afar anyway?

who wants to recover like Cloud when we already have a fast, ***INTANGIBLE*** up-B that snaps to the ledge from afar anyway?

 

[Vipermoon]

I've known that at least and since I've only done it accidentally (never thought to do it on purpose), I find it super annoying. Picture it. You need to throw out the Dolphin Slash hitbox right at the ledge but instead you grab it before DS even comes out. A potential stock you didn't get.

It's much harder to do on purpose than Cloud's anyway.

 

[DariusM27]

What's Marth's worst freaking match up, and what character is best to counterpick vs that bad MU character?

For me, it may be SANOC because... you know. SANOC.

 

[JayE]

What's Marth's worst freaking match up, and what character is best to counterpick vs that bad MU character?

For me, it may be SANOC because... you know. SANOC.

Matchups that I struggle with personally with Marth are: Sonic, Diddy, PIkachu. Also since I'm not well experienced in those matchups. Fortunately, I use many characters, and I'm pretty proficient with many of them (if I do say so myself) so I can cover some bad MUs or if I'm not feeling my mains. If I struggle against Sonic with Marth, I'll try ZSS. If I struggle against Pikachu, I'll try Link or Fox. We all have our off days, and sometimes I'm just not feeling the Marth, lol. So sometimes its good to switch it up. Its good in general to have secondaries and more characters.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Could somebody explain this Cloud ledgesnap thingy to me please? Even after reading the above posts, I am still kinds confused to what it is.

I suck

 

[JayE]

Could somebody explain this Cloud ledgesnap thingy to me please? Even after reading the above posts, I am still kinds confused to what it is.

I suck

You can snap the ledge easier when Cloud does his Up b near and right below the ledge after a double jump. M2k does it a lot, you can see him do it in this video.

 

[Vipermoon]

Marth normally is supposed to snap with Uspecial after frame 7 (when he's at least halfway up). But he can also do it sometime before frame 5, before rises at all. I know it's before frame 5 because the hitbox doesn't come out.

 

[CURRY]

maybe it could be useful after a failed two-frame attempt.
double jump bair -> if you're close enough to ledge, you could use this to immediately grab ledge.

I'm mostly seeing it as a recovery mixup where you can double jump airdodge -> up-B instant grab as opposed to just double jumping to ledge without airdodge or fastfall -> up-B to ledge.

 

[DariusM27]

Matchups that I struggle with personally with Marth are: Sonic, Diddy, PIkachu. Also since I'm not well experienced in those matchups. Fortunately, I use many characters, and I'm pretty proficient with many of them (if I do say so myself) so I can cover some bad MUs or if I'm not feeling my mains. If I struggle against Sonic with Marth, I'll try ZSS. If I struggle against Pikachu, I'll try Link or Fox. We all have our off days, and sometimes I'm just not feeling the Marth, lol. So sometimes its good to switch it up. Its good in general to have secondaries and more characters.

I've recently made some great progress against Pikachu and some with Diddy. I think the Pikachu MU is 50/50 and Diddy is 60/40.
I reeeeally suck against a good Lil Mac. I even suck vs DDD - anyone else suck vs DDD?? lol
And SANIC.
I think that maybe Sanic has a tough time vs Robin or Corrin, so I may have to pick up one or both of those characters.

 

[FallenHero]

What's Marth's worst freaking match up, and what character is best to counterpick vs that bad MU character?

For me, it may be SANOC because... you know. SANOC.

I have a tough time against Greninja, but he is even more difficult for me to fight as Marth. Marth's weird hitboxes on some moves and Greninja's really low hurtbox when he is standing plus his mobility makes him really difficult to land hits on. SH fair and SH bair are really good tools for Marth in the neutral, but Greninja has a lot of tools to punish you hard for jumping.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I've recently made some great progress against Pikachu and some with Diddy. I think the Pikachu MU is 50/50 and Diddy is 60/40.
I reeeeally suck against a good Lil Mac. I even suck vs DDD - anyone else suck vs DDD?? lol
And SANIC.
I think that maybe Sanic has a tough time vs Robin or Corrin, so I may have to pick up one or both of those characters.

I also don't particularly enjoy playing Dedede with Marth. He can rival our range with a fair few of his moves, and he just doesn't die. This is a matchup where you almost always HAVE to land a tipper Fsmash.

Uthrow doesn't KO until over 200%.
Tipper Fair won't KO until around 170%, similar with Ftilt.
Usmash isn't exactly great either, due to him surviving the best off of vertical KO moves.
And we can't edgeguard him very well due to his overall good recovery, with multiple jumps, and the biggest kick in the teeth, the super armor Up B.

Dedede is punishable however. The thing I like to do is stay just out of his range, and weave in when he messes up, deal some damage, then get back to that range. Luckily, Marth has the speed and mobility to punish Dedede at this range.

But damn, is it an annoying MU. I mostly just give up and use ZSS for that MU lol.

 

[JayE]

Dedede in general is annoying to fight for me, lol.

 

[DariusM27]

Glad I'm not the only one, lol.
So, based on Mr E's win the other day, anyone see anything innovative that he did? Or was it all pretty standard but good neutral play?
Also, what mistakes did he tend to make, in your opinion?

To me, it seemed like he stumbled his way to victory, with some helpful SDs from other players along the way, but he definitely earned the win. It wasn't a blow out though, that's for sure.

 

[JayE]

Glad I'm not the only one, lol.
So, based on Mr E's win the other day, anyone see anything innovative that he did? Or was it all pretty standard but good neutral play?
Also, what mistakes did he tend to make, in your opinion?

To me, it seemed like he stumbled his way to victory, with some helpful SDs from other players along the way, but he definitely earned the win. It wasn't a blow out though, that's for sure.

I didn't really see anything innovative or super super amazing. it was really close and Mr. E did make a lot of mistakes. My biggest problem with Mr. E that I see is that he does lots of predictable rolls after he gets back on stage, or does panic rolls that get him punished. He rarely used down throw for combos, and didn't really get too many grabs. Also I think he should use up tilt and jab way more, he barely used it.
Most notably at the end of Game 5 in the second set, he jabbed Pink Fresh and could have killed with an up tilt, f tilt, or f smash, but instead did a back air in the opposite direction, but luckily Pink Fresh airdodged to the ground, and that allowed Mr. E to get the grab and up throw for the kill. He did the wrong move but luckily he had enough composure to get the grab for the win. Many of us would be probably be nervous in that close of a situation, too.
The positives I saw were that he was playing patient in those games where he got 2 straight tipper F smashes, he baited out the witch time and spaced himself properly for the kill. I guess thats how you gotta play against Bayonetta sometimes. Mr. E isn't a super flashy or aggro Marth, but maybe there were times where he could have been more confident in his moves.
Sometimes I don't even understand how he does it sometimes. Sometimes I watch him play and I know what he's gonna do, and he gets punished for it. Like in the Losers Finals set vs Tweek, he did fair from the ledge too many times on Cloud's shield and got punished. I feel as if Mr. E occasionally gets predictable, so he needs to do a better job a mixing it up. But the man is clutch with the tippers and he got it done. 'm not discrediting his win at all, I just pointed out some things he could have done better. It still was an intense close set, congratulations to Mr. E for pulling through and getting the W.

 

[Rashyboy05]

Most notably at the end of Game 5 in the second set, he jabbed Pink Fresh and could have killed with an up tilt, f tilt, or f smash, but instead did a back air in the opposite direction, but luckily Pink Fresh airdodged to the ground, and that allowed Mr. E to get the grab and up throw for the kill.

Iirc Mr. E did try to do the Jab1->FSmash combo to Pink Fresh earlier in Grand Finals set but Pink Fresh was able to use Bat Within to escape it (Although I forgot if Pink Fresh was able to punish Mr. E when he did that). I think Mr. E was trying to be careful at that point.

 

[JayE]

Iirc Mr. E did try to do the Jab1->FSmash combo to Pink Fresh earlier in Grand Finals set but Pink Fresh was able to use Bat Within to escape it (Although I forgot if Pink Fresh was able to punish Mr. E when he did that). I think Mr. E was trying to be careful at that point.

yeah he did use Jab to F smash a few times, he got him once but several times Bat within allowed Pink Fresh to escape

 

[ぱみゅ]

Bat Within is just a glorified airdodge.
If Pink Fresh just Airdodged, then a charged Smash would've got him, like any other AD.
If he Jumped+AD then it wasn't a true combo to begin with.

 

[Bowserboy3]

One thing I wanted to congratulate Mr E on in particular was his patience. I'll go out and say that I have often, sometimes quite harshly, slated Mr E for playing Marth too aggressive and trying to push his way in, only to get himself punished. It's for these reasons why I always preferred all the other Marth players over him.

However, at Glitch 2 in general, and the Grand Finals in particular, Mr E was playing a very calculated and careful playstyle that not only is just the better way to approach the Bayonetta MU (with most characters anyway), but is a playstyle that he got thoroughly rewarded for doing.

There wasn't a point during those Grand Final matches where I lost hope and thought "Nah, he's lost this now", and the way he was playing gave me hope.

If you're reading this, Mr E, I take back all I have said about you; you're a great player, and you thoroughly deserved that win! I know I'll be studying that set closely and seeing what I can take away from it (particularly, because I play both Marth and Bayonetta, yay).

 

[DariusM27]

Characters better than Marth, imo

1 Sheik
2 Zss
3 RosaLuma
4 Mario
5 Bayonetta
6 Cloud
7 SANNIC
8 C.Falcon
9 Fox
10 Greninja
11 Mewtwo
12 Metaknight
13 Robin
14 Shulk
15 Megaman
16 Villager
17 Pikachu
18 Samus
19 Diddy
20. Ryu

(Not in order of best to worst - random order)

The characters I chose that are probably most controversial.

Samus
- Can do three attack for every1 Marth does. All moves combo into themselves. Safe neutral vs Marth, can run or jump away almost for free, Marth needs to make big plays hard reads to win.

Mk
- Outclasses Marth neutral. So many options. A good Mk should win 60/40 vs a good Marth.
Robin - Dath, and dath clones

Shulk
- Has a better version of what Marth has in almost every way, except less kill power without using monodos.

Evenly ranked or lower ranked characters that Marth still loses to, imo

Corrin
- A good Corrin wins vs Marth, as Corrin has a safe neutral and Marth really doesn't

Ddd
- Outspaces Marth, gordo stops Marth, frame data about as good as Marth, better grab followups and neutral options.

Dr. Mario
- Hard to kill, we die early, we get combod 4 or 5 times to game over

G&W
- Holy crap G&W. I probably should have put him as ranking higher than Marth, I think he outclasses Marth entirely, but if not, Marth definitely loses the MU unless the G&W makes a LOT of mistakes. Grab combos for days.

Lil Mac - Mac has a huge advantage imo, a good Mac beats a good Marth almost for free half the time, a lot like Falcon and SANNIC

Olimar and Pikman - A Dabuz level Olimar wins easily vs top Marth level play, most of the time, for many seasons.

Rob - Top Marths have been performing well against Rob lately, but Rob still has a huge advantage in the MU and controls the match, imo

Characters not yet listed that Marth goes even with
Bowser
Browser Jr
Charzard
Dk
Duck Hunt (we may lose to him too though)
Pit Darkpit
Falco
Ike
Ganon
Kirby
Link (May be in Links favor though)
Ness Lucas
Luigi
Pacman (We may lose this one)
Palutena
Peach
Roy
TLink (We may lose this one)
Wario
WiiFit
Yoshi
Zelda
Lucario


Characters Marth beats for free
Jigglypuff - obviously

So, besides Jiggs, Marth has no easy wins. And no one uses Jiggs, so in other words, Marth has no easy wins. All are dead even or stacked against Marth. Perhaps there are matches where Marth has a clear advantage besides Jiggs, but I doubt it.

I would like to see what other Marth mains think about this subject and this list. It's clear to me that Marth is currently ranked too high, even if you subtract 4 or 5 from my list, that seems undeniable to me.

I think Marth can beat any character and lose to any character.

Also, Mk Leo's Marth is God Tier, until further notice.

 

[Shaya]

You're really pessimistic about Marth, and either base your opinions on wifi TOO MUCH and/or don't understand neutral or at least how Marth's works.
Marth is implicitly one of the safest neutrals in the cast. You may go "ZeRo is just bad against Marth/Lucina" (although has only lost once), or you could observe that this character goes near even with DIDDY KONG in neutral on multiple occasions and start to evaluate what that means.


I'd say there's 8 characters in your top 20 that Marth are either definitely better than or similar in 'power level'.
Marth's a very good character - between bigger range and disjoint, higher shield stun and shield safety across the board compared to Brawl and a bogus jab, he's insanely strong and outclasses most of the cast in just about every department.

Match ups may not seem easy, but he scales purely with fundamentals, game skills and understanding (but post buff his precision requirements are shallow compared to before/other top tiers like Sheik and ZSS).
Beyond Sonic and maybe Sheik (+Pika? iono skeptical), there aren't any match ups left that impose heavily on Marth or his success. He may not be top 10, but he has a top ten match up spread for sure.

 

[Vipermoon]

I liked Shaya's post because I felt that I had to pick a side. However, I do feel that Shaya was exaggerating on a couple of things. Still, I think he's spot-on as far as critiquing your analysis goes, Darius.

 

[Shaya]

S'pose outclassing most of the cast is steep without some constraints.
He's above average in a lot of things, then he has the range which is better than everyone essentially, averageish frame data (which combined with the range is great~), but kinda importantly: insane KO power/diversity across his kit (only move he has that doesn't KO is like down tilt [2framer/run off stage aerial set ups exist], jab is a direct KO set up, potent up throw from grab)- but the overall combination does outclass most of everyone.
If it wasn't for jab being blatantly broke (I'll take it, as otherwise he would mostly be a downgrade to Brawl - killing enthusiasm, and the way it sets pace and control is kinda beautiful/exciting).

Also holy moly some of these Lucina supporters; they've become super radicalized in recent times.
It's a weird cultural clash thing... new age/wifi/discord players all think Lucina is near to / just as good, that nothing Marth can do she cannot [that's wrong] while also hyping up db1 to nair1 [bit of irony here seeing as I hyped this up (before realising the truth) in Brawl, shame it's not remotely real nor have you likely ever seen it work offline]. Meanwhile Brawl/older remnants understand that Marth not spacing every hit purposely isn't actually Marth and yet 'Marth' is still better than Lucina at that level of inconsistent and "randy" play.
(enemy day or something).

 

[Vipermoon]

S'pose outclassing most of the cast is steep without some constraints.
He's above average in a lot of things, then he has the range which is better than everyone essentially, averageish frame data (which combined with the range is great~), but kinda importantly: insane KO power/diversity across his kit (only move he has that doesn't KO is like down tilt [2framer/run off stage aerial set ups exist], jab is a direct KO set up, potent up throw from grab)- but the overall combination does outclass most of everyone.
If it wasn't for jab being blatantly broke (I'll take it, as otherwise he would mostly be a downgrade to Brawl - killing enthusiasm, and the way it sets pace and control is kinda beautiful/exciting).

Also holy moly some of these Lucina supporters; they've become super radicalized in recent times.
It's a weird cultural clash thing... new age/wifi/discord players all think Lucina is near to / just as good, that nothing Marth can do she cannot [that's wrong] while also hyping up db1 to nair1 [bit of irony here seeing as I hyped this up (before realising the truth) in Brawl, shame it's not remotely real nor have you likely ever seen it work offline]. Meanwhile Brawl/older remnants understand that Marth not spacing every hit purposely isn't actually Marth and yet 'Marth' is still better than Lucina at that level of inconsistent and "randy" play.
(enemy day or something).

What makes you think Lucina is a definite downgrade v. Marth? Marth's EZ tippers (the ones that were buffed) exist, yes, but Lucina does more damage on average and still kills early enough. I don't think she can be that much worse given this.

SH DB1 into aerial is something one could try OoS or after Jab to style/rack some damage but you're absolutely right that it doesn't deserve its hype. People mostly forgot about it anyway.

 

[Shaya]

Difficult to understand until you do (I've stated several reasons in just the post you're quoting), but it's the notion of spacing (I'm not referring to getting tipper fsmash/etc or other such hard-to-space-things) is purposeful and skill dependent and underpins everything the character does. I purposely space and anticipate things in a way that equates to tippers, I know when to not attack and when to attack, most of the time successfully. Disadvantage state is very poorly understood (seems to overlap heavily in the minds of many as 'neutral') and hence I see an overrating of Lucina's abilities in contrast to Marth because momentum breaking hits (which shouldn't actually be happening often at high level) favours her or is at least roughly even; and low level players are likely spending most of their time abusing enemy's inabilities to maintain advantage, hence deludes the perspective of players. The reality is Marth's REAL neutral state and advantage openings are definitively stronger in what works out to be essentially every single match up in the game.

KO power and diversity is extremely skewed in Marth's favour beyond Fsmash and Up Smash (up smash not being overly significant); as stated in the above quote. Lucina is finding KOs from smash attacks and in corner situations (aerials) that Marth can KO enormously earlier in with about twice as many moves.

Damage output arguments at the level of analysis I've read are inherently biased in one direction - there are many more factors to consider in any given situation let alone the game as a whole rather than just the 1-dimensional metric of %.
Quantifying 'I have to avoid fsmash or bair off stage' vs 'I have to avoid fsmash, ftilt, fair, bair, nair, uair, db, up tilt, jab [at more percent], etc' is close to impossible - "oh marth hit a sour spot, Lucina would've done 1.5% more, oh this smash attack that hit would've killed 20% earlier on Lucina' only reflect on so much. It's a shame that the reverse analysis isn't feasible *cough*... for some bizarre reason (i.e. Marth main apartheid). Or it's difficult because 1. very little tournament level Lucina game play, 2. you would be grabbing at straws to make specific conclusions; unless you assume every move choice was optimal for both characters although a KO option like jab to tipper aerial is available and faster than Lucina needing to smash attack - what if it fails to hit?

In Brawl/Melee, when a player comes along and asks for assistance on how to get better, there is no excuse like "oh you can't tipper all the time" (although you HAVE TO MOST OF THE TIME or YOU WILL LOSE) - it's literally an unbending critique that you have to learn to space and move better as to allow the incidents of sour spots to happen less often (although in S4 sour spots are actually worth spacing for - adding more to the Marth argument IMO).

I respect opinions from top Marths that say there are some match ups Lucina is better in - although I wouldn't agree to it being a long term forecast. Furthermore I could ultimately see Lucina bridging the gap overtime, rather than widening it. But I'm yet to see a Lucina expert argue in her favour while also being extremely competent with Marth / having a high level background to him to really diffuse my thoughts. Perhaps I overrate the depth differences to them as well.

 

[DariusM27]

You're really pessimistic about Marth, and either base your opinions on wifi TOO MUCH and/or don't understand neutral or at least how Marth's works.
Marth is implicitly one of the safest neutrals in the cast. You may go "ZeRo is just bad against Marth/Lucina" (although has only lost once), or you could observe that this character goes near even with DIDDY KONG in neutral on multiple occasions and start to evaluate what that means.


I'd say there's 8 characters in your top 20 that Marth are either definitely better than or similar in 'power level'.
Marth's a very good character - between bigger range and disjoint, higher shield stun and shield safety across the board compared to Brawl and a bogus jab, he's insanely strong and outclasses most of the cast in just about every department.

Match ups may not seem easy, but he scales purely with fundamentals, game skills and understanding (but post buff his precision requirements are shallow compared to before/other top tiers like Sheik and ZSS).
Beyond Sonic and maybe Sheik (+Pika? iono skeptical), there aren't any match ups left that impose heavily on Marth or his success. He may not be top 10, but he has a top ten match up spread for sure.

"You disagree with me, so you must be a bad scrub"

I asked for other's opinions on the matchup spread.

I said constantly "IMO = In MY opinion"

Why did you have to try and turn it into a Tip waving contest.

I asked for opinions, not personal criticism to me as a player.

The top 10 ranked players in the world all have very very different opinions.

Just because ESAM ranked Pikachu as perhaps no.1 and Zero ranked Pikachu...so low I cant remember but it was mid high tier at best... Does NOT mean that ESAM doesn't understand the game or any of that crap.

I don't go to tournys because I have 2 kids and work a lot, but in friendlies I've taken several games from Kero, WOOD, and Darkshad, which are among the highest ranking players in BSS (I haven't played JDB yet, he's no.1) And Darkshad beat Nairo.

I've gone even with the best Marth players that have played me, including BelakxVibe.

https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCHgVqnUBAHwiaVrpLUmf2Hw
Edit, fixed link

Go to my channel and in every single video you'll see me get KOs and techs that I am willing to bet you have never pulled off, and probably couldn't if you tried. I'm not trying to be overly salty here, if you actually watch a few, you'll see if I was right.
And I'm guessing you haven't done those techs because no Marth player I've seen uses nair1 to combo into Fsmash from every possible approach option, and land it consistently.
And I haven't seen any Marth do a perfect shield option select into an fsmash.

But anyway, none of that is relevant in the first place, you brought it up, and the subject at hand is Marths MUs.

So...

I don't think I'm being pessimistic. I would rather fight a Sheik or a Cloud than a really good Samus, sometimes. Don't forget that Samus has ranked highly before.

Like I said, IMO, Marth can beat anyone hard, and IMO he can lose to anyone hard.

I don't think any character is above 60 40 on Marth.

Edit

I liked Shaya's post because I felt that I had to pick a side. However, I do feel that Shaya was exaggerating on a couple of things. Still, I think he's spot-on as far as critiquing your analysis goes, Darius.

I can appreciate that. I don't mind at all if no one agrees with how I see it exactly. That's what I was looking for, differing opinions, to learn from.

I went through the trouble of going character by character. If other people could throw in more specific matchups, I think that would be helpful.

 

[Shaya]

Asides from saying you -may- not understand Marth's neutral specifically; as you referred to it several times in your justifications that I disagree with, that wasn't the intention nor inherently a 'scrub' accusation, I know you're competent. I appreciate you pointing out many top players have bad opinions on things .
Oh and wifi skews my opinions too, hence the quip (my health means my personal tournament activity is pretty low key at this stage too, I rapidly discover the meaning of the universe when I go from playing against Cloud as ZSS online to offline as an example; also much respect to you for being a father and being apart of the community).

Pessimism was otherwise the generalization of my 'argument' (although more of a critique as I didn't devoid your opinions of any specific logic) - Marth may not be one of the best characters in the game, that's quite possible, but we're not seeing it right now. Not losing any match ups worse than 40:60 across a very dominant top tier cast (for the most part) is pretty excellent though and as it's apart of your argument but you don't see him as top 20 I think many would see that as pessimistic.

Not sure what specific tech/KO set ups do to an argument or discussion that's skewed towards definitions and nuances of neutral in smash (a pretty complicated topic) and match ups, but I don't particularly care or rate a player's abilities much due to them. Also you didn't link your channel (I've seen some of your stuff before and have been impressed), but I very much doubt you'll convince me nair1 set ups are much more than gimmicks (but prove me wrong, passion of any form for a character will be fruitful), but I do play Roy, who I put quite a bit of nair1 work into (because he has a 20frame SHFF, contrasting to Marth's 28), but don't proactively go for it much anymore (up air or tipper bair overlap), but the landing slide allows him to do janky jab which can combo into fsmash/usmash [kinda like how diddy down tilt from glide tosses can combo into fsmash, the hitbox magic of sliding positions are mint); but you won't be seeing it much beyond people attempting to style.

You'd probably be better off linking vids of you playing match ups that you were referring to instead.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Regardless of who it is you're talking about, I always enjoy reading your posts Shaya because you go quite in depth in a way that I only wish I could. They're always extremely interesting to read, so thanks for that! Also thanks Darius for starting this discussion.

I'm just glad we can actually argue about how good our character is; it's far more interesting than playing a character that could be considered stagnant, for example.

I wish I could add more into this discussion, and while I consider myself fairly knowledgable on the character and the game in general, there's not much I can add, but here's my view; a character that gets results is good. Marth is getting good results, consistently too (better at top level than even some characters ranked higher than him IIRC [Ryu? Ness? Corrin?]). Do the math.

 

[DariusM27]

Asides from saying you -may- not understand Marth's neutral specifically; as you referred to it several times in your justifications that I disagree with, that wasn't the intention nor inherently a 'scrub' accusation, I know you're competent. Oh and wifi skews my opinions too, hence the quip (my health means my personal tournament activity is pretty low key at this stage too, I rapidly discover the meaning of the universe when I go from playing against Cloud as ZSS online to offline as an example; also much respect to you for being a father of two).

Pessimism was otherwise the generalization of my 'argument' (although more of a critique as I didn't devoid your opinions of any specific logic) - Marth may not be one of the best characters in the game, that's quite possible, but we're not seeing it right now. Not losing any match ups worse than 40:60 across a very dominant top tier cast (for the most part) is pretty excellent though and as it's apart of your argument but you don't see him as top 20 I think many would see that as pessimistic.

Not sure what specific tech/KO set ups do to an argument or discussion that's skewed towards definitions and nuances of neutral in smash (a pretty complicated topic) and match ups, but I don't particularly care or rate your abilities much due to them (also you didn't link your channel, but I've seen some of your stuff before and have been impressed), but I very much doubt you'll convince me nair1 set ups are much more than gimmicks (but prove me wrong, passion of any form for a character will be fruitful), but I do play Roy, who I put quite a bit of nair1 work into (because he has a 20frame SHFF, contrasting to Marth's 28), but don't proactively go for it much anymore- it's a good reactive punish for him though, and the landing slide allows him to do sliding jab which will combo into fsmash/usmash [kinda like how diddy down tilt from glide tosses can combo into fsmash, the hitbox magic of sliding positions are mint); but you won't be seeing any Roy talk about it let alone execute it~ wew diversions.

You'd probably be better off linking vids of you playing match ups that you were referring to instead.

"Asides from saying you -may- not understand Marth's neutral specifically"
I understand Marth's neutral inside and out.

"you don't see him as top 20 I think many would see that as pessimistic."
No, I don't. I think Mk Leo, Pug, and Mr E got their big wins through hard work, grit, guts, and raw skill.
Marth's grab - throw - combo game is effectively non existent at higher percents vs good players who know the MU.
Most of those characters have excellent KO setups too, and most are WAY easier (requires less skill) to master, IMO. As you said, Marth scales with fundamentals.

"You may go "ZeRo is just bad against Marth/Lucina" (although has only lost once),
He has said that he IS bad vs Marcina and doesn't know the MU very well.

"you could observe that this character goes near even with DIDDY KONG in neutral on multiple occasions and start to evaluate what that means."
What occasions and who are you referring to? Off the top of my head I'm thinking... the Mr E vs ZeRo matches... and that's it? And the one Zonoto vs E set.
That's not at all a large sample size - of either various players - or many games - to draw a conclusion that Marth has arrived as Diddy's equal.

It seems more likely that it's just Mr E raising his game to that level, and I wouldn't want to take that credit away from him - when he's the only one doing it in that MU.

Beside Mr E there might be 3 people at most who could match his performance output (Leo, False, Pug) - although Leo is not as weathered as Mr E, and False and Pug have - get this - FAILING performance lately. But what are we talking about, 4 Marth's at most?
Now, how many ZeRo - Zonoto - MVD clones are there?
Heck, I bet any one of us could pick up Diddy today and perform just as well or better than ever - because Diddy controls matches, and almost every good Smash player knows how to use Diddy because we've watched ZeRo since game's launch.
ZeRo said before that there is pretty much nowhere for the Diddy meta to go. It is what it is. Diddy's just such a solid neutral character that it doesn't matter greatly that he may not have any more tricks up his sleeve.

Like - this Zonoto vs E game
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYUoSBPjYYA
What I see is perhaps the BEST Marth in the world struggle against an easily replicated style. A valiant effort vs a MU stacked against Marth. That's what I see in the Diddy vs Marth MU.

Sorry, I beat that point to death, but hey, hope we are having fun.

"I very much doubt you'll convince me nair1 set ups are much more than gimmicks (but prove me wrong"

Gladly.
You said "jab is a direct KO set up" and it's "broke"
I was able to get Jab1 to Fsmash/Ftilt to true combo at around 120% just now. With rage, we can deduct 10% or more depending on how much Marth has.

If Nair1 is a gimmick, then Jab1 is a sad joke.

Here you go - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kMXUF_mBu8

Nair1 true combos into Fsmash as early as 75%, but I get it consistently/easily at 80%.
...I do, your results may vary.
In fact, the moves happen in such quick succession that it strings really well at earlier percents, and if the spacing doesn't look right to me, I could do literally any other option.

Here's a small montage I made for fun. I may make a montage of all the Nair1 Fsmash KOs I've gotten, but it would be over 10 mins long if I clipped them back to back. I often land it off the opponents wiffed dash attack or dash grab - jump back nair1 range/disjoint just wins. I don't even save the replays anymore unless I get a new approach I've been working on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZC3J6JJaVgo

There are many ways to get it to work, and the added Nair range is great - we don't even have to dashcancel to tip the Fsmash like I did before the range/damage buffs.

Edit ---
There are very particular situations where, once I get the read on their movement, then it's in the bag. It works on catching landings, rolls, spotdodges, laggy moves/smashes, ect.

Also, if the SPACED tipper nair1 hits shield, I can spotdodge, shield, roll, up b, jab, - whatever.

-----

I really hope you don't continue to diss it, because misinformation may hurt the meta :/ Just because you can't or haven't done it, doesn't mean it's not a thing :/

This post has gotten super long so I'll cut it here. If you need to know anything else, just let me know.

I'd like the conversation to get back to where Marth stands in the MUs.

Maybe we could start with one category like - What characters do you think Marth beats easily - assuming both players are roughly equal and high skill with their character?
I would like to know some various views on that.

Like I said - for me, Jiggs. Marth woops that ball of cotton candy for free.

 

[Bowserboy3]

But what are we talking about, 4 Marth's at most?

Don't forget Fuwa of Japan.

But lets be real, those are just the "notable" players. 4/5 players alone haven't gotten Marth's whole results total; in short, those 4/5 players haven't gotten combined all Marth's results. There's a reason why for example, Marth has the 14th best top 16 results, and 16th best top 8 results total in 1.1.6, and those 4/5 players alone didn't get them all alone (source - https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/#post-21234525)

Sure, you could argue that the top level results matter the most, and only those 4/5 players ever seem to get enough exposure or results. Yes, that's true. If Marth's only results were just at top level, and by just those players, you could then have a fiar argument to say that it's just player skill.

However, even at lower level, Marth is still getting the results, and becoming one of those characters people watch out for. This is also quite notable notable. As mentioned above, if Marth's only results were from the top level players, it could be perceived as player skill, but Marth is getting the results at lower level too, proving it's not just player skill, and that actually, the character must have something going about him. Not every character can perform well at both low and top level (take characters like Falco, Bowser etc), but Marth has shown to be able to. Even the little unknown players like me and you are pushing Marth. I myself even managed to win my local last Wednesday using primarily Marth (not because I needed to swap characters, I'll add, but because I wanted to use Rosalina for a set). It wasn't easy either, having to go through many different characters, such as Diddy, ZSS, and arguably the best player in our area, a Captain Falcon player, another MU Marth supposedly has trouble in (though I think otherwise, but that's a different matter).

Basically, what I am getting at is that Marth has a big amount of results, and they aren't just from his notable players. Sure, anybody can win a local/monthly for example, but even then, it's rare it's an obscure character. Characters like Sheik, Diddy, Bayonetta, Mario and Marth all get results at both low and top level on a common basis, for example. In turn, characters like Kirby, Bowser, DK, Ganondorf, Puff, and even perceived good characters like Falcon, Pikachu and Yoshi, almost always get results at one level (for the first group, lower level), or don't get results at high level consistently enough (mainly the second group).

The game is young; MU's are still being figured out, and in the most case, Marth's are almost all getting better as opposed to getting figured out and becoming worse; of note, Marth does decently well, and I'll even state that he could have/has even MU's against a fair amount of the top tiers; Diddy, Mario, Cloud, Ryu (if you want to consider him top tier), are good examples for one reason or another. He handles the rest of the top tiers fairly decently as well; Fox is decent if you know what you're doing and don't do blatantly punishable things. Marth could even be potentially even with Rosalina for one reason or another, but she doesn't give him as much trouble as other characters (in the fact that characters like Mario, or Ryu even struggle against Rosalina more than Marth does). ZSS isn't as harsh any more, with Marth having enough tools at his disposal to safely bait out reactions from ZSS and has the ability to punish her with better reward. Heck, if you even want to consider Ness higher than Marth, Marth has everything he could need to beat Ness too. Marth's potential worst MU's are against Sheik and Sonic, but even they have been improved up on and shown by his top players to be do-able, on more than one occasion. DK could be a legitimately troublesome MU, and then we have characters like Pikachu or Captain Falcon that have always been iffy (though once again, I'll stand by my point that Marth does not lose to Falcon, of course this is just my opinion).

But lets consider all the iffy ones bad too. How many bad MU's is that... what, 5? Perhaps I am being optimistic, or perhaps there are just a couple of characters I missed, so lets say potentially 6 bad MU's for fairness... that's incredibly strong when you have a cast of 58 characters. It's not even like Marth is just that character that rides off of having decent MU's; he's also a notable counter/threat to at least a couple of top tiers, or characters ranked higher than him. That alone speaks volumes about his true viability.Basically, the fact that Marth can even be a potential threat to some top tiers helps keep him aloft; heck, why do you think Meta Knight is still so viable?

Also remember that how well a character performs against the most relevant characters in the meta impacts a great deal on their viability. For example, Ike and R.O.B. were ranked theoretically much lower than they could be due to their inability to deal with Meta Knight. Wolf for example does much better against the top tiers and Meta Knight than aforementioned characters, so this improves his tier ranking, for example. While no character is currently as polarising as Meta Knight, if a character has a huge roadblock against a top tier, then it can impact their true viability a lot. Marth's real bad MU's in top level are arguably Sheik and Sonic, but even they aren't terrible, 40:60 at worst. In short, they don't stop him performing much.

Overall, there's not much reason to say Marth can't be top 20 at all. With every passing day, something new seems to appear in the positive favour of Marth, whether it be a new discovery that makes a MU easier, or some more results. Right now, Marth doesn't really have a reason not to be considered a good character. Maybe he could fall in the future, but as of now, he's a pretty strong character. Unless other slept upon/less developed "mid" tier character (Robin, Olimar?) start to improve, I don't see any reason in reality why Marth will fall. Players have had more than enough time to "adapt" to him, but even now, Marth is still performing fantastically (Glitch 2).

I respect you, Darius, no doubt. There is such as thing as completely "under-playing" your character, so to speak. While players can often blatantly overplay their character's strengths (hi ESAM), it appears you are doing the opposite. I hope my ramblings can at least add something to the discussion.

 

[JayE]

Marth is at least Top 20 or so in my eyes. The Hero King has some of the best punish game in all of smash, some of the best edgeguarding and recovery. He possesses some of the best comeback potential too, lying within the tippered blade of the Falchion.
Not just the tournament Marths are good. They are the most notable and popular Marths, but doesn't mean there aren't any other sick Marth players around (like myself :D) Its exciting to see other players pick up Marth again and watching his meta develop. And honestly its kinda scary fighting Marth sometimes, knowing that he can kill you hella early and edgeguard you hard. Especially with other characters that get dominated by his range and edgeguarding, quickness and strength. Maybe thats partially why I dislike the Marth ditto, lol.
I don't think his matchup spread is too bad either, he can hold his own against many others. The only super noticable matchups that I see that Marth may have a bad time against are & (well thats also my struggle) since Marth has the tall character problem against short opponents like or .
After all the time playing Marth, I've become better against top tier characters that I've heard many people say Marth lose to, such as , , .
I don't typically delve too deep into matchup ratios, I just play Marth and generally know his strengths and weaknesses, and try to do my best. You can't win them all, so fortunately I'm proficient with many other characters to switch it up for fun or just incase my Marth isn't playing well or losing. But overall in my opinion, Marth is a solid character and a force to be reckoned with in any smash game.

 

[Bowserboy3]

That might be a good place to start, if we respond to Darius and list our own personal opinions.

I'm going list my opinions on Marth in terms of MU's, but include just top/high tiers, or notable MU's (either that Marth wins or loses), based on just my opinions, observations and experiences. It will be debatable, because it is of course, my opinion, but I don't feel anything I am about to say will be too out of the ordinary. Here goes...

---

Spoiler: Tough MU's

- While legitimately makes Marth sweat in terms of frame data, her last set of nerfs have made it clear to me through personal experience and watching players like Leo that this MU is no longer as feared as I once though; it used to be one of Marth's worst, if not his clear worst MU in my opinion, and while Sheik does indeed still have a fair few KO setups, she does still struggle to seal out the stock. Against Sheik, unless she early edgeguards Marth now, the more precent she adds onto him, the scarier he becomes, due to rage. It's almost like a Lucario situation, in the fact that most good tippered moves will KO her. The longer she leaves Marth alive, the more threatening he becomes, and the game almost becomes a game of mutual respect, with each character no longer able to rush in and dominate. Once I am able, I'll upload my own personal example; managing to avoid death by Sheik, me being at around 140%, and KO'ing her near the ledge at 80% with a tipper Fair (why is this even allowed again?). Sheik is still a slight disadvantage for Marth, but I have far less trouble than before, but I don't think she is his worst MU right now. One of them, yes, but not the clear worst. Plus, top Marth players have shown us on more than one occasion that it's not an impossible MU.

- is much the same boat for me, but I recognise this one being a little more "annoying", so to speak. Sonic's raw frame data doesn't overwhelm Marth like Sheik, but his sheer speed can make landing a KO on him pretty tough. While Spin Dash can be punished (if Marth shields) when Sonic jumps from it with a Bair or Uair, it's still not enough to account for the fact that Marth can struggle to get close to Sonic at the best of times. This is a MU where the sheer utility of Dancing Blade as an easy punish option becomes clear; without it, it would be nigh on impossible to get a decent punish on Sonic. A well times Dtilt can stop Spin Dash, however, and Marth does have that huge sword for the mid-range shinanigans, so it's not all doom and gloom, but boy this MU is tough. I'd say, like Sheik, it's one of his hardest MU's but it's been shown to be do-able by his top players.

Now onto the iffy MU's.

- I used to think was an incredibly difficult MU for Marth, and in reality, it still is very tough, but Marth's last set of buffs really helped him here. Marth still suffers with Pikachu being small and quite nimble, the tough combination of making it relatively hard to space tippers when vital, but once again, Marth's last set of buffs allow him to just put hitboxes out a lot more freely in a way that Pikachu just now has to respect. Before, Pikachu could stand safely at the mid range, and be in an area to punish Marth in a way that made it still slightly risky for him to space. Now, Marth can put out hitboxes like Jab 1, Ftilt and even space tipper Fair much more reliably against Pikachu - Ftilt in particular is a move that can outright make Pikachu sweat when at mid range, with it's range and recovery enough to keep Marth safe. Pikachu also does struggle getting KO's reliably, and actually lacks very many reliable KO setups. While his raw KO power is better than that of say Sheik, actually getting in on Marth to get the KO can be a tough thing for Pikachu now, but in turn, Marth still has a tough time landing that tipper on Pikachu. I'm overall unsure whether this is a true disadvantage for Marth, or whether it is just a tiny advantage for Pikachu... I'm not sure.

- isn't as notable an annoyance as Sheik or Sonic, but he does make Marth's like tougher. Essentially, he can trade hits with Marth all day if he needs to thanks to his fantastic Bair, and actually KO'ing DK can be a pain without a tipper, due to him being very heavy. Once again, Marth's range buffs make spacing easier and trading hits less common, but they still happen and DK's Bair can single-handedly stop most of Marth's approaches.

- can also be in particular annoying for Marth, if just for pellets and Marth not really having an answer to them. Marth's overall range is nice at the mid range, as it ourtanges everything Mega Man has, and once again has the tools to edgeguard his predictable recovery, but actually getting close to Mega Man and playing an effective neutral and spacing game is tough because of pellets. Let me just say I am glad Mega Man isn't too common (in a sense; it would be nice to see more Marth v Mega Man to get some ideas on how to combat him).

Spoiler: Do-able, Even, or Advantageous

- While still often considered a tough MU for him, I do not see how beats Marth. If anything, I feel at worst, it's a 45:55, but I think ideally, it's even, with there even being 55:45 potential for Marth. Once again, the buffs gave Marth a way to safely bait out and threaten Captain Falcon (this is going to be a common thing now); Captain Falcon can't just rush in as easily as he could before, as a Jab 1 will lead into an Utilt into a short combo, a grab into a small aerial combo string, a Dancing Blade, an aerial, all of which work a lot easier on Falcon due to him being heavy and a fast faller. Falcon is certainly trying to get in and get the momentum on his side, but Marth has many tools to keep him out, and off stage, Falcon is virtually praying for Marth to mess up or whiff a recovery intercept. It's incredibly easy to keep him from coming back to the stage, even if it's just the simple things like drop from ledge, Bair, grab ledge, repeat etc. In general, I feel Marth now threatens Falcon in neutral more, and has the tools to pressure him very easily and safely in one of his weakest areas, being his recovery. I also have lots and lots of experience in the MU, so I might be a little biased, but I feel very strongly about this one and I feel it's only a matter of time until one of Marth's top players comes and proves to us that the MU is not bad for Marth, like...

- . I've explained this one here before, so I'll keep it short this time. In short, Marth out spaces/plays the spacing game better than Cloud due to having in general quicker face to face aerials and quicker tilts. He has an option to beat out almost anything Cloud does, be it Utilt, Usmash or even Counter beating his best approach options in Dair, Fair or Ftilt beating out his Fair or Nair, and having all the tools a character could need to edgeguard him, with quick disjointed aerials, and a Counter move, which outright stops Up B to the ledge if Marth is hanging from it. My theory is backed up by players like Leo and Mr E consistently beating Cloud in tournament settings using the aforementioned tools. I even feel Marth has a minor advantage over Cloud, honestly, but at worst, I know the MU is at least even.

- also isn't too tough for Marth in the fact that it's harder for Rosalina to space and wall Marth out with Luma due to him having a long ranged disjointed weapon, now with enough speed and safety to be unpunishable in many situations. Marth doesn't really have a safe answer to her Uair juggles, and once Marth gets caught inbetween her and Luma, it can be tough to safely escape, but in short, once again, Marth out does her off stage, and has a better time than most actually combating Luma. Could be iffy due to Uair shinanigans, but I feel this will pan out as solidly even in due time (if it isn't already).

- Another MU I feel is even, if not slightly advantageous for Marth is . This MU is a heck of a lot harder and more troublesome for Marth when in comparison to Melee and Brawl (I personally found the MU in Brawl a joke), but due to Mario's flaw of still struggling against high range, and in turn, disjoint, tied in with Marth's overall safety and ability to safely press buttons, makes this still relatively tough for Mario. Mario will also often be in the perfect range for a tipper, because that is the range that Mario will be trying to bait a character out with his Bair, for example, and it just doesn't work as well against Marth because that's the perfect range for him to tipper. The off stage game, once again, is still quite threatening for Mario; having to contend with a huge fast sword off stage is not nice. Mario now has a lot of good tools to even the game back up in a cinch though, but it's like that with almost any MU for him. Overall, I feel Marth threatens Mario more than the opposite case, but Marth must still be careful of Mario getting the momentum.

- is another MU that I used to hate, but am slowly getting to understand more. Once again, the last set of buffs for Marth made it easier and more rewarding to fight at the mid range against Toon Link, where it is a lot harder for him to fight; he either likes to play the long range game with projectiles, or the close range game with his tilts to attempt combos. In short, I feel this MU is pretty even, and am awaiting solid proof to say why it is one way or the other.

- In a similar fashion, I am also waiting for solid proof to say that is one way or the other. I personally haven't had too much trouble against Bayonetta, and am inclined to say it's even right now. In fact, when Marth has the lead on Bayonetta, there's not much Bayonetta can do if Marth just wants to play the dumb shielding and punishing game. Of course, like (who I will also say I am waiting for proof on one way or the other), Bayonetta can bring the tide of the game into her favour at any point of the game, but then again, so can Marth, so this MU can be quite tough to predict. While people may point to Mr E vs Pink Fresh as proof that Marth can beat Bayonetta, I want more solid proof before I say that. Bayonetta is just too fickle.

- also isn't very annoying for Marth as much, with him having enough tools to bait her and punish her reactions. This one could still very much be in ZSS's favour, but both characters have the potential to take control in almost an instant, it's tough to pinpoint. In general, ZSS just doesn't seem to like large swords, especially in the air (at least, from my experience). Not too troublesome, but not a MU Marth has a free easy time in.

- can give Marth some jip; his tail is essentially a sword in most cases, and his Fair does what Marth wishes he could do with his. Mewtwo's big frame and awkward tumble animation makes him suprisingly easy to hit and tip, and Mewtwo must respect Marth's overall disjoint, because it's still overall safer than Mewtwo's tail, either trading hits with him or just getting outright hit by Marth's sword. Mewtwo's overall speed can overwhelm Marth if he's not careful, but Jab 1 also stops most of Mewtwo's close range attempts too, so he must be wary of that before heading in.

- is another peculiar MU; Marth doesn't lose this, so to speak, and it's generally pretty easy to combo and beat Fox off stage, but it can be tougher to space against Fox due to his overall speed. Once again, Jab 1 is your friend. Fox doesn't like getting hit by it. In short, not a terrible MU, but if you aren't careful, Fox can easily overhwelm Marth.

- I confidently feel Marth beats ; he has the tools to outspace him and exploit his overall below average range, and has the better/safer neutral game. Marth's Counter may as well just be Gravitational Pull off stage too; Countering PK Thunder 2 is often enough at any percent off stage to edgeguard Ness, and is easy to do so by staying on the ledge.

- I also feel Marth beats , if only for the fact that Marth has the overall better spacing game, and has more than enough tools to punish Corrin's Side B, even if Dancing Blade is all you need. Corrin's overall sluggish movement can hinder his ability in this MU, as Marth has a much easier time spacing around Corrin than Corrin does to Marth. Corrin's overall combo game does help compensate though, but Marth has more than enough tools to keep Corrin out, and punish that darned Side B.

- is one I can't reliably comment on, but I don't see why Meta Knight would give Marth much trouble outside of giving him some trouble off stage, but even then, all Marth needs to do is just save his jump and recover low. Marth beats Meta Knight in air to air combat due to his increased range, and also has the tools to space against him relatively well. Marth can't edgeguard Meta Knight at all though, so this one is likely closer to even.

Then there are MU's like and who I have seen and heard could either be potentially even, or even in Marth's favour, but to be honest, I lack sufficient knowledge to prove otherwise in reality, so I won't try and spout much theorycraft. I do know that once again, Ftilt can stop most of Diddy's aerial approaches hard, and that Ryu doesn't particularly like Marth's disjointed range, especially off stage, but I'll leave it there.

Then there are some characters like which Marth does in particular very well against, but almost every other character in the game, I feel Marth can easilt handle, one way or another. Yes, there are a few annoying and tough MU's like, but they are far less troublesome than any of the others I have mentioned, in my opinion.

Please be aware that these are just my opinions. You are more than welcome to try and change my mind, or help me out by explaining some MU's further than I could. I feel I did a decent job at explaining them though, and feel that nothing I said is too absurd. In short, I feel Marth doesn't have that bad an overall MU spread, and a pretty solid one against the rest of the top/high tiers too, adding more to his overall viability. I'd be interested in seeing others opinions too, mind.

 

[Vipermoon]

Characters better than Marth, imo

1 Sheik
2 Zss
3 RosaLuma
4 Mario
5 Bayonetta
6 Cloud
7 SANNIC
8 C.Falcon
9 Fox
10 Greninja
11 Mewtwo
12 Metaknight
13 Robin
14 Shulk
15 Megaman
16 Villager
17 Pikachu
18 Samus
19 Diddy
20. Ryu

(Not in order of best to worst - random order)

The characters I chose that are probably most controversial.

Samus
- Can do three attack for every1 Marth does. All moves combo into themselves. Safe neutral vs Marth, can run or jump away almost for free, Marth needs to make big plays hard reads to win.

Mk
- Outclasses Marth neutral. So many options. A good Mk should win 60/40 vs a good Marth.
Robin - Dath, and dath clones

Shulk
- Has a better version of what Marth has in almost every way, except less kill power without using monodos.

Evenly ranked or lower ranked characters that Marth still loses to, imo

Corrin
- A good Corrin wins vs Marth, as Corrin has a safe neutral and Marth really doesn't

Ddd
- Outspaces Marth, gordo stops Marth, frame data about as good as Marth, better grab followups and neutral options.

Dr. Mario
- Hard to kill, we die early, we get combod 4 or 5 times to game over

G&W
- Holy crap G&W. I probably should have put him as ranking higher than Marth, I think he outclasses Marth entirely, but if not, Marth definitely loses the MU unless the G&W makes a LOT of mistakes. Grab combos for days.

Lil Mac - Mac has a huge advantage imo, a good Mac beats a good Marth almost for free half the time, a lot like Falcon and SANNIC

Olimar and Pikman - A Dabuz level Olimar wins easily vs top Marth level play, most of the time, for many seasons.

Rob - Top Marths have been performing well against Rob lately, but Rob still has a huge advantage in the MU and controls the match, imo

Characters not yet listed that Marth goes even with
Bowser
Browser Jr
Charzard
Dk
Duck Hunt (we may lose to him too though)
Pit Darkpit
Falco
Ike
Ganon
Kirby
Link (May be in Links favor though)
Ness Lucas
Luigi
Pacman (We may lose this one)
Palutena
Peach
Roy
TLink (We may lose this one)
Wario
WiiFit
Yoshi
Zelda
Lucario


Characters Marth beats for free
Jigglypuff - obviously

So, besides Jiggs, Marth has no easy wins. And no one uses Jiggs, so in other words, Marth has no easy wins. All are dead even or stacked against Marth. Perhaps there are matches where Marth has a clear advantage besides Jiggs, but I doubt it.

I would like to see what other Marth mains think about this subject and this list. It's clear to me that Marth is currently ranked too high, even if you subtract 4 or 5 from my list, that seems undeniable to me.

I think Marth can beat any character and lose to any character.

Also, Mk Leo's Marth is God Tier, until further notice.

I disagree that Shulk is better than Marth in any situation except Monado specific things. I don't think they play the same type of game either.

I disagree with a lot of these match-ups, here are the "for sures":
I definitely disagree that Marth loses to Dr. Mario. I think this is an example of you not having enough Doc experience (who does?) to beat some good Docs you've faced a few times.
I don't think Marth goes even with Duck Hunt, Ganondorf, Kirby, Luigi, Ness, Pacman, Wario, or Zelda. I think he beats them.
I also disagree that Jigglypuff is "obviously" free. The best Jiggs in my state got good at the MU and shows me this.

"Asides from saying you -may- not understand Marth's neutral specifically"
I understand Marth's neutral inside and out.

"you don't see him as top 20 I think many would see that as pessimistic."
No, I don't. I think Mk Leo, Pug, and Mr E got their big wins through hard work, grit, guts, and raw skill.
Marth's grab - throw - combo game is effectively non existent at higher percents vs good players who know the MU.
Most of those characters have excellent KO setups too, and most are WAY easier (requires less skill) to master, IMO. As you said, Marth scales with fundamentals.

"You may go "ZeRo is just bad against Marth/Lucina" (although has only lost once),
He has said that he IS bad vs Marcina and doesn't know the MU very well.

"you could observe that this character goes near even with DIDDY KONG in neutral on multiple occasions and start to evaluate what that means."
What occasions and who are you referring to? Off the top of my head I'm thinking... the Mr E vs ZeRo matches... and that's it? And the one Zonoto vs E set.
That's not at all a large sample size - of either various players - or many games - to draw a conclusion that Marth has arrived as Diddy's equal.

It seems more likely that it's just Mr E raising his game to that level, and I wouldn't want to take that credit away from him - when he's the only one doing it in that MU.

Beside Mr E there might be 3 people at most who could match his performance output (Leo, False, Pug) - although Leo is not as weathered as Mr E, and False and Pug have - get this - FAILING performance lately. But what are we talking about, 4 Marth's at most?
Now, how many ZeRo - Zonoto - MVD clones are there?
Heck, I bet any one of us could pick up Diddy today and perform just as well or better than ever - because Diddy controls matches, and almost every good Smash player knows how to use Diddy because we've watched ZeRo since game's launch.
ZeRo said before that there is pretty much nowhere for the Diddy meta to go. It is what it is. Diddy's just such a solid neutral character that it doesn't matter greatly that he may not have any more tricks up his sleeve.

Like - this Zonoto vs E game
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYUoSBPjYYA
What I see is perhaps the BEST Marth in the world struggle against an easily replicated style. A valiant effort vs a MU stacked against Marth. That's what I see in the Diddy vs Marth MU.

Sorry, I beat that point to death, but hey, hope we are having fun.

"I very much doubt you'll convince me nair1 set ups are much more than gimmicks (but prove me wrong"

Gladly.
You said "jab is a direct KO set up" and it's "broke"
I was able to get Jab1 to Fsmash/Ftilt to true combo at around 120% just now. With rage, we can deduct 10% or more depending on how much Marth has.

If Nair1 is a gimmick, then Jab1 is a sad joke.

Here you go - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kMXUF_mBu8

Nair1 true combos into Fsmash as early as 75%, but I get it consistently/easily at 80%.
...I do, your results may vary.
In fact, the moves happen in such quick succession that it strings really well at earlier percents, and if the spacing doesn't look right to me, I could do literally any other option.

Here's a small montage I made for fun. I may make a montage of all the Nair1 Fsmash KOs I've gotten, but it would be over 10 mins long if I clipped them back to back. I often land it off the opponents wiffed dash attack or dash grab - jump back nair1 range/disjoint just wins. I don't even save the replays anymore unless I get a new approach I've been working on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZC3J6JJaVgo

There are many ways to get it to work, and the added Nair range is great - we don't even have to dashcancel to tip the Fsmash like I did before the range/damage buffs.

Edit ---
There are very particular situations where, once I get the read on their movement, then it's in the bag. It works on catching landings, rolls, spotdodges, laggy moves/smashes, ect.

Also, if the SPACED tipper nair1 hits shield, I can spotdodge, shield, roll, up b, jab, - whatever.

-----

I really hope you don't continue to diss it, because misinformation may hurt the meta :/ Just because you can't or haven't done it, doesn't mean it's not a thing :/

This post has gotten super long so I'll cut it here. If you need to know anything else, just let me know.

I'd like the conversation to get back to where Marth stands in the MUs.

Maybe we could start with one category like - What characters do you think Marth beats easily - assuming both players are roughly equal and high skill with their character?
I would like to know some various views on that.

Like I said - for me, Jiggs. Marth woops that ball of cotton candy for free.

About Diddy: I think Mr. E is just good at this MU. He always has been. This was a very long time ago and online, but he did beat M2K's pre-patches Diddy with un-buffed Marth. Then he goes and does well against any Diddy below him and now does well against the tops Diddy's: Zinoto and ZeRo. And I do consider Zinoto a better player than Mr. E. Zinoto has been #1 in MI and one of the best Diddy's for... ever. He has also taken major names throughout most of Smash 4's history. Mr. E only just started doing something similar.

I think Mr. E has this MU down and that Marth still loses vs. Diddy. ZeRo also agrees with this; he does still think that Marth probably loses (he said that when he said that he isn't good against Marth in that one video).

To address claims that Marth is basically without weaknesses and actual bad match-ups: let's consider the possibility that people don't know HOW to beat Marth. I actually believe this. The top Marth's are good enough that people need to study both the player and the character in order to stop losing to him. This applies to any decent character with decent representation. This is how I can explain these rumblings that this character is truly good - rather than just good.

Darius, I do think you overrated Nair 1. Yes, it sets-up for kills and is usually safe on shield. But you have to jump first. It's useful but you're calling it better than Jab. Jab is grounded and is an anti-aerial and, in my experience, can shut down a few characters' aerial games entirely! I feel like Shaya is overrating Jab a little too (I wouldn't call it broken for example).

Marth is still on record in tournament sets to lose to Bayonetta, Fox, Sonic, Sheik, Diddy, Ryu, Meta Knight, ZSS, and maybe Rosa. I haven't seen Marth make much headway on these MUs and a lot of the times that I've seen Marth beat these characters, I, again, blame it on the player's lacking Marth MU experience or knowledge.

I think Cloud and Captain Falcon could be slight losses but they could be even. Those two are pretty weird MUs.

 

[DariusM27]

Darius, I do think you overrated Nair 1. Yes, it sets-up for kills and is usually safe on shield. But you have to jump first. It's useful but you're calling it better than Jab. Jab is grounded and is an anti-aerial and, in my experience, can shut down a few characters' aerial games entirely! I feel like Shaya is overrating Jab a little too (I wouldn't call it broken for example).

True, but the game is about reading the character's/opponent's tendencies. Like for instance, the nair1 setup is veeery hard to get on a good marth player (Utilt, Ftilt, Jab) - anti air moves shut down Marth approaching from the air, especially with such a late hitbox (rather than say, rising Fair)
I don't want to overrate it. I just wanted Shaya to realize it is actually a thing. I agree with your analysis though.

And I appreciate your input on MUs.

With Doc, I'm thinking - if a great player like ZeRo or Nairo used Doc, I think the game would be pretty even vs a top Marth player. But you're right, we probably don't lose the MU outright.

Shulk seems to win the MU to me, but that again is probably because I don't have any consistent practice against good Shulk players. I thought it was even because I don't usually see Marth's recking Shulks, I usually see them go pretty even. For one, Shulk seems to be under-represented, but I could be wrong about that too. What tools do you think Marth has that wins vs Shulk? Our regular sh nair seems good vs him, off the top of my head.

 

[Vipermoon]

What tools do you think Marth has that wins vs Shulk? Our regular sh nair seems good vs him, off the top of my head.

I just want to clarify: you were saying Shulk is better than Marth. That is what I was trying to refute. As far as the MU goes. I haven't really watched Marth v. Shulk. But Shulk doesn't win that in my opinion.

To answer your question:
Very low start-up moves while Shulk has consistently high start-up
Better edgeguarding and safer recovery
Damage output
Kill power

Yes Monado can compensate for some of these, but not all at the same time and not without consequences.

 

[Shaya]

You're not telling me or showing me anything with nair1 I was not already aware of. I know the goal post is difficult, but until I see it's actual consistent success at a relevant level (and that to you, means advocating it's use if you're unable to show it otherwise) I'll see it as mostly fluff that in similar scenarios many players focus way too hard on whilst hurting their overall game improvement. I believe something which has over 30 frames start up and that's naturally telegraphed because of it is a gimmick - I know nair1 on landing combos into things, what's the actual point of your argument? You then state why it's "very hard" - you're providing the justifications for my 'dissing' (as in, this is something that you can get reads for, but this is not a consistently available tool nor is it safe to execute; it's only safe if they blatantly aren't expecting/respecting it [it's -8 on block])

So discounting several instances (the only instances) of top level Marth vs Diddy ? Mr.E plays desperately in deficit and maintains the poor choices from mid third game onwards (always throwing out an aerial on landing even if Diddy isn't moving, continuing/finishing DB on block hoping for a shield drop/poke), and Zinoto is a godlike hard work guts and raw skill top level player who adapted to the pressure and dominant play we saw in the first two games.
Mr.E makes great reads, but he also has some of the best reaction speed/anticipation in the business (semi-consistent power shields on banana tosses for example) - Marth has always excelled and scaled with reaction speed.
You pan off nuances of how things work out for players as hard work, guts and raw skill (so... every other relevant person who are fighting these guys aren't? - well according to you, Diddys are not... lol). You're overly biased in a certain direction and whilst this discussion wasn't about our levels of play, there is only one means with which I can emphasise with your view - however that doesn't automatically discount anything (this we can agree on and you were quick to note it) from anyone.
You exclaim that Marth is highly skillful and difficult (this isn't relevant in any objective fashion though; either Marth can achieve those things or he cannot and there's likely many more reasons to why those reads work more than say Ganondorf reads), you believe you need to be godlike to achieve great things with him (I mean, so does every player?), you devoid value of results [across multiple levels of play] due to this bias - you justify your opinions either through this bias or through your anecdotal experience.

There are more Diddys out there than Marths, and he does have some great pocket utility in certain match ups, but he is not so simple/easy that anyone picking him up will immediately succeed. Diddy skills overlap with Marth quite a lot (well, fair, bair, dtilt are generally congruent in play patterns), so it's not too hard for Marth players to play him and utilize spacing and neutral concepts and have some success. Mastering him is an entirely different story though.
I say this while working as an analyst/coach for a certain someone, I also play both Marth and Diddy (Diddy being one of my main doubles characters) in tournament.

To address claims that Marth is basically without weaknesses and actual bad match-ups: let's consider the possibility that people don't know HOW to beat Marth. I actually believe this. The top Marth's are good enough that people need to study both the player and the character in order to stop losing to him. This applies to any decent character with decent representation. This is how I can explain these rumblings that this character is truly good - rather than just good.

Oh, that's what you meant.
Well, I wouldn't say that's my exact claim, more so that the advantages outweigh the weaknesses in most match ups most of the time by noticeable margins.
We've hypothesized before that people didn't need to know the match up so an entire new generation of players had to suddenly deal with "Marth being good!?!??!" - but I'd say his results haven't died down, and a fair bit of time has passed since the main buffs.


Oh and bogus/broken, I love these words, but they don't have concrete or objective meanings to them, especially in my usage. Broken can generally mean that the risk/reward, utility or ease of use of something is well above average - especially when supplemented with an otherwise solid kit.
I'd rather those be my buzz words over awesome and amazing (true anti-american sentiment right here ).

 

[DariusM27]

You're not telling me or showing me anything with nair1 I was not already aware of. I know the goal post is difficult, but until I see it's actual consistent success at a relevant level (and that to you, means advocating it's use if you're unable to show it otherwise) I'll see it as mostly fluff that in similar scenarios many players focus way too hard on whilst hurting their overall game improvement. I believe something which has over 30 frames start up and that's naturally telegraphed because of it is a gimmick - I know nair1 on landing combos into things, what's the actual point of your argument? You then state why it's "very hard" - you're providing the justifications for my 'dissing' (as in, this is something that you can get reads for, but this is not a consistently available tool nor is it safe to execute; it's only safe if they blatantly aren't expecting/respecting it [it's -8 on block])
.

It's hard to master, it's not very hard for me.
I didn't say it's a spammable move. I was refuting your claim that it is a gimmick, whatever that means, even though now you say you knew about it, which fine, it's not new news.

I'm repeating myself here, but as I said, it is a read based option. Also, if you anticipate the opponent will go for some anti air option to beat it out, knowing that can be used to bait out and punish a move. Obviously mix ups exist.

"Youexclaim that Marth is highly skillful and difficult (this isn't relevant in any objective fashion though; either Marth can achieve those things or he cannot and there's likely many more reasons to why those reads work more than say Ganondorf reads), you believe you need to be godlike to achieve great things with him (I mean, so does every player?), you devoid value of results [across multiple levels of play] due to this bias - you justify your opinions either through this bias or through your anecdotal experience.""
Holy freaking crap dude, you realize that you can just disagree with someone and give your opinion and your reasons for your opinion without being so insulting and saying basically they are wrong caused by them being fundamentally irrational as a person?
I don't devoid value of results. Never said that.

X person disagrees with me. Must call them irrational scrub who doesn't know how Marth works.

"I'll see it as mostly fluff that in similar scenarios many players focus way too hard on whilst hurting their overall game improvement"
Or maybe it doesn't hurt 'players' overall improvement, and mixups are a thing.