Semi-Adv. Technique? - Inputting attacks before they are performed.

[Moosh]

So I discovered this while I was piss drunk and then confirmed that I wasn't dreaming it by testing it again the following day while I was sober lol. What I am trying to find out is if I stumbled on something new or another variation of what someone else has discovered? I searched the boards and couldnt really find anything. I didn't wanna post under the Adv. Tech. sticky so I made a new thread to get more attention. Here's what I found:

I did a double fair and when I landed, I did an up tilt almost immediately. I did this by inputting the up tilt before the fair was even finished. It happend so fast and I found out what was happening almost instantly. Basically, while performing any action/attack you have some sort of lag and need to recover from that action, right? Well, right at about the last split second of that attack's lag or the last frames of the lag animation you can perform another action even before you have recovered from the first move and once the first move finishes, you will do the next one. So basically, I'm saying; SH Fair --> (at the end of the landing lag) Up tilt --> your char does an Up tilt. It's extremly noticable when performed on slow speed in training mode. I also tested this in melee. You'd think if it was in melee it would have been discovered but I tested anyway. Of course you cannot do this. ^^

Summary: I believe this is a very useful technique because of the fact that you don't have to wait for a current attack to end before you input your next attack (unlike in Melee where you had to wait until your current attack was over before inputting a new attack to come out). This is also how I personally attempt to dash dance. By dashing one way and before the initial dash animation ends I dash the other way and it works the same as this "Anticipation" technique I've been using.

Thanks to Jinx for helping me type this out. He also discovered it around the same time I did (about a week ago).

 

[Zeyeth]

There'd have to be a bit more testing, but this could prove viable if it all works out.

Talk about lag manipulation. o.oa

 

[mood4food77]

so maybe we found a lag cancel technique


cause that's what really screwed us up

 

[Ghettoman]

Can you post a video demonstrating this, sounds interesting.

 

[Quill]

Moosh? Crazy... it's been awhile. Didn't know you had Brawl... clearly you've been holding out on me.

Anyways interesting. I hope this turns out to be true. If you want me to come help you test it sometime... hahahahah. :D

 

[Doomgaze]

Are we by any chance talking about IASA frames for jump attacks?

 

[slacker!]

Really interesting. If this works out perfectly, it could be Brawl's L-cancel. So it works with any attack, right? Even just a jab? Have you tried special moves too?

 

[Cirus]

I'm thinking this is IASA. Which character(s) did you use?

 

[Jinx]

so maybe we found a lag cancel technique


cause that's what really screwed us up

You gotta read the post son. There's no canceling of anything. You're simply allowed to input attack 2 before attack 1 is even over, unlike in SSBM where you had to wait until attack 1 was complete before inputting attack 2.

Can you post a video demonstrating this, sounds interesting.

Kinda hard to post a vid when it's somethin you do with your fingers on the controller, lol.

Are we by any chance talking about IASA frames for jump attacks?

No.

 

[Moosh]

i can try to make a vid and post on youtube. would just need a friend to hold the camera lol.......

 

[Zeyeth]

So the Tech's gonna be called the Moosh-rush! Imagine the combo capabilities *drools* If you're inputting the attacks during the animation (or lag however you wanna classify it) I wonder if you could flow an entire stream of attacks into them.

 

[jdub03]

Im pretty sure this is called buffering. Its done in street fighter. I remember hearing you could do it in melee but not out of air attacks. Someone with a better knowledge of melee would have to confirm.

 

[BentoBox]

You gotta read the post son. There's no canceling of anything. You're simply allowed to input attack 2 before attack 1 is even over, unlike in SSBM where you had to wait until attack 1 was complete before inputting attack 2.

Which does allow you to chain moves a tad faster.

 

[Moosh]

i like moosh-rush better than buffering....... and when i tested in melee, i only tested it doing airial attacks so yeah, hopefully someone with more knowledge can confirm for us...

edit: every1 in my house is sleeping but once some1 wakes up i'll bust out the camera and show you guys.. any1 with brawl test this is training mode @ 1/4 speed. it's easiest to see that way

 

[Jinx]

Which does allow you to chain moves a tad faster.

No, you can still time attack 2 after attack 1 is over & it'll come out at the same time as if you input attack 2 before attack 1 was complete.

 

[Surri-Sama]

This would be great, if what i see is right (arieal attack issued, quickly followed by a Tilt before you finish yoru arieal) this will actually give us a combo system O_O YAY!

and dont self name for god sakes geta room

 

[COLDshiver]

Reminds of soccer(us) games like FIFA, where you can press shoot button as the ball is being passed to you and you will immediately do shoot the moment you receive the ball. So if this works, you can queue up a chain of attacks without having to wait for your attack to finish to input your next attack

 

[Jinx]

This would be great, if what i see is right (arieal attack issued, quickly followed by a Tilt before you finish yoru arieal) this will actually give us a combo system O_O YAY!

and dont self name for god sakes geta room

It's not followed BEFORE the aerial is finished. You just INPUT on the CONTROLLER the attack (like up tilt) before the aerial is finished so that the attack (like up tilt) comes out as soon as possible.

Also, Moosh didn't attempt to "self-name." Zeyeth suggested this as a name (if it needs one).

Reminds of soccer(us) games like FIFA, where you can press shoot button as the ball is being passed to you and you will immediately do shoot the moment you receive the ball. So if this works, you can queue up a chain of attacks without having to wait for your attack to finish to input your next attack

You seem to be pretty much the first person who's posted in this thread that actually understands what Moosh is saying here. I give you props for actually reading Moosh's entire post and comprehending. :bigthumbu

 

[Zeyeth]

Well, we're gonna call it Moosh-rushing dammit =( Let's just hope it all works out! Someone with lotsa time and lotsa experience needs to see this thread and go test it.

 

[BentoBox]

No, you can still time attack 2 after attack 1 is over & it'll come out at the same time as if you input attack 2 before attack 1 was complete.

Theoretically, that would be impossible. To perform such frame perfect actions. Using buffering or however its called requires less hand-eye coordination too.

 

[Wight]

I would say it was IASA frames. I'm assuming you were using marth.

 

[Moosh]

i was using marth but this can be done as any character

 

[SynikaL]

Yes, it's an aerial buffer system that's quite infuriating and seemingly pointless since it's hard to get it to work on hit (might not work at all). I was actually going to make a post about this, right when I saw this thread.

I'm gonna continue to mess with it later today, and make a more detailed thread for it.

-Kye

 

[Jinx]

Theoretically, that would be impossible. To perform such frame perfect actions. Using buffering or however its called requires less hand-eye coordination too.

I dunno about "impossible" but I'll agree that this way is easier & requires less hand-eye coordination.

I would say it was IASA frames. I'm assuming you were using marth.

It's not IASA b/c you're not interrupting anything. It works with characters other than Marth (Moosh was just using him in the example).

 

[2L84U]

I agree with you.
I input B twice as quickly as possible as Falco and found myself shooting 2 laser beams.
The first laser has not come out when the 2nd B button is pressed actually.

nice find.

 

[Kirby M.D.]

Hm, buffering inputs in Brawl. Sounds interesting, cannot wait for more research.

 

[Aninymouse]

FYI kids, this is called "buffering" in every other fighting game EVER since they EXISTED.

Never forget that.

 

[iron blade]

It sounds like one-timer shots in Mario Strikers. You shoot before it reaches you and you kick it the second it reaches you. This definitely needs to be researched.

 

[Talvi]

I think I noticed this on some videos, where Kirby did Up-Tilt just after landing from dair, while if he didn't the Up-Tilt there was some lag from landing. People have been doing this but they didn't notice of the lack of lag doing it.

 

[Knight-errant]

Are we by any chance talking about IASA frames for jump attacks?

I dont think so, because it doesn't sound like the first attack is being interrupted, it sounds like the second attack is just being performed *immediately* after that first attack is over.

So it's use would be that there is *zero* time (not even miliseconds) between when the lag of one attack you perform ends and another begins. It seems small, but that split-second can make all the difference.

 

[SynikaL]

It only works with No-Lag moves. Kirby "lagged" in that vid because the player opted to do nothing with the cancel-able frames at that moment.


-Kye

 

[Cisne]

uhhh, u can do this in melee , just by not l-canceling -.- thats why is not that wellknown
even on the ground, tilts > jabs> smash etc...
this is not new to me

 

[Magus420]

I remember M2K talking about how shieldgrabs also buffer. You don't need to be good at timing the grab because the game will time it perfectly for you if you're 'close' and do it within the window before it, instead of having to time it correctly yourself.

 

[shyo2]

its really just buffering inputs. I noticed this in the third vs battle i played. I rolled twice but didn't want to, then I played around with it and discovered it. Nothing big, but if you do it correct you perform the next action in the first possible frame.

 

[Surri-Sama]

yes this is Buffering, but you all "sound" (imo) like its a bad thign xD, to me if this works in all senerios like the creator said this is a VERY good find common can no one elaborate for me?

 

[Yoshi1999]

I think this is already called DLX hit cancel.

Someone found it already.

 

[Surri-Sama]

I think this is already called DLX hit cancel.

Someone found it already.

two wrongs, one uit is not what you said, and two DLX IS NOTHIGN stop spreading that geh name >_>

 

[Kashakunaki]

I'd bet a pretty penny this is just IASA frames.

 

[SynikaL]

Since Moosh has made this into what looks like the Official Topic for this discussion, I'll just post this here:


People thought I was crazy when I stated this a few weeks ago:

This was my the strangest problem with this game. The game, amazingly, seems to have control issues. I don't know if it's just the nature of the new system and there's a mechanic we're not aware of, flirting with us, so I can't say for sure -- but everyone found themselves turning the opposite direction or jumping randomly when generally playing. It was quite annoying, the controls just don't feel very tight. This may be us just not being very good yet, but it's something that I don't remember experiencing in the previous games. It happened most after landing an aerial or trying to DashDance and was completely ****ing over the ground game.

Now that I actually have the game in my personal possession, I've learned this is the result of that mechanic. Not only does the mechanic work for aerial attacks (only low lag aerials, as I've stated before), it buffers any input placed within about 5-10 frames prior to landing (aerial attack or a simple jump) . You can buffer a grab (with Z) or simply buffer a dash, jump or crouch. Doing this on hit, however, is less practical since the hitstun makes the timing stringent enough to negate the effort of trying to buffer -- you might as well just time your follow up normally.

What's infuriating about it is, spacing becomes a bit difficult quite often. Trying to Short Hop backwards to space or mind game can result in turning the opposite direction, leaving you open or betraying your intentions. This can be somewhat mitigated by pressing Forward prior to landing with the exception of one crucial situation: Spacing aerials.

For example, say I want to lead an approach with Falcon's Nair. My opponent shields it, so near the end I decide to hold back in an effort to space it -- this results in Falcon turning the opposite direction, as going to neutral prior to the 5-10 active buffer frames or pressing Forward is not an option in this scenario (since I'm attempting to space in order to avoid something such as a Shield Grab).

It happens most when you're really focusing on you opponent, and you find yourself randomly facing away from him -- very frustrating. The plus side, is that now that I know precisely what this is and how it works, I can work on ways to mitigate, circumvent and exploit it.


Note:

Someone needs to make a Brawl System Changes thread and organize all the data regarding the game's new mechanics and get it stickied. We really need that thread, because this game is such a different animal in so many aspects and we need a quick reference for Newcomers and Vets alike.

I'd do it myself, but I'm lazy/a very busy person, so I wouldn't be able to devote the time to the thread another would be glad to. If I don't see it in a few hours however, I'll just make the thread myself.


-Syn

 

[Takeshi245]

Cool technique. This'll be great when it comes to increasing the speed of your character's attacks. Thanks, Moosh.