Seriously, let's stop using janky stages

[bobson]

Take a good, strong look at the game that you're playing. Its not the same game you first bought. There are far too many arbitrary decisions to claim that we only took out the "non-competitive" aspects. This community has created a competitive game out of a party game. We MADE this game. Simple as that.

Great, can we get an official ban on King Dedede's infinites, then? Nobody likes them, and you just threw out the main reason for not banning them.

 

[TheWildcard]

umm no, once again you're wrong, if you get caught in a infinite by DDD which means on a wall its your fault. (seeing how alot of TO's ban the standing infinite) if you get hit by a bomb on pirate ship for example there is a chance that is is no fault of your own that you got hit by it, example chain grabbed into a bomb hit into a bomb jab locked into a bomb or shield broken by a bomb. if lost because i got chain grabbed into a bomb id be pissed.

 

[jokey665]

umm no, once again you're wrong, if you get caught in a infinite by DDD which means on a wall its your fault. (seeing how alot of TO's ban the standing infinite) if you get hit by a bomb on pirate ship for example there is a chance that is is no fault of your own that you got hit by it, example chain grabbed into a bomb hit into a bomb jab locked into a bomb or shield broken by a bomb. if lost because i got chain grabbed into a bomb id be pissed.

It's your fault you got grabbed and your opponent's good tactics that he GC'd or hit you into a bomb.

 

[Eddie G]

It's your fault you got grabbed and your opponent's good tactics that he GC'd or hit you into a bomb.

Ok smartass. What about the fact that bombs still appear even when the tower isn't in sight yet? Yeah...totally our faults if we don't see a bomb coming sometimes.

 

[jokey665]

Ok smartass. What about the fact that bombs still appear even when the tower isn't in sight yet? Yeah...totally our faults if we don't see a bomb coming sometimes.

When the tower is off-screen I'm fairly certain the bombs only hit the water at the very front of the ship and the very front of the ship itself. Stay at the back of the boat, or on the top platform where I'm pretty sure the bombs can't hit you ever anyways.

 

[Overswarm]

Ok smartass. What about the fact that bombs still appear even when the tower isn't in sight yet? Yeah...totally our faults if we don't see a bomb coming sometimes.

It is only "off screen" when you are far to the left or the right. They also only hit you when you are on the ground.

 

[bobson]

I was talking about the standing infinites. If it's fine to ban things because no one likes them and no one wants to play with them, then the standing infinites should get an SBR-approved ban. The only valid argument for keeping them in is the argument that nothing should be banned unless it's absolutely broken, and SamuraiPanda just threw that out.

 

[Overswarm]

Hence why you have to take his suggestions with a grain of salt.

 

[Blood_Hawk]

This thread needs more MW love.

 

[ice-]

This thread needs more MW love.

Who is this west coast guy trying to tell us to love?????????????






jk <3 Blood Hawk

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Hence why you have to take his suggestions with a grain of salt.

Where did that even come from? Just because I debate with you doesn't mean you have to be a douche and try to write off my logic with your quippy one-liners (that don't have any substance behind them) in a completely different thread where you aren't even part of the discussion.

I was talking about the standing infinites. If it's fine to ban things because no one likes them and no one wants to play with them, then the standing infinites should get an SBR-approved ban. The only valid argument for keeping them in is the argument that nothing should be banned unless it's absolutely broken, and SamuraiPanda just threw that out.

While I do agree that the standing infinites should be banned, there is actually another valid argument for keeping them other than "its not broken." Banning the D3 standing infinite delves into the realm of banning things just to make certain characters better. Some people argue that if you ban the standing infinite, then why not ban MK's tornado, as that effectively decimates some characters just as bad as the standing infinite does. I think that the slippery slope argument is a bit hyperbolic since we are smart enough to draw the line before banning absurd things like that, I can see why people say that creating rules just to improve a few specific characters is a problematic precendant to set.

 

[Overswarm]

]There WILL be infractions given for flaming, trolling, spamming and especially Melee/Brawl bashing.

doesn't mean you have to be a douche and try to write off my logic with your quippy one-liners

Infract yourself, sir.

The only valid argument for keeping them in is the argument that nothing should be banned unless it's absolutely broken, and SamuraiPanda just threw that out.

Reason #1

While I do agree that the standing infinites should be banned

I think that the slippery slope argument is a bit hyperbolic since we are smart enough to draw the line before banning absurd things like that, I can see why people say that creating rules just to improve a few specific characters is a problematic precendant to set.

Reason #2; you just claimed to be smart enough to draw the line at absurd things and recognized that the slippery slope was hyperbolic in nature, but failed to see why the hyperbole existed. People aren't serious when they say "then why not ban tornado". They're telling you there is no reason to ban anything unless it is actually broken, and saying that you can ban one thing but not another is literally cherry picking a ruleset that caters to your own personal value system.

Which leads me to:

Hence why you have to take his suggestions with a grain of salt.

Despite your knowledge of the potential disastrous consequences of making specific rulesets, you're fine with banning standing infinites. Previously, you stated that we can remove whatever we want because we have to "make" Brawl into a fighting game; you take the approach that removing things is A-OK because of this, and no natural line is set. This shows a lean towards a personal bias that is more than likely pre-set and not towards what is or is not actually "broken" in competitive play. As such, you can write a twenty page essay on why you think D3's standing infinite should be banned, but anyone that knows where it is coming from knows it boils down to "I think its gay". So, you have to take everything you say with a grain of salt and evaluate it in isolation via your own experiences and cannot merely "trust your word".

 

[BunBun]

Oh man, if you think "you don't have to be a douche" is flaming, you're way too sheltered.

 

[Eddie G]

Oh man, if you think "you don't have to be a douche" is flaming, you're way too sheltered.

It's not. He's just trying to get SP worked up for who knows what reason.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Infract yourself, sir.

Oh man, if you think "you don't have to be a douche" is flaming, you're way too sheltered.

There is your reason for why its not flaming. I've been a moderator for far too long to fall into the whole "breaking your own rules" trick that so many users try pulling out. I wouldn't infract a person for saying what I said.

They're telling you there is no reason to ban anything unless it is actually broken,

Uh... not at all. I don't see this implied in that statement whatseoever. And even if it is, there is something else that is much more blatantly implied that I included in my post.

and saying that you can ban one thing but not another is literally cherry picking a ruleset that caters to your own personal value system.

Speak of the devil, thats pretty much exactly what I said in my post.

Which leads me to: "Hence why you have to take his suggestions with a grain of salt."

Oh I see, because I came up with the exact same conclusion you did? Because that IS the real reason? Yeah, you just blatantly restated what I just did and then tried to say I'm wrong. I wish I had a vast collection of pictures like Sliq does so I could post something appropriate here.

Despite your knowledge of the potential disastrous consequences of making specific rulesets, you're fine with banning standing infinites.

No, I said that personally I'm fine with banning the standing infinite, however the reasoning for the opposing side was strong. And actually, I am fine with banning character-specific infinites (which would exclude things like wall infinites, ICs infinites, etc.) in order to avoid the "potential disastrous consequences," but I also know how difficult that would be to enforce which is why I don't advocate it very much.

Previously, you stated that we can remove whatever we want because we have to "make" Brawl into a fighting game; you take the approach that removing things is A-OK because of this, and no natural line is set. This shows a lean towards a personal bias that is more than likely pre-set and not towards what is or is not actually "broken" in competitive play.

How does that in any way show a lean towards personal bias? If anything, I'm one of the most personally UNbiased members of this entire **** community. When the MK debate was raging on, I was clearly unpracticed in the matchup and lost to even mediocre MKs. Yet I became anti-ban (shortly after I leaned pro-ban after the SBR debate). I have made an effort since day 1 of being in the SBR to be as unbiased as I possibly can be, so I am insulted that you even assume I try to do things for personal gain. The only thing I keep in mind is the health, success, and longevity of our community as a whole, and nothing else.

As such, you can write a twenty page essay on why you think D3's standing infinite should be banned, but anyone that knows where it is coming from knows it boils down to "I think its gay". So, you have to take everything you say with a grain of salt and evaluate it in isolation via your own experiences and cannot merely "trust your word".

"Anyone that knows where it is coming from"? Do you know what you just said? You just said that if I assumed I knew why you wanted to do something, that means no matter what logic you throw at me, I can just throw it out by saying "oh you just don't like it," without ever taking into account what is said. That is a ridiculous notion. Especially because you're applying it to me, when clearly you have NO IDEA whatsoever as to what my presumed biases are.

You sir, are full of it. I can't believe how ridiculously blind a person can be to others views.

 

[Sliq]

Every time I get taken to Japes I get klap trapped. EVERY SINGLE ****ING TIME.

I've since torn the C out of my alphabet book so I don't have to see crocodile.

**** CROCODILES.

 

[Eddie G]

That's because Bowser has one hell of a meaty ***. Mmm-mmm! >:D

 

[Gates]

Every time I get taken to Japes I get klap trapped. EVERY SINGLE ****ING TIME.

I've since torn the C out of my alphabet book so I don't have to see crocodile.

**** CROCODILES.

But there are a lot of other important words that start with the letter C.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BovQyphS8kA

 

[TheKiest]

This one too....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anNcJilRNNM

 

[Blood_Hawk]

Sliq always makes me laugh.

I totally miss Sliq.

Do you perchance play on GGPO? If so, OUTTA MY WAY!

 

[Thinkaman]

Every time I get taken to Japes I get klap trapped. EVERY SINGLE ****ING TIME.

I've since torn the C out of my alphabet book so I don't have to see crocodile.

**** CROCODILES.

This is true! Remember when I beat you at Ann Arbor because you died to it twice?

And then we eliminated lain from our pool.

Yesssssssssssssss.

 

[Sliq]

Sliq always makes me laugh.

I totally miss Sliq.

Do you perchance play on GGPO? If so, OUTTA MY WAY!

I do, but not that often. You should hit up Jiano, as he is always *****ing that I don't fight him enough.

This is true! Remember when I beat you at Ann Arbor because you died to it twice?

And then we eliminated lain from our pool.

Yesssssssssssssss.

I do remember that. Take that Lain, you Asian.

Lain's new nickname is Daylight's Savings Time, because every tournament he shows up at gets set back by an hour.

 

[Overswarm]

Lain's new nickname is Daylight's Savings Time, because every tournament he shows up at gets set back by an hour.

ahhhhhhhhhhahahahahaha

That is amusing to me as it resonates with my personal experiences.

 

[Sliq]

ahhhhhhhhhhahahahahaha

That is amusing to me as it resonates with my personal experiences.

You weren't any better with your camping. Remember that ****? YEAH.

 

[Gates]

You weren't any better with your camping. Remember that ****? YEAH.

This post made me realize something.

Overswarm wants his stage list to be like his playstyle and personality:

Gay, annoying, and unlikeable by everyone who doesn't meatride him.

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

every Time I Get Taken To Japes I Get Klap Trapped. Every Single ****ing Time.

I've Since Torn The C Out Of My Alphabet Book So I Don't Have To See Crocodile.

**** Crocodiles.

This This This This This

 

[Sliq]

Does anyone actually PRACTICE on Janky Stages, or just pick them? I never practice on Brinstar in Melee, but I pick it all of the time.

 

[jokey665]

When I practice I use every stage except the jankiest of the janky, ie rumble falls, 75m, mario bros, etc. I know the ins and outs of all the "janky" counterpicks I use very well. I counterpick Japes all the time and I can't think of a single time I've gotten klaptrap'd in a tournament set. Largely in part due to knowing where to be and where not to be, and when to not be there.

 

[bobson]

Most people who don't practice on the unpopular stages have the belief that they should be banned instilled in them after someone who does practice on those stages CPs them there in tournament and they get "gayed" because they didn't know the stage, like how someone who's new to the game might think Ike is broken because their brother 3stocked them.

 

[Overswarm]

Who is boson? I like him.

 

[Mr.E]

I'm not sure but he certainly isn't the same person as bobson.

 

[AOB]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boson

 

[DMG]

All I can say is:

Please, Please, Please...

Let me have my Brinstar.

That is all.

 

[TheWildcard]

even though i like brinstar dmg, there are some people who dislike it. so the rea lquestion is what is the good balance of stages

 

[DMG]

Of course, I completely understand it. I myself am torn between the "LOL BRINSTAR DMG 8 MINUTE TIMER RUN OUT" mindset and the "Wow that is gay wtf why do we allow this" type of thinking. I personally love gay stages, but at the same time I can understand completely why people would want them gone.

I think a stage list like this should be used:

FD
SV
BF
PS1
YI
Castle Siege
Delfino
Frigate
Halberd
Lylat
Pictochat
PS2
Brinstar (BIG maybe, as much as I love Brinstar I accept the fact that it is pretty ********)

Done. List over (unless I forgot an important neutral/universally accepted CP stage).

Those stages allow "strong CPing" while at the same time no one is screaming cause a Klap Trap killed them or cause "Norfair Gay".

 

[Gates]

DMG, that is a great stagelist. Only thing I would add is maybe Rainbow Cruise instead of PS2, but other than that it's fantastic.

 

[TheWildcard]

ps2 is fine same with RC

 

[Eddie G]

Lol Pictochat but a maybe on Brinstar? Suuure...xD

 

[DMG]

King Beef.

Pick Snake. I pick Wario.

Let's go to Brinstar.

Oh wait wow what a fu**** up stage I'm like Fu***** MC Hammer on that stage "Can't touch this".

Now let's go to Pictochat. Hey, you actually have a shot at beating me. So WHAT if a random line messes you up or missiles spawn randomly and kill you or a cart flies by on a U shaped track and wrecks you, the point is you have a REAL shot at winning.

Trust me, Brinstar is easily "more ********" that Pictochat. I of all people would understand how to exploit gayness in stages, and I can do so more on Brinstar than Pictochat. I will say however that because of the large stage size/random terrain changes, that it becomes a LOT easier for Wario to, say Run away from Diddy or Lucario compared to a regular large flat stage like FD. That is a small concession compared to how gay Brinstar can be overall.

 

[Eddie G]

First off...only an idiot would choose to go Snake against a Wario on a stage that he can easily run away on. Look up Pink Shinobi (Peach) vs. Rockcrock (Ganon) in Melee on Youtube, they fight on Kongo Jungle 64 and the Peach decides to just aircamp the Ganon for the win simply because his attributes don't allow him to chase her effectively. Same concept as the example you pointed out. You gonna ban Kongo Jungle 64 because of that? I sure hope not, it's still a legit stage. It may seem gay to pick a stage to be able to camp some characters who cannot effectively chase or retaliate against it but it's nothing ILLEGAL...it's called STRATEGY. Second, I main Peach in Brawl, Peach is good on Brinstar as well, a good Peach goes even with and/or can wreck a good Wario. She can also chase him well and shut down his air camping effectively. I know this firsthand. So your scenario may hold some ground, but it's not likely that it'll happen to me or to a player of another character that can chase Wario *cough*MK*cough*. Therefore Brinstar is not a ******** level solely because Wario can attempt to "aircamp" on it. It's not a full-proof strategy. Just sayin'.

You seem to be hell bent on the focus of stage dependency which is why Pictochat is the more appealing and ideal stage to you, but I don't see any facts behind your comparison and it seems to hold some bias. I'll be fair and say that both stages are "equally ********", because how would it be fair to take away a stage that gives some characters an advantage just because it's supposedly "more ********" than a stage that gives other characters an advantage? I don't see any real problems with Brinstar. It's a helpful stage for some characters (Peach, Wario, Lucas, etc.) and a hindrance to others with nothing seriously outrageous to handle within the level itself, just rising acid/lava. Um...counterpick material? Yes.