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Sheik Changes?

D

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You are absolutely sleeping on Zelda, Marth, Ike, Wario, CF, Pika, Roy, Zard, Kirby, and Lucario imo. Not to say they are all top tier but to say they have more options than sheik.
first off, i appreciate your distinction that tiers are relative, which is totally true. however, i disagree with your assessment on these characters, and i will briefly explain why.

the way PM is, the cast is extremely diverse. i mentioned before that some characters can just roll the same A game and do it forever, but sheik has to adapt. however, my comparison there didn't mention the third group, the characters that need to know the MU and still can't adapt to it. you mentioned several of these flaws characters. zelda and kirby are actually the most obvious, since both have horrible approaches and can't play from behind in any way, i put zelda well into the bottom half of the cast. similarly, ike struggles with non-interactive strategies, particularly low crouches from characters like kirby, GAW, and yes even sheik. wario has many of the same issues as sheik does (because she plays fair and isn't stupid) but wario trades sheik's range, extensive combos, needles, total edge control, crawling, AC aerials, and a slightly better combo weight for more weight, better aerial mobility, and.... that's pretty much it. in terms of playing a fair game of smash, sheik is definitely better at it between the two. the same could be said of pikachu, although i agree that most people underestimate pikachu i think the same of sheik but to a larger extent. lucario is actually much closer, but lucarios combos are actually much easier to DI out of simply by spinning the stick in circles mid-combo. i haven't been that impressed with lucario yet but i admit that my observation here are pretty limited and perhaps i just haven't played a good one yet.

marth roy and CF all fall into a different category since they are all DD based. DD was weakened considerably to the point of being a reasonable tactic and not completely ****busted. however, i firmly believe that marth and CF outright suck. you should me any marth player and i will show you a bye in a bracket. i am less sold on roy because roy is imo over-designed to perform well. i initially started thinking of roy as a mid tier but actually fighting roy can feel monstrous and overwhelming because he was clearly given what i affectionately refer to as "the mario treatment". i dislike that some characters were just given a bunch of good things and called it a day, and i understand why other people dislike link for the same reason. however, i still think that sheik is a more rounded character that is better equipped to deal with the wide range of tactics offered by the larger cast. it is strongly advantageous to have a flexible character, or perhaps it is better said that it is strongly disadvantageous to play a flawed character when you can simply choose another character without those flaws.
 
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Juushichi

sugoi ~ sugoi ~
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it is a disservice to dart... my b, but oro plays zss. his marth is legit tho, but not moneymaker.
 
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RedEyesWhiteSwaggin

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Jan 19, 2014
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M2 is broken. It's not fake. Zero has better fundamentals than emukiller, and is also using another broken character. I trust that he'll be toned down accordingly considering how long the meta developed for 3.5. Everyone knows what is and isnt stupid at this point.
Again, I have yet to see anyone talk about just throwing out a hitbox to punish M2's TP in. If you watch Emu and M2K, they literally get 90% of their openings from TP in. When against Zero, he doesn't get to TP in because Zero just throws out a hitbox. M2's neutral is well below average and can't convert from stray ftilt/dtilt hits and his hover is nowhere near on the level of Peach's float due to their respective fair's hitbox. I agree that being able to whoop on the ledge then randomly whoop on stage is silly and will be fixed. His combo game is great and his offstage is above average. But I'll leave it at that and we'll see if hes garbage or not next patch.

first off, i appreciate your distinction that tiers are relative, which is totally true. however, i disagree with your assessment on these characters, and i will briefly explain why.
On Zelda I would agree with @ foxygrandpa foxygrandpa , she is definitely weak mid range and flat out loses matches that can rush her down before her wall is set up. I can see how you think shes weak though. Maybe I haven't seen enough people just not approach her.

I think Ike has the tools to deal with noninteractive strategies even if they are as basic as PS>WD or PS>QD. But he is definitely stronger in a defensive position.

As for Wario you forgot to mention his much stronger FFer combos, a MUCH easier time dealing with CC'ing, a better recovery albeit similar in length, a command grab, absurdly low % kill potential with fsmash/sideb/downb (with the possibility of comboing into downb easily and a low risk read for fsmash/sideb), and better throws.

I don't at all see how people seem to think CF/Marth are garbage. I agree they get pretty well dumpstered by Pit, Link, and a few others. For CF, I can in no way see how a character with guaranteed touch of death combos on the entire cast is bad. Not only that but he has guaranteed kills off throws on everyone that isn't a FFer and an extremely lengthy recovery with mixups. Certainly his combo weight is usually bad and his recovery is exploitable but he is by no means garbage imo.

As for Marth he is basically identical to melee. He is very likely to kill under a 100% or around 200%. I do agree his stage choices are pretty damn weak as are a lot of melee vets like Sheik/Peach.

I also I forgot GW with his absurd hitboxes, kill power, and recovery and Ganny with his CG on the entire cast.

EDIT: also yoshi, foxy mentioned him but I forgot to.

I see your points but I am also seeing more and more that is increasingly silly to try to rank these characters accurately. From my information, several top tier recoveries have major nerfs atm and even several dthrows so I'm sure 3.5 will be a different game. I will leave it at this: I see absolutely no reason design wise for Sheik to have an extremely laggy, short, slow recovery with no mixups, a useless side b and questionable down b, and literally the worst kill options in the game. I would agree, given her design, to have her kill options/recovery to be on the weaker side of things but there is no reason for them to be decidedly the worst.
 
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InfinityCollision

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Take a moment to separate what people do with Mewtwo from what Mewtwo can actually do. Mewtwo is among the most poorly utilized/underutilized characters in 3.02, yet he still has strong tournament results. It's an important distinction to make for any character, but Mewtwo is an especially glaring issue of people totally missing the boat because they're too busy watching VoDs and not enough time thinking about a character's toolkit.

As far as Sheik's kill options being poor, that's a matter of perspective. If the opponent goes from 80% to 150% then dies without ever really having a chance to reset, is it all that different from them dying outright at 80~100%? Sheik may not kill outright at low percents, but she can put most of the cast in situations where they're effectively dead at the same percents.

Sheik has the notable benefit of being a well-rounded character whose gameplan is sufficiently adaptable to cover almost anything that isn't overbalanced (read: current top 10). Most of what's changed is for the better. 3.5 remains a mystery for a short time yet, but I agree with those who have said she ranks somewhere not far below the top 10.
 
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foxygrandpa

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I agree that CF might be slept on a little bit, but he's literally outclassed by sonic in every respect. HIs approach is garbage, and can be shut down easily, as everyone has tools for shutting down approaches. Besides, he pretty much can't beat sheik if you just space ftilts.
Marth is fine the way he is, but I would argue that his dash dance game is weaker due to universally strong neutral options. Also, he has worse kill options than sheik. Literally can't kill half the cast without a tipper, and different floatiness and weights make it difficult for him to combo into.

GW is annoying because of his crouch but I dont really know anything about him so Im not gonna say anything on that


Ganon is probably literally the worst character currently lol. And I can guarantee that theres no way he's keeping the chain grab, so don't worry about it.
 

4tlas

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No you can do that currently. Just go have p1 select Zelda and p2 select Sheik. Transform at will and watch them be identical.

Edit: An interesting thing to note is that whichever is transforming to the other has no transform load time. Someday I hope they can just have Zelda/Sheik "loaded" in players 5 and 6 (or something similar) so I don't have to start requesting that we get extraneous people to load as Zelda/Sheik in slots 3&4 and just suicide repeatedly to start every tournament match lol
 
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InfinityCollision

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Yeah, I've encountered that before as well. The game automatically switches one of you to another costume when you go back to the CSS after the match, but there's nothing stopping you from choosing the same color via the different characters. Works the same for Samus and ZSS iirc.
 
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internetmovieguy

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No you can do that currently. Just go have p1 select Zelda and p2 select Sheik. Transform at will and watch them be identical.

Edit: An interesting thing to note is that whichever is transforming to the other has no transform load time. Someday I hope they can just have Zelda/Sheik "loaded" in players 5 and 6 (or something similar) so I don't have to start requesting that we get extraneous people to load as Zelda/Sheik in slots 3&4 and just suicide repeatedly to start every tournament match lol
Edit: (fixed a typo)
I am aware of this glitch. They can also simply put the same colour on two different colour slots. There are a lot of ways they could get both of those models on the screen and they all require extra 'work' (not just picking two characters from the standard build).

But why would they go out of their way? especially with the OoT remake skins that they could show off.
 
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Giygacoal

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I am away of this glitch. They can also simply put the same colour on two different colour slots. There are a lot of ways they could get both of those models on the screen and they all require extra 'work' (not just picking two characters from the standard build).

But why would they go out of their way? especially with the OoT remake skins that they could show off.
It's not a glitch.
 

4tlas

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You really can just select them both and it does this. I do it all the time. Go try it!
 

foxygrandpa

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sheik's bthrow feels different, but there's nothing in the change log about it. Can someone confirm?

And as a side note she's the best she's ever been now, better (and more fair) than melee in my opinion.
 

foxygrandpa

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obv you didn't play 2.0 sheik lmao

but yeah shes pretty good
Didn't start this game until the beginning of 2.1, it felt too unpolished to me.

Bthrow has gotten no change.

Sheik has a DACUS (shorter, much shorter than brawl), should be nice. : )
Really, it feels like it throws lower for some reason. Ive been playing melee so maybe im off a bit.
Her dacus is ridiculously good and crazy fast for covering tech options. if the opponent DI's sheik's throws up, she can sometimes follow up with a dacus for a kill.
 

Missile

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Sheik hasn't gotten her bthrow changed.

I can't find any use for the DACUS yet.
 

ThreeSided

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ThreeSided

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Then this needs to be fixed :v
I don't mind it. Regrabbing out of old Bthrow on smaller characters didn't seem to be guarunteed because by the time they were low enough to grab they would be out of hitstun and be able to jump out. It also just speeds up her throw mixup game as a whole, which forces them to think faster and puts the situation further into our favor.
 

foxygrandpa

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Sheik hasn't gotten her bthrow changed.

I can't find any use for the DACUS yet.
If someone DI's dtilt away, you can occasionally follow up with dacus. Also, you can occasionally kill with dacus off a grab depending on the opponent's DI.
I don't mind it. Regrabbing out of old Bthrow on smaller characters didn't seem to be guarunteed because by the time they were low enough to grab they would be out of hitstun and be able to jump out. It also just speeds up her throw mixup game as a whole, which forces them to think faster and puts the situation further into our favor.
I agree. Thanks for the info. Her grabs feel better this way.
Sheik is dumb now.
Sheik was relatively untouched except for dacus. Everyone else was just made not dumb. She's literally perfect the way she is now. She's definitely on the higher side of the tier list, but everything is so close together now that it's negligible, at least at the meta's current state. I don't see what could possibly be dumb about her.
 

jtm94

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Yeah after playing more everyone else isn't in the same peril that I thought they were. Sheik is just very good now.
 

Missile

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Sheik now has a legitimate advantage off the ledge with most characters. Just like she should be.

I don't mind it. Regrabbing out of old Bthrow on smaller characters didn't seem to be guarunteed because by the time they were low enough to grab they would be out of hitstun and be able to jump out. It also just speeds up her throw mixup game as a whole, which forces them to think faster and puts the situation further into our favor.
It was meant to be sarcasm. lol

The only negative thing about this is that there will be some characters you can no longer tipper u-smash on b-throw bad DI. The trade-off if that now there are some characters that you will be able to do it on that you couldn't do before because of the higher release point letting them escape with a jump.
 

ThreeSided

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The only negative thing about this is that there will be some characters you can no longer tipper u-smash on b-throw bad DI. The trade-off if that now there are some characters that you will be able to do it on that you couldn't do before because of the higher release point letting them escape with a jump.
Honestly, considering my frustration comboing floaty characters, I am perfectly ok with this. And they're the ones we'll be killing earlier with it too! =D
 

KingsGambit27

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I'm currently in the lab for sheik followups off of the 3 DI options (In/None/Away) for both throws. No DI and DI In allow for DACUS and Dash>USmash respectively on floaty characters, and possibly on some characters with mid weight and mid-high fall speed (Think sheik and link)
 
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