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Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

Fernandez

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Messages
212
Location
The Netherlands
it is because you don't play perfect falcos. I can jv 5 stock falcos that are unperfect. Falco is that type of character. He either is perfect and kills you, or he is unperfect and you kill him. I 4 stock more non-top falcos (if they arent a top 4 falco or something) than anyone else but I think the top level play is 100% reversed due to what options you have


well i MM'ed Dr. Pepee when i went to Civil War, he 3-stocked me but i felt like i understood the macthup and was conftarble in it. He just simply played better than me. If your on their level thougth the macth-up is bad but winnable. I mean there is no such thing as perfect Falco since nobody is perfect, but i defenatly if somebody did play perfect the macth-up would be unwinnable. But arent all the spacey's like that lol if they play perfect nothing you can do? Good thing nobody is perfect:awesome:
hahahahaha
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
I think Falco might be harder but I don't think either of them are anywhere near unwinnable and I think Puff is harder than both of them by a good margin.

I think ICs are Sheik's hardest MU right now, and have felt that way for many years. That said, I'm also willing to admit I'm likely terribly prejudiced about that one because I suck at it and have no experience in it whatsoever.

I don't think either space animal really poses much of a threat to Sheik's tournament viability. I think as far as tournament runs go, Hungrybox is by far the biggest concern (followed by the top level ICs, probably). Although, even then, Puff vs Sheik isn't unwinnable or anything. It just sucks and Sheik blows at coming back vs Puff because Puff's jump & crouch & stall suite is stupid and why the hell does she have it.

I have no idea what I'm gonna do vs those ICs though. I don't think pocket Peach will work on them. And my SH fair isn't as good as M2K's.
 

SonuvaBeach

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 7, 2008
Messages
1,141
Location
Howell, MI
I think Falco might be harder but I don't think either of them are anywhere near unwinnable and I think Puff is harder than both of them by a good margin.

I think ICs are Sheik's hardest MU right now, and have felt that way for many years. That said, I'm also willing to admit I'm likely terribly prejudiced about that one because I suck at it and have no experience in it whatsoever.

I don't think either space animal really poses much of a threat to Sheik's tournament viability. I think as far as tournament runs go, Hungrybox is by far the biggest concern (followed by the top level ICs, probably). Although, even then, Puff vs Sheik isn't unwinnable or anything. It just sucks and Sheik blows at coming back vs Puff because Puff's jump & crouch & stall suite is stupid and why the hell does she have it.

I have no idea what I'm gonna do vs those ICs though. I don't think pocket Peach will work on them. And my SH fair isn't as good as M2K's.
You are spot on IMO. IC's are very hard. I know your pocket peach worked on Trail, but Fly/Wobbles is a different story. I'm not so sure any of my alts could compete. Puff & IC's are definitely sheik's worst matchups. Even with experience, IC's can still 0-death consistently and easily off of one grab.

Falco and Fox are extremely hard when they are patient, but they are winnable. I don't feel as if Falco's lasers are unmanageable, in fact when my powershielding is on I actually get upset when they don't laser. Even if it isn't, sheik can platform around and maneuver safely if you are intelligent.
 

Sinji

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Messages
3,370
Location
Brooklyn New York
NNID
Sinjis
3DS FC
0361-6602-9839
I just use fox for Icies

against puff I try to CC the bairs into uairs and hope for the best. its really hard.

Not to mention the fact the fact that you cant DA or grab her.
 

Jolteon

I'm sharpening my knife, kupo.
Joined
Aug 9, 2006
Messages
6,697
Location
England
I think you'd probably change your opinion on Ice Climbers if you had more experience vs them, the fact that Spopo can cg you is annoying though.
 

Smooth Criminal

Da Cheef
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
13,576
Location
Hinckley, Minnesota
NNID
boundless_light
Well, I thought about this for a bit last night, and realized that Sheik has no reliable way of splitting the Ice Climbers up outside of d-smash or tagging one of them in a death combo that isn't even guaranteed.

=/ Beyond that, I can't really say anything else. My IC experience is limited.

Smooth Criminal
 

The Great Gonzales

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 7, 2007
Messages
558
Location
Springfield,MA
i've played againts IC's in tourney's and MM'ed a few, i can honestly say its a hard macth-up. They can chain-grab you easily. Sheik also has no good way to seperate them like spaceys do. She can space out fairs like marth but since she doest have the huge disjointed hitbox that marth has its much harder. Im currently working on how to go about seperating them more efficiently as i keep playin the macth-up. When i have more experience i can mention what ive discovered
 

WHA?

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 5, 2008
Messages
544
Location
818
hey does snyone have needle info?
-how long does a needle stay stuck on the ground
-is there a set amount of needles that can be out stuck on the field
-how bad is the lag it causes on ur opponents attacks

just think of a possible idea to bug/throw opponent's timing off
but im sure that just charging needles and unleashing em for % is better
 

stelzig

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Messages
1,415
Location
Århus, Denmark
Well, I thought about this for a bit last night, and realized that Sheik has no reliable way of splitting the Ice Climbers up outside of d-smash or tagging one of them in a death combo that isn't even guaranteed.
Combos on Nana are very guaranteed :p
The only way they aren't guaranteed is that the other climber can, of course, come in and break your combo sometimes.

The matchup is bad, but at least sheik is pretty good at taking care of Nana when she does split them up. That Fair.
 

silentSWAG

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 6, 2010
Messages
1,031
Location
South Park
hey does snyone have needle info?
-how long does a needle stay stuck on the ground
-is there a set amount of needles that can be out stuck on the field
-how bad is the lag it causes on ur opponents attacks

just think of a possible idea to bug/throw opponent's timing off
but im sure that just charging needles and unleashing em for % is better
i would like to know this info as well
 

Bl@ckChris

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 4, 2009
Messages
7,443
Location
Greensboro, NC
yeah setting needle traps and ftilting people during their needle lag is funny. or just setting a needle trap for them to miss their l cancel for a grab. good times...
 

Bl@ckChris

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 4, 2009
Messages
7,443
Location
Greensboro, NC
if anyone ever wondered what my sheik looks like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7r1FWuVL4Xk

match 2 starts around 3:18

i feel like i did some things right simply because i understand how falco works. i still made too many mi stakes as far as overcommitting goes. if anyone wishes to critique it, i think i'd like to hear what you guys have to say about my sheik.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
BlackSteve:

It sounds better. No argument.

Anyway... Down smash doesn't protect you from people directly above you very well. If the opponent likes to run off plats, just move out the way in any way you can and see if you can beat whatever they do coming down. If Falco's smart and sees you moving far out of the way, he can laser and acquire some footing, but this really isn't a big deal. Sheik's fine vs lasers and such.

You're really bad at hitting fair to finish your combos. Fix this. Fair is stupid, etc. Should be your go-to combo finisher unless you notice something better (namely tipped up smash that KOs, regrabs to further extend the combo, and weak aerial > strong aerial [very hard with Sheik onstage]).

Your movement is kind of bad. I'm not sure what to tell you. Your move aim isn't that bad (you seem to know where her priority is, which is important) but the match essentially looked like you doing something decent, then fumbling around with your positioning & evasion, and then you'd get comboed to death.

On that note, please DI away from Falco shines. Sheik can be shine > shine / firebird so you actually do need to DI things away. I don't remember how many grounded dairs he got on you, but if they're moving forward with it with a lot of momentum, SDIing through Falco is generally better than away (because 'away' will just have you move with how he's jumping, which defeats the purpose of SDIing it at all).

Oh, and that thing on SDIing dairs also applies to Fox ftr.

You seem to have an aversion to using fair in general. You run off platform > bair but that's way less safe than fair because of AC, consistent strong hit (more shield stun), etc. Fair is probably Sheik's second best or best move in the neutral game (f-tilt is the other big one). Seriously... get more comfortable using her good moves when they're good. Play some matches and just spam & reactively place fairs as much as you can. You will realize how godlike the move is. Even when it's wrong it usually works out. It's that good (also, minus botched tech chases, Sheik is pretty good about fail-safes).

All in all, despite the stock count, not terrible. You clearly have no idea how to play a fast character with tons of options. That's fine, however. It's really not too hard to learn her stuff. She's pretty easy to get to mid-level with in a hurry.




Random person that asked about RNS edgehog as a serious thing:

Basically, you're standing at the edge, slightly away from it (about half a dash?). What is this set up similar to? Oh, right. Run off fair. What does run off fair cover? The sweetspot and, depending on height, straight (and some stray angles). What does the edgehog cover? The sweetspot. So, I mean (and this is a really simple example but it's all I can come up with right now), yes, the RNS edgehog can work and it will look badass... but you already have tools that cover those options that require roughly the same positioning and are much easier. Because the placement of Sheik is so similar, it's unlikely you'll really trip anyone up either (RNS edgehog isn't really a mixup from run off fair for all these reasons IMO).

The good thing about RNS edgehog is that it's incredibly fast. This in and of itself makes it worth looking into. But it's not a substitute for some of the older edgeguards (unless you hate efficiency and value coolness, but that's more of a space animal or Falcon thing).
 

Bl@ckChris

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 4, 2009
Messages
7,443
Location
Greensboro, NC
yeah, i tend to use bair over fair because of my ganon heritage (the way bair angles down makes it much more useful in such situations compared to sheiks up angled bair). when i play her in the future, i'll definitely look more into her fair. i probably only got one good grab off of platform evasion things, which as you say, should definitely be a part of my game. and holy crap i whiffed at least one really important fair lol (4:00) and then it led to me looking for the fair on the phantasm and...me getting killed LOL. probably why i started switching to uairs later in the match...

thanks for the words of advice.
 

Bl@ckChris

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 4, 2009
Messages
7,443
Location
Greensboro, NC
yeah, my nair oos is horrible lol. having to short hop as if i'm fox even though i'm floaty like sheik is so weird. definitely something i'm working on. the best i could do was fade them back and try to reset to neutral once i realized i fullhopped. thanks for watching it and giving your input.
 

WHA?

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 5, 2008
Messages
544
Location
818
hey does snyone have needle info?
-how long does a needle stay stuck on the ground
-is there a set amount of needles that can be out stuck on the field
-how bad is the lag it causes on ur opponents attacks

just thinking of a possible idea to bug/throw opponent's timing off
but im sure that just charging needles and unleashing em for % is better
anyone got input?
 

The Great Gonzales

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 7, 2007
Messages
558
Location
Springfield,MA
i dont know the exact numbers but its really not that long for needles to stay on the ground. Althougth if someone hits them it can trow off their timing, especially when playing againts furries. The problem is that the charge time and time it takes to the trow them is better spent using then for set-ups i feel
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
Sometimes when I don't know what to do with a knockdown, I just down smash the opponent and it turns into a big combo.

I saw Jolteon do something kind of cute on the stream yesterday. He jab reset a space animal below 30 and IMMEDIATELY down smashed to get the last two hits only. Because he hit with the last hit, he was able to continue to tech chase (hitting super late with down smash is kind of pro) and it was kind of neat. I might experiment with that because it looked cool and it did 23% total (including the jab), which is more than what I currently do at that percent (jab reset > up smash).

Oh yeah this was vs a Fox. I wouldn't bother trying it vs Falcon. His SDI out of the jab reset is really easy and he's fatter so the down smash hits might not knock over either. I'd probably have to figure out when they knock over Fox too (so I don't do the chunk of damage and then lose my punish - that would suck). I imagine DI away probably ruins this too but idgaf.
 

The Great Gonzales

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 7, 2007
Messages
558
Location
Springfield,MA
speaking of falcon is it better to trow him up to tech chase him easier at lower percents? It seems since he falls so quick it can be harder to follow his tech if you react slow like me
 

omgwtfToph

Smash Master
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
4,486
Location
San Jose
The period of time between Falcon hitting the ground (thus starting his tech animation) and Falcon being able to act again (i.e. his tech roll or tech in place has ended) is the same regardless of uthrow or dthrow, but uthrow sometimes lets them do dumb stuff like jump out, plus dthrow has the added benefit of directly comboing into stuff if they don't DI away, so.
 
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