Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[Metal Reeper]

Kk and shrooned would be cool team

 

[TaFoKiNtS]

What should I do against a fox that mixes in a fresh amount of dash attacks and runin-shines? It ruins my defensive spacing when the Fox mixes this in with his normal sh-nair sh-drill, fh-nair, and dash dances. WHAT DO I DO??? T_T

 

[KirbyKaze]

Everything you listed is managed at least decently by SH away into bair (with the exception of FJ nair, if the Fox knows how to aim his FJ arc).

 

[omgwtfToph]

Shrooned :V

 

[Sweet™]

Besides Fox and Peach who does Sheik team well with?

Hard saying after Fox and Peach.

Probably Puff, though.
Sheiks amazing grab capabilities + Jigglypuff's rest = not bad

 

[virtuososteve]

I want to ask all fellow Sheik players how does one get better?

Its a very broad question when it comes to a game based on so many things, eye-hand-coordination, dexterity, prediction, thinking on ones feet but let me use a metaphore:
I have played violin for 11 years. When you first begin you focus all on tech skill, relaxing, finger dexterity, bow arm, grip etc. After many years of practicing a bunch of techniques and mastering them you get to the juicy side, the musicality. This is because once you have all of the technique that gives you the freedom to do as you please with the music and make it your own.
In smash I believe it to be similar and yet, I feel like I have hit a brick wall in my advancement. I have been playing fox for a few months now and have increased my finger speed, accuracy and dexterity substantially and yet I still lose to people I know I should be beating.

When I play Axe he literally knows exactly whats going to happen next and punishes me severely for it. During a match (if he is not sandbagging) I am lucky to get 50% on the guy. Now many of you may scoff at that and say that you could do better but play Axe and then tell me lol What does he see that I dont? is he just smarter? faster thinking? I'm not dumb I am going to school for computer science.

I come to you all as a friend that feels like however much as he tries he is stuck in the ditch...anyone care to hand him a ladder?

 

[SillyGoose]

Having trouble with ICs. They seem to be able to throw ice blocks faster than I can throw needles, and when I try to close some space I always seem to run into that dd desync blizzard and get grabbed. Sheik feels way worse at getting in, separating, and killing nana than say fox or falcon, but gets edgeguarded for free and grab-punished just as hard or harder because she can be chaingrabbed by popo until nana resyncs.

Any advice? Any good sets to watch besides kk vs fly? Should I just cop out to fox?

 

[Kaffei]

Thanks for the great post, KK
I've said this like a million times but every detailed post is a treat lol

 

[BTmoney]

I want to ask all fellow Sheik players how does one get better?

Its a very broad question when it comes to a game based on so many things, eye-hand-coordination, dexterity, prediction, thinking on ones feet but let me use a metaphore:
I have played violin for 11 years. When you first begin you focus all on tech skill, relaxing, finger dexterity, bow arm, grip etc. After many years of practicing a bunch of techniques and mastering them you get to the juicy side, the musicality. This is because once you have all of the technique that gives you the freedom to do as you please with the music and make it your own.
In smash I believe it to be similar and yet, I feel like I have hit a brick wall in my advancement. I have been playing fox for a few months now and have increased my finger speed, accuracy and dexterity substantially and yet I still lose to people I know I should be beating.

When I play Axe he literally knows exactly whats going to happen next and punishes me severely for it. During a match (if he is not sandbagging) I am lucky to get 50% on the guy. Now many of you may scoff at that and say that you could do better but play Axe and then tell me lol What does he see that I dont? is he just smarter? faster thinking? I'm not dumb I am going to school for computer science.

I come to you all as a friend that feels like however much as he tries he is stuck in the ditch...anyone care to hand him a ladder?

Gosh I feel that way myself sometimes but I only been seriously playing for 2 months. I think I made leaps and bounds and would JV 5 my former self but I struggle against the same person. Repeatedly. I think of melee as a series of rapid yes or no questions. Good players answer more questions more correctly (yes and no can each be correct to some degree).

I believe that my progress comes from constantly changing and improving the "if-then" statements that go on in my head as I take in information from various situations. (i.e. if Fox FH at this distance and I am here then I chose to do this). Good players have good "if-thens."

If technicality truly is not holding you back you have to look at your decision making, knowledge of priority, and spacing. Objectively that is all that there can be left to change. I also believe that there is 1 and only 1 correct and most optimal solution (99% of the time) to any given situation. Good players know what that solution is, execute it, and are more acquainted with more situations.

Essentially good players have good attributes. This probably stopped making sense.

That is general as **** but it is 4:00am so I'm done thinking for today lol.

 

[omgwtfToph]

I think 98% of Sheiks can improve simply by tightening their punish game.

 

[darkatma]

100% of all players can improve by tightening their punish game.

 

[omgwtfToph]

 

[oukd]

@virtuososteve - tachi pretty much hit everything i would say, but id like to add something

people I know I should be beating.

i prefer not to think of anyone as 'people i know i should be beating' since all it does is protect my ego in place of improvement. if someone has a winning record vs me, i'll put him above myself out of obligation, no matter what my bias leans towards/how bad others say he is. then again this is just a personal mentality thing so it might not apply for everyone. but i think it motivates me to try harder

...i think this is my first post on the sheik board

 

[Jolteon]

Having trouble with ICs. They seem to be able to throw ice blocks faster than I can throw needles, and when I try to close some space I always seem to run into that dd desync blizzard and get grabbed. Sheik feels way worse at getting in, separating, and killing nana than say fox or falcon, but gets edgeguarded for free and grab-punished just as hard or harder because she can be chaingrabbed by popo until nana resyncs.

Any advice? Any good sets to watch besides kk vs fly? Should I just cop out to fox?

I don't think it's necessary to choose Fox vs ICs. Sheik does fine, imo.

Advice:

ICs are bad in shield and dealing with pressure in general, so you will find that forcing them to shield and then keeping their oos options in check will benefit you a lot, and end up netting you a few shield pokes. This is particularly the case if you push them into the corner where retreat wd oos becomes a bad option. Good options to pressure their shield: spaced pokes (ftilt/fair/bair), late nair on shield (0 on block). walk/dash back -> bair/ftilt/reverse needle storm and wd back -> ftilt/fair are all good options to deal with wd oos. Spaced aerials beat their aerials oos. sh needle storm is also a great option on a sufficiently small shield, as a way to get free damage after you connect with an aerial, or when ICs are cornered.

In general, I would suggest that most of your aerial pressure on them is done with late aerials since they will be looking to punish either your jump animation or your aerial lag in close quarters, a lot of Sheik players get used to repeatedly fairing in the same spot which gets punished hard if they do this. jump -> waveland and ground movement -> aerial are good mix-ups that make it a lot harder for ICs to grab Sheik.

The reason you are getting grabbed so much in close quarters is probably because you are flailing around too much. If you feel like a move is unsafe, or you aren't really sure, I would advise you to just not throw it out in the first place. Since ICs don't have an option to threaten a large amount of space at once, such as Fox's jump or Falco's SHL, they'll primarily try to punish whiffed moves in close quarters for a punish.

Also, combo/edgeguard the crap out of them when you do manage to split them up, their combo weight is great for Sheik's moveset and it's really easy to keep them in the air with uairs/bairs. vs Nana you want to be really aggressive off stage since her AI is stupid and gets gimped very easily, just make sure you can recover safely afterwards. If SPopo is being reckless in his attempts to save Nana then abuse that fact and get a punish on him instead.

Sheik does gets punished hard by ICs, just keep in mind that Sheik is really hard for ICs to grab.

 

[Tomoya Okazaki]

Anyone have any tips on the Sheik & ZZS, and Sheik & Marth match up?

 

[Sweet™]

Anyone have any tips on the Sheik & ZZS, and Sheik & Marth match up?

Wrong board, friend.

 

[Kaffei]

@virtuososteve - tachi pretty much hit everything i would say, but id like to add something

i prefer not to think of anyone as 'people i know i should be beating' since all it does is protect my ego in place of improvement. if someone has a winning record vs me, i'll put him above myself out of obligation, no matter what my bias leans towards/how bad others say he is. then again this is just a personal mentality thing so it might not apply for everyone. but i think it motivates me to try harder

...i think this is my first post on the sheik board

I like this mentality I think I'll adopt it

 

[Heero Yuy]

Wrong board, friend.

Our apologies. I just invited my friend to this board yesterday and maybe he's just a bit confused on how these Smash Boards work. Otherwise, here's hoping he does have some questions on Sheik's MU's in Melee.

 

[omgwtfToph]

agree w/ dkuo. once the goal shifts from "I want to beat this guy" to "I don't want to lose to this guy," you're both less likely to win and less apt to learn

you have to be bloodthirsty every set you play

 

[KirbyKaze]

I want to ask all fellow Sheik players how does one get better?

Its a very broad question when it comes to a game based on so many things, eye-hand-coordination, dexterity, prediction, thinking on ones feet but let me use a metaphore:
I have played violin for 11 years. When you first begin you focus all on tech skill, relaxing, finger dexterity, bow arm, grip etc. After many years of practicing a bunch of techniques and mastering them you get to the juicy side, the musicality. This is because once you have all of the technique that gives you the freedom to do as you please with the music and make it your own.
In smash I believe it to be similar and yet, I feel like I have hit a brick wall in my advancement. I have been playing fox for a few months now and have increased my finger speed, accuracy and dexterity substantially and yet I still lose to people I know I should be beating.

When I play Axe he literally knows exactly whats going to happen next and punishes me severely for it. During a match (if he is not sandbagging) I am lucky to get 50% on the guy. Now many of you may scoff at that and say that you could do better but play Axe and then tell me lol What does he see that I dont? is he just smarter? faster thinking? I'm not dumb I am going to school for computer science.

I come to you all as a friend that feels like however much as he tries he is stuck in the ditch...anyone care to hand him a ladder?

I know I could do better vs Axe

Basically, you have no idea what you're doing. You aren't playing with the concept of reaction windows, you aren't constructing plays that retain or create options to handle the current situation, you're not even bothering to learn how to bullshat his character into the ground by chain grabbing him to the maximum percentage. I'm going to guess that you think that by learning a whole bunch of techniques, you should be able to keep pace. Plus you have a winning matchup!

I am going to pointedly say that's bullcrap.

People learn this game incorrectly for the most part in this day, I think. The focus on movement and transitional fluidity between actions is really good but people have kind of forgotten this is a game of interactions. Not once in your post have you asked about a specific scenario. You haven't mentioned a damn thing that actually happens in a match except you've implied you get 4-stocked a lot. Stock counts, though the King of Mews will undoubtedly say otherwise, do not actually communicate much about a particular match. Especially when taken in a vacuum with barely anything else to go by (although your post suggests you haven't learned chain grabbing or all the gay stuff you can do to Pikachu when you get a solid hit, which is congruent with the rest of your post's tone in that you really have no idea how to think about situations, how to analyze your play, how Sheik wins exchanges, or how to win once you get an exchange).

So if you want to get better with Sheik, it may be worthwhile to talk about - oh, I don't know - things that keep happening that cause you to lose. Improvement is a long, difficult process. But it's much more possible when you actually ask us about how to sharpen your gameplay (videos are a great tool for us because it gives us concrete information about a match to work with, without your perspective leering over it). Bemoaning that Axe ***** you doesn't tell us anything.

I apologize if this sounds mean but I really see nothing in your post to work with aside from, "Chain grab his rodent's posterior."

@ Toph - Every single character's player base within a 90-98% or so could benefit if they actually bothered to combo properly. The vast, vast majority of Foxes are freaking garbage at comboing Marth, other space animals, Jiggs, ICs, and so forth. Don't get me started on Falcos.

@ SillyGoose - Ice blocks are easy to deal with.

In a camp off, you have a bunch of stuff to out-camp them. I often just shoot a needle on the ground with SH needle or platform drop / run off something and it'll stop their iceblocks because the fallen needle intercepts the blocks for some period of time. I like this strat because the AC allows me to defend if the other WDs in. If they counter-camp, then you're free to charge needles on the ground and shoot them for trying that camping strat.

You could also jump onto the platform and charge needles there, dropping to shoot them or repositioning / baiting a FJ aerial and working around it. Because of their ****ty aerials and mediocre air mobility, the platforms are a reasonable position for Sheik in the matchup. You can drop through and shoot multiple needles through blocks if you time it correctly so once you have about 3+ needles that's a solid option if they camp back.

You could also charge needles if a single block is approaching (and the other is occupied, probably with blizzard) and wait until the ice block almost reaches you before unloading so that you fire 2+ needles (the first breaking the block, the second hitting the climbers). I dislike this one unless you are either sober or near full needles though for a few reasons. Largely WD shield grab related.

Camping the climbers is easy enough. It's probably the most reasonable option against them at low percents since nothing does anything until about 25%.

Against blizzard defenses when I'm the attacking character, I usually just jump around it. It doesn't have that much vertical range and their option pool with the other climber is limited by a few things, namely input occupation (this ain't an antdgar vid) and the time it takes for their moves (namely anti-airs) to start. SH forward and do a low nair behind them or something (use it periodically vs Fly). Heck, do it in the center of their body if they're over like 30% (don't miss the l-cancel, since you're landing in front of them; you can sometimes do fairs this way). Lots of bizarre things work, your aerials are good.

Being hit by blizzard is fine because if you're on the ground, CC > shield > shield action works and if you're in the air you can just DJ or SDI some direction (up is good). Speaking as if I were on offense, all you should realistically be worried about are whether your offensive move somehow leads to you being grabbed (1), being forced to tech and then possibly tech chase grabbed (2), or being hit offstage in a position where you are forced to recover (3). This may seem polarizing to your offense, but it doesn't remove it as an option and ICs are a polarizing character anyway by design so whatever.

Hope this helped everyone.

 

[omgwtfToph]

*doesn't get you started on Falcos*

 

[ChivalRuse]

@ Virtuososteve: Have you tried recording your matches against Axe and then rewatching them? You won't be able to remember exact situations very well through memory alone, but rewatching your play can be helpful for analyzing bad habits and such, in my opinion.

 

[joejoe22802]

So I've been having some trouble with Marths that dd into downtilt and grab as a means to control space and mixup. Plus if they cc a lot it makes it much harder.

I feel like this really shuts down my SH fair walls.
My solutions include AC fairs into jab to intercept jabs.

More generally I avoid aerial game to avoid dd grabs and up tilt combos.
This leads me to bait with very far spaced tilts. I also go for overshot grabs and dash attacks but do get caught on those.

I'm looking for solutions to the neutral game problem. Mixing between tilts, fairs, and overshot dash grabs and dash attacks makes me feel very high risk high reward.

I'm thinking I need to use safer options like. Bairs over fairs, more needles, more movement stuff with no attacks such as run up wd back, and empty hops back.

How do you guys feel about these solutions and do you guys have other advice?

I also have some problems edgeguarding. Marth seems to be able to go so low and really delay it.

I'm thinking more light shield edgeguarding. But I also wanna leArn the optimal time to grab the edge.

 

[Metros]

Sorry for the random post, but does anybody have any idea what M2K does at 2.34 exactly? Shiek does some sort of super-wavedash from what I can see, or is that just me?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dbobz1NlUxE#t=152s

 

[joejoe22802]

Metros, he just fastfalled into a waveland, timed the waveland very late and then fast falled off the edge. GL get your tech up.

 

[Metros]

Metros, he just fastfalled into a waveland, timed the waveland very late and then fast falled off the edge. GL get your tech up.

Lol @ you telling me to 'get my tech skill up' over asking a simple question. My tech skill is fine, thank you, but I'm glad you were concerned enough to bring it into question. 6+ years playing kinda boosts it right up there, y'know? Oh, and btw, an answer was all I required, so you can take the bonus of an attitude back

 

[joejoe22802]

Lol, I can't believe you took it that way. Not my intention at all. And you can save your veiled aggression for another ear. Suck it.

 

[Metros]

Lol, I can't believe you took it that way. Not my intention at all. And you can save your veiled aggression for another ear. Suck it.

Right. Totally wasn't your intention at all, yet 'Good Lord, get your tech up.' You might not have thought it, but I perceived that as pretty offensive.

Nothing about my post is aggressive. I'm not an aggressive person. I just don't go around bringing people's tech knowledge into play when they ask a question.

If you want to tell me to suck it then fine, right back at yourself.

 

[oukd]

bro youre taking way too much offense from this lmao




ANYWAYS

have any of you been using shielddrop uair as an escape option or do you usually use other aerials out of shielddrop? ive been using uair almost predominantly -.-

 

[darkatma]

That post didn't sound offensive at all.. and GL usually stands for good luck...

 

[omgwtfToph]

Lol @ you telling me to 'get my tech skill up' over asking a simple question. My tech skill is fine, thank you, but I'm glad you were concerned enough to bring it into question. 6+ years playing kinda boosts it right up there, y'know? Oh, and btw, an answer was all I required, so you can take the bonus of an attitude back

You need to slow your roll homeslice.

There are about 3 Sheiks in the world who don't need to get their tech skill up. 4 if you count DarkSwagAtma but he's a Peach main now so he doesn't count.

 

[TaFoKiNtS]

Aside from the obvious, I should have edgeguarded better, can some people give me insight to the neutral game? I know that many matches were winnable if my punish game was slightly better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBBbfs4i94Q

 

[omgwtfToph]

squirtle squirtle

 

[stelzig]

have any of you been using shielddrop uair as an escape option or do you usually use other aerials out of shielddrop? ive been using uair almost predominantly -.-

I almost always use Fair out of my shieldrops. I guess Uair is fine too, but I suck at fastfalling out of a shielddrop (and even l-cancel sometimes lol) so I don't get anything out of it. (also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJNlVjFyN7s#t=3m10s Though I guess Uair would've worked in NTSC as well and wouldn't have had to reverse hit )

 

[virtuososteve]

Hey you guys, Ok so There was a smashfest here and I recorded 3 matches against Axe, two were against marth and the last one pikachu. This was the only camera we had so its ****ty quality but still viewable.
Pros and Cons would be awesome! thank you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqjZIdb9X80&feature=youtu.be

This video was recorded earlier this week. Its of me not getting ***** as bad lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCR4liCK2rY
start at 1:10:16 so you dont have to watch the whole thing

 

[ChivalRuse]

^ Stop challenging ledge invincibility when you're recovering. You got caught by ledgehop nair a lot. Also, in general you tend to overextend yourself. When you have better positioning with your opponent above you on the platform or whatever, don't full hop and give up that advantage just because you have a good chance of getting a hit. Stay under with short hops or poke with u-tilts.

Work on your timing for tech chasing (especially on platforms). You gave up a lot of free hit opportunities because you didn't correctly time your attacks in sync with the tech (or flubbed tech) punishable windows.

Use needles and grabs more. Less dash attack. React to approaches and intercept with tilts. Your neutral game is a little stale. Try to think organically (outside the box) and try to avoid falling into set patterns that your opponent can capitalize on.

 

[Tero.]

Guys I seriously need some help. I got some videos of a tournament last weekend:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IJ6ahDx_v0 (me vs dash winner semi final)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHGiteZpeP0 (me vs dash loser final)

While I felt I played very good in the first set I pretty much ****ed up everything in the second set.
I had the feeling that my finger just wouldn't do what I wanted them to do

Some background information: My opponent is currently #1 in our regional power ranking, while I'm about #4
I also took a long break after that first set there and all other sets that I've played afterwards, that is maybe one reason why my fingers were doing random **** which I didn't wanted, apart from that I don't know why I won the first one 3-0 and then lost 0-3 so any help is greatly apreciated

What I've noticed myself is that I am relying on shield grabs way to much (which simply is a bad idea against spacies...)

Edit: at 11:29 in the first video I knew KirbyKaze was proud of me since I'm not as horrible as Demo Kirby

 

[darkatma]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upYnFqciT90&t=5m46s
new sheik metagame?

 

[omgwtfToph]

^ lord did that to me last week LOL

lord also did the sickest charged double dair -> charged usmash combo I've ever seen

come back to san jose binyan

edit: In all serious, I'm not convinced Sheik's chain is a bad move. I just don't know how you're supposed to use it LOL

 

[SacaSuMoto]

@tero

Having watched parts of the Losers set first then parts of theWinners, it's not just shield grab you rely on.

In the second set you are only defensively dash dancing in the corner trying to get that grab for a gimp, but most of your gimps that set were unsuccessful.

However, in the first set you were more mobile, trying to get in. Your opponent was also trying to get in and do some stuff. You got your grabs and your gimps were successful.

What happened in the second set both you and your opponent changed your game. You were way more heavily defensive. And your opponent also changed to a more efficient and calculated approaches style. So your limited options made you easier to read for your opponent, who had adapted to not just your on stage play but also your off stage gimp play. So, in the end, you were more predictable.

This is just what I saw.

TL;DR you DD lacks substance/threat