Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[KirbyKaze]

Don't ask me about Fox right now.

 

[Sweet™]

In my R2 pools, I realized how little I don't know about playing against Falco.
I'm always getting combo'd, and shine pillar'd and ****.

As dumb as it sound, how do I not let this happen? :l

 

[unknown522]

Don't get hit

I went deep to ninja KK

 

[KirbyKaze]

Thread title is surprisingly apt.

DI away from Falco combos unless doing so will let him edgeguard you without giving you much recovery height (or if it'll combo you into a lethal dair and kill you outright). SDI away from or through dairs to avoid shine follows at low percent. At medium percent his combo move changes from shine to u-tilt so it doesn't actually do much but it might help if they go for the shine anyway.

Against conventional aerial-shine chains on your shield, find the hole to WD OOS, roll, nair OOS, or shield grab. If you roll, do it between the shine and follow aerial and generally aim to maximize the distance you put between you two for safety. Same rule applies for WD OOS but the lack of invulnerability tightens the window and will make doing it after the aerial sometimes appropriate (especially vs rising retreat aerial baits). Nair is if he does something dumb at 35%+, grab is if he does something incredibly dumb period. Nair OOS can beat shine grab if he's hit you with shines during his stock.

If he's fond of multishine, just shield DI away or wait until he's far enough so that the shine barrage will miss your shield. At which point you can grab him or hit him. Pick your poison. I sometimes actually prefer the nair to the grab even when both work because of positional reasons but it doesn't really matter so long as you follow up.

I could talk more about defensive play with Sheik and how to avoid bad situations and such if you really want. But all in all you're going to win this MU by killing him in 1-2 good hits (f-tilts that knock him over and lead to a combo, grabs, dash attacks at 20%+, etc). You win by comboing him to death or gimping him more than you win by enduring his bullcrap. If you want to win by enduring him, play Peach, Jigglypuff, ICs, or Brawl.

 

[S l o X]

When I was learning Falcon, Hax told me to ALWAYS JC grab and now it's all I do with every character out of habit.

I don't understand the different Sheik grabs and when I should use what.

Help?

 

[silentSWAG]

boost grab is really good with sheik

 

[hectohertz]

@slox:

okay so


JC grab has less lag on whiff
dash grab has better range (it has hitboxes behind and in front of her) whereas JC grab only has in front
JC + dash grab have the same startup speed
dash grab has more lag on whiff
boost grab has the most range (since its actually a dash grab) (but also the most startup, since its a dash attack for a couple frames before its a dash grab)

the way i use them:
JC grabs in normal situations where its possible the grab might whiff
dash grab for CG or other situations where i might need to grab behind me
boost grab to tech chase or situations where I need a lot of range (but are not trying to do it as fast as possible, I use boost grabs to tech-chase spacies when they tech-roll because it lets you cover their long *** tech-rolls, but also not get too close until the perfect point, which makes it harder for them to shine you)

 

[Sweet™]

Wait, what's the difference between boost grabs and dash grabs?

Please don't tell me I've been doing this wrong for a year...

 

[Xyzz]

Dash grab is the standart running grab you get from hitting z during your dash animation.
Boost grab is a somewhat longer version you get by initiating a dash attack and immediately canceling it by hitting the z button. The addition in range is because you retain the momentum of the dash attack, so it's especially noticeable on characters like Sheik whose dash attack carries them quite a bit of space.

 

[Sweet™]

I've always called boost grabs, dash grabs.

In that case, 90% of the time I use boost grabs.

 

[soap]

I use all the grabs situationally

jc for short range pivots and just as a general use grab

dash grab for chaingrabs as well as midrange scenarios such as crouch cancel grabs where u get pushed back slightly

Boost grab - tech chases, long dash dance spacing, launching into opposing dash dances.


Additionally, there are some frames after a fox trot where you can not repeat the dash forward, in these frames you can still dash attack/boost grab. I find that mechanic pretty useful as well.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Dash grab's stupid range and hitting both sides is good when your opponent is a small target, short, inside your body, can fall to either side ambiguously, and if they like to dash through you in general. I use it as my go-to whenever the opponent airdodges to avoid something and tries to awkwardly drift around me. I also use it vs Sheik up+B when she's crouching and beginning to stand up, vs Luigi side-Bs that land him onstage, and various other things. Its speed is also important in certain CGs.

Boost grab is mostly for tech chasing, tossing into dash dances, and tossing into shielding opponents that are really far away (because of its dumb range). Its utility lies mainly in its range. Otherwise I prefer dash grab and JC grab because they don't move you forward as much and the slower startup of boost grab is a drawback in close combat (unless they're retreating).

Standing grab (and things that use the standing grab animation, like dash JC grab or pivot grab) is useful vs anything that's high in the air (grabbing Fox through nairs is super pro). It also has merit as a defensive move when you evade and they miss in front of you because (assuming you're not sliding from the dash --> JC action) you don't lean forward as much. However, this is a relatively small point. Its lower lag can also be important vs characters with heavy punishment.

Empty hop grab is a great pressure mixup and is generally amazing because Sheik is great at conditioning shielding opponents because of how much threat her fair exerts and how penalizing it can be to be hit by a tilt when trying to escape from shield.

For character specific things, dash JC grab is quite possibly your worst move vs Puff (aside from perhaps f-smash or chain but all three can get you rested super easily so it's close) so never do it unless you're basically hard reading the drift on her backwards nair or fair and grabbing her while she's airborne. Or grabbing her shield from far away (and even then it's meh and I recommend walking or various other grab spacing setups before that one).

 

[soap]

boost grabbing airborne puff out of retreating aerials always worked better for me

 

[KirbyKaze]

Damn, f-smash keeps looking better and better.

 

[soap]

^ for what?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Relatively speaking.

 

[PGH Carroll]

to masturbate to.

not in my top 10 sheik moves..
but pretty easy to.

 

[garrR]

Dash grab's stupid range and hitting both sides is good when your opponent is a small target, short, inside your body, can fall to either side ambiguously, and if they like to dash through you in general. I use it as my go-to whenever the opponent airdodges to avoid something and tries to awkwardly drift around me. I also use it vs Sheik up+B when she's crouching and beginning to stand up, vs Luigi side-Bs that land him onstage, and various other things. Its speed is also important in certain CGs.

Boost grab is mostly for tech chasing, tossing into dash dances, and tossing into shielding opponents that are really far away (because of its dumb range). Its utility lies mainly in its range. Otherwise I prefer dash grab and JC grab because they don't move you forward as much and the slower startup of boost grab is a drawback in close combat (unless they're retreating).

Standing grab (and things that use the standing grab animation, like dash JC grab or pivot grab) is useful vs anything that's high in the air (grabbing Fox through nairs is super pro). It also has merit as a defensive move when you evade and they miss in front of you because (assuming you're not sliding from the dash --> JC action) you don't lean forward as much. However, this is a relatively small point. Its lower lag can also be important vs characters with heavy punishment.

Empty hop grab is a great pressure mixup and is generally amazing because Sheik is great at conditioning shielding opponents because of how much threat her fair exerts and how penalizing it can be to be hit by a tilt when trying to escape from shield.

For character specific things, dash JC grab is quite possibly your worst move vs Puff (aside from perhaps f-smash or chain but all three can get you rested super easily so it's close) so never do it unless you're basically hard reading the drift on her backwards nair or fair and grabbing her while she's airborne. Or grabbing her shield from far away (and even then it's meh and I recommend walking or various other grab spacing setups before that one).

which CG situations in particular need a dash grab?

 

[KirbyKaze]

On horizontal DI trajectories (DI away) at the low percent range of the CG vs other Sheiks, Links, Ganon, etc.

 

[Kaffei]

How do I punish a Falco who does the following:
1. Ledge hop double laser > shine/grab/Falco stuff
2. Laser > Laser > Dair (momentum carries him so he lands behind me) > utilt; Can I just wave dash out of shield and dash attack him?

I'm so bad vs Falco. T_T''

 

[KirbyKaze]

1) Nair OOS between the lasers if you're really close, or shoot a bunch of needles and see if he was good about managing his invulnerability / height if you're far away enough to do them safely.

2) Depends on how they did stuff. If the dair is early or mid height into your shield, WD OOS or roll after the dair. Nair OOS if he's over like 35 (you might hit the back end though so be careful). If the dair is late and you just take it into your shield, roll can still work if you're perfect (buffer is good here) but late aerials in general are good vs shields. You could also nair OOS (or SH back OOS and prepare to nair/fair) between the laser --> dair if he's far away enough and probably stuff his move. You might be able to WD OOS into f-tilt or dash attack too. If you know he's gonna u-tilt then you could just WD OOS and then outspace it or whiff-punish it (DD grab, for instance). Depending on how far away he's getting on the cross up, you could also SH away from him (you'd both have your backs to each other) and bair after he u-tilts or when you drift away enough for your bair to outrange his u-tilt.

 

[Sweet™]

I see some Sheiks who do jab>dtilt whenever a spacie breaks out of their grab. Didn't know how reliable it was.

Any insight?

 

[unknown522]

Well, you can stuff them if they make the wrong action

 

[Spife]

I got a personal problem in the sheik falco match up: I challenge him way to much and try to go toe-to-toe. How I stop being dumb?
I decided to post this cause kk said "don't endure his nonsense" earlier.

 

[Kaffei]

1) Nair OOS between the lasers if you're really close, or shoot a bunch of needles and see if he was good about managing his invulnerability / height if you're far away enough to do them safely.

2) Depends on how they did stuff. If the dair is early or mid height into your shield, WD OOS or roll after the dair. Nair OOS if he's over like 35 (you might hit the back end though so be careful). If the dair is late and you just take it into your shield, roll can still work if you're perfect (buffer is good here) but late aerials in general are good vs shields. You could also nair OOS (or SH back OOS and prepare to nair/fair) between the laser --> dair if he's far away enough and probably stuff his move. You might be able to WD OOS into f-tilt or dash attack too. If you know he's gonna u-tilt then you could just WD OOS and then outspace it or whiff-punish it (DD grab, for instance). Depending on how far away he's getting on the cross up, you could also SH away from him (you'd both have your backs to each other) and bair after he u-tilts or when you drift away enough for your bair to outrange his u-tilt.

Thx so much KK =D

 

[KirbyKaze]

I got a personal problem in the sheik falco match up: I challenge him way to much and try to go toe-to-toe. How I stop being dumb?
I decided to post this cause kk said "don't endure his nonsense" earlier.

I could talk more about defensive play with Sheik and how to avoid bad situations and such if you really want. But all in all you're going to win this MU by killing him in 1-2 good hits (f-tilts that knock him over and lead to a combo, grabs, dash attacks at 20%+, etc). You win by comboing him to death or gimping him more than you win by enduring his bullcrap. If you want to win by enduring him, play Peach, Jigglypuff, ICs, or Brawl.

When I say "don't endure his nonsense" what I really just mean is that (generally speaking) you don't beat Falco through attrition with this character (or almost any character). You outpace his damage and blow him up whenever you touch him. Cactuar told me on AIM rather recently that, "The ultimate goal of any Sheik or Marth is basically to gain the power to kill the other character in 1-2 hits." And for the vast majority of MUs, this is very true for her. In Falco Sheik, this is ESPECIALLY true.

Now you asked about challenging him. I'm not going to lie to you - Sheik mainly plays AROUND or IN RESPONSE TO what Falco is doing for the most part. This is largely a test of COUNTER-FIGHTING. Fighting him head on is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS UNTIL you've staggered him and taken away his ability to laser safely. Once you've done that then go nuts (I recommend SH fair [and the appropriate mixups] classic Amsah style but honestly a lot of stuff works on staggered Falco because he's slow and his highest priority defense moves require him to turn his back to you).

For the most part you are going to be drawing Falco into you more than you go to him. There are a bunch of spacings and defense strategies that enable you to do this with some safety in spite of his efforts to lock you down.

- You can CC lasers into f-tilt / u-tilt if his laser approach will force him to walk a bit forward or dash in order to reach you. This is good vs illegitimate aerial follow ups too.

- You can hang outside his laser > SHFFL range and WD back into stuff or jump back into stuff to beat his approaches.

- You can do the same thing as the above except with shield into WD back or jump back. The main benefit of taking the laser is that you can switch to the first point I listed if they adjust their spacing to a slightly closer one and try to follow with a ground move (but are still too far to follow with the ground move).

- You can waveland off the platform into something or drop with fair or bair from it.

- You can SH over low lasers.

- You can dash attack under high lasers if he's too close (and over 20%).

Aside from that, you're gonna need to be more specific because "I challenge him too much" is really vague and doesn't actually tell me much. If you mean you're doing really dumb aerial approaches with like nair or something then just... don't do that until you've got advantage or predict a panic attack? I don't know what your actual problem is. Give me some specifics if you want real help.

 

[unknown522]

Man that doesn't even work

 

[KirbyKaze]

Go away noob-Fox.

 

[unknown522]

Noob-fox?!?!?!

 

[KirbyKaze]

Did I stutter?

 

[unknown522]

Hyphens are the new way to studder

 

[KirbyKaze]

You stuttered on your reply then.

So let me be clear.

Noob Fox.



edit:

Sheik has awesome "official" attack names.

Best ones are u-smash, her aerials, dash attack, d-throw, and u-tilt IMO.

 

[john!]

edit:

Sheik has awesome "official" attack names.

zelda was trippin 7 years before brawl came out

*hipster*

 

[TaFoKiNtS]

f-smash is the new anti meta

 

[omgwtfToph]

Wait so this whole time, KK wasn't comboing into usmash finisher, he was comboing into RAZOR WING.

siiiiiick.

Edit: KK doesn't CC not actually work against lasers? You suffer the same hitstun whether crouching or not, don't you?

 

[KirbyKaze]

That's news to me. But cool.

 

[Spife]

wow i just got the dumbest idea and i think i know how to execute it too

edit: also thanks kk I'ma read that when i'm not sweepy

 

[Cactuar]

I thought one of the AR junkies had said you could CC lasers. Not being able to would be news to me as well.

 

[omgwtfToph]

Oh. Well I'm not entirely sure. Someone (one of the AR junkies) should confirm/deny. It just seems like for normal moves you can crouch cancel, CC eliminates all hitstun, so I wouldn't expect there to be a single move for which CCing doesn't eliminate all lag, but merely reduces it.

 

[Kaffei]

Pretty sure you can CC lasers but it's significantly less noticeable than CCing other stuff
-shrug-