Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[darkatma]

Mine is the luls

 

[Sweet™]

Yeah. Reeeeaaaaaal excited about mine...

 

[soap]

how does this work? You have to win the bracket to get into the real bracket?

 

[Sweet™]

Top four in the "bracket pools" get out.

 

[Xyzz]

Mine is the luls

Don't you dare disrespecting gimr :D

 

[darkatma]

I hope zavage is actually in my pool instead of zhu's
and I hope he's good

 

[KirbyKaze]

Atma's pool is easier than mine

I call a redo

JK idgaf

 

[unknown522]

Atma has easiest pool at apex.

Followed by that Mexican guy .jpg

Then there are some questionably hard pools

 

[soap]

Top four in the "bracket pools" get out.

Saves alot of time. I like it.

 

[The Business]

dash -> cc -> fair to good
also you can store needles with z = whaaaaat

omg i should make a meme where there's a pic of slow poke and he talks about stuff people already knew about!

that's a clever impression of someone who's never been on the internet before.

made me laugh.

 

[darkatma]

Atma has easiest pool at apex.

Followed by that Mexican guy .jpg

Then there are some questionably hard pools

Heh that's what I said yesterday. Honestly I prefer insanely hard pools like at genesis2

edit: my pool was redone! Now I have tirno on my side, with Darc on the other side. So I have a puff and falco pool as well, KK

Time to think about puff

 

[bubbaking]

Top four in the "bracket pools" get out.

Saves alot of time. I like it.

True, it saves time, but it's not exactly as 'wholesome' or 'fair' as round robin pools. Oh well, one can't have everything.....

 

[unknown522]

Heh that's what I said yesterday. Honestly I prefer insanely hard pools like at genesis2

edit: my pool was redone! Now I have tirno on my side, with Darc on the other side. So I have a puff and falco pool as well, KK

Time to think about puff

that's unfortunate. Top 4 matches aren't being played out apparently. Both players in WF get a 1 seed, and LSF gets 2nd seed

 

[darkatma]

But I wanna play it out with Darc =[
Otherwise pools will be so boring

 

[soap]

True, it saves time, but it's not exactly as 'wholesome' or 'fair' as round robin pools. Oh well, one can't have everything.....

I'd agree with you at regionals, but huge nationals should be run quicker

 

[unknown522]

But I wanna play it out with Darc =[
Otherwise pools will be so boring

new FB update:

They will be playing out up to grand finals. You can play him. It's bo3 though

 

[darkatma]

sweet :D
2nd seed then lawls

 

[Spife]

sweet posted my pool
I hate my pool
I hate how I got a terrible seed in my pool
HOW'S A A DROW SPOSE TO BREAK SEED WHEN I NEVER EVEN GET A BYE?!
PS: sweet I want your blood. Nothing personal, I want everyones blood.


edit: sweet we got terrible seeds, mm if we don't play?

 

[Sweet™]

YoOoOoOOoO.
I'm down.

 

[Kaffei]

how fast is wd oos? for example let's say fox/falco is shield pressuring u. when are the opportunities that you can wd oos safely?

 

[bubbaking]

Sheik's WD OoS is 13 frames, I believe (3 frame jumpsquat + 10 frame WL lag).

 

[Kaffei]

ok but when can i wd out while they are shield pressuring me
cus i see m2k do it all the time but idk

 

[bubbaking]

That depends on the frame advantage on block caused by the hitlag and shieldstun of the move. You'll have to look those numbers up on frame data threads. Here's a post on the issue I made on the Samus boards. I don't know how helpful it will be for you, though.

Edit: To clarify, if a move is -13 or more on block, Sheik can WD OoS before the opponent can act. However, if the move is just -10 on block or more, she can probably WD OoS and still be safe, since most good jabs come out on frame 2 or 3. If a move is -20 or more on block, Sheik can WD OoS and grab the opponent.

When looking at frame advantages, there are some important numbers that you should always keep in mind to get a better idea of the big picture. Below are both universal numbers, shared by the entire cast, and numbers specific to certain characters who are quite important in the OoS department, characters you should pay quite close attention to when attacking their shields:

• 1 = Minimum # of frames jumpsquat adds to any JC action being done OoS (upB, usmash, etc).
• 2 = # of frames a shield plat drop takes, so add this to the start-up of whatever aerial the opponent would be using to hit you OoS.
• 3-8 = # of frames jumpsquat takes for every character (ranges from 3 for Fox to 8 for Bowser), so add this to the start-up of whatever aerial the opponent would be using to hit you OoS.
• 5 = Frame on which the hitbox of Samus' upB OoS comes out (1 frame jumpsquat + frame 4 hitbox). The move is invincible for 5 frames after the jumpsquat (frames 2 to 6).
• 6 = Frame on which the hitbox of Bowser's upB OoS comes out (1 frame jumpsquat + frame 5 hitbox). The move is invincible for 4 frames after the jumpsquat (frames 2 to 5).
• 7 = # of frames it takes for most shieldgrabs to come out. In other words, if a move is -7 or worse on shield and you space it poorly, then you can count on getting grabbed.
• 8 = Frame on which the hitbox of Fox's usmash OoS comes out (1 frame jumpsquat + frame 7 hitbox). In other words, if a move is -8 or worse on shield and you space it poorly against Fox, then you can count on being usmashed. This is extremely important to know because our two moves most used for shield pressure, ftilt and utilt, are -17 and -10 on block, respectively. What does this mean? Even though it's safe when spaced, if you decide to be lazy and just use a utilt directly in front of Fox's shield at any damage above 100%, you can just kiss that stock goodbye!
• 10 = # of frames of WL lag, so add this to the total # of jumpsquat frames for whatever character is WDing to acquire the # of frames it takes that character to WD OoS. This information is also very important. For instance, it takes Sheik 20 frames to WD OoS > grab (3 frame jumpsquat + 10 frame WL + 7 frame grab). Likewise, it takes Fox the exact same number of frames to WD usmash OoS (same jumpsquat and his usmash is also 7 frames). This is why, when spaced, Samus' tilts are so safe on shields, despite being so negative frame-wise on paper.

 

[Kaffei]

idk the data for shine and falco dair and stuff
it also depends on if it's stale or not
cus i rmb KK telling me that it's a lot easier to wd oos when stuff is stale
omg asodkfaoigr

 

[bubbaking]

Yes, it is indeed easier when it's stale because I believe damage directly plays into shieldstun, so lower damage from staling = lower shieldstun and lower frame advantage for the attacker. Um, I don't know about dairs, but I don't think Sheik can successfully WD OoS safely from a shine unless the spacee attacks with an aerial late after the shine. If he attacks with an early aerial after the shine, the shine is safe. However, Sheik can get out after that early aerial. It's how 'holes' are created in the spacees' shield pressure. That's what I can remember from what KK said on spacee pressure, but it would obviously be better if he could come with the info himself.

 

[BSeeD]

Hi guyz.

I'm attending a tournament next week and I will have to face an issue :

The Mario MU.

I mean, there's this player, I keep having the feeling that I have a better overall level, but I keep loosing to him, maybe out of stress, out of not-doing-the-right-things also.

What is the Sheik Mario Mathcup by the book ?
And what personal advices can you give me for this MU (what to avoid, how to avoid, what works the most...) ?

 

[bubbaking]

I'm no high-level Sheik but I've played against a dedicated Mario main for the better part of 3 years, so I have an idea of this MU. Sheik's superior range just really screws over Mario, in my experience. So many things can be stuffed with ftilt. Work on doing that. In addition, Mario is pretty easy to combo out of dthrow. If he doesn't know how to deal with it, you have a CG but sometimes I get upB'd out of it. Mario also has a dthrow CG on us, so be careful.

Uh, really watch out for CC shenanigans. CC dsmash is pretty annoying. Also watch out for random surprise fsmashes. There's a good bit of range and disjoint on that attack.

 

[BSeeD]

Thanks man, I forgot to say I play PAL soooo that CG **** won't work.
Sheik on Mario ofc, coz Mario CGing Sheik still works

Ok, basically u tell me to avoid what I'm loosing to : CC D smashes, d throw CG and random f smashes.

^^

I'll try to be more patient then, and space my f tilts better.

Anyone else ?

 

[Purpletuce]

It is probably something like, play better, because the Mario is probably outlying you, unless you're playing the mu really bad. If you're losing to something, stop putting yourself in a position to lose to it. Ex: losing to random f smashes? Space better to avoid them more, and make sure you punish them harder. Unless he is reading you hard, you can make it so the chance of him getting punished by missing a f smash with the severity of the punish outweighs the reward for the chance of it hitting.

 

[Sweet™]

Downthrow.

 

[Gea]

Play your range and camp. Learn how to DI and react to his jabs, jab setups should basically never work on you. Getting poked by ftilt beats getting grabbed or aerial -> smashed.

It's kind of a stretch because m2k played it to the extreme, but look at m2k vs shroomed. He stays by the edge under a platform and doesn't get overly aggressive. The Marios can only bring the pain if they get close. Step up that zoning game and outspace him.

 

[BSeeD]

Ty everyone.

Point is I get ****ed by his fkn flameballs when I'm away trying to spam.
He doesn't approach and it gets me nervous, sometimes he even just stays up on the floor and spam B -_-

Guess I just have to trust myself more and be aware of the fact that he basically CAN'T outspam me.

I'm gonna check M2K Shroomed

As for sweet, I said I was in PAL version. If ur talking about PAL downthrow though, I would be interested to see where u wanna go.

KK maybe somethig to say ? I guess no, u would have answered faster if u had something to say

 

[garrR]

can i get some critique on a tournament set i played vs a falco recently?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5bjndpB6B0

it was a tournament set, so i was nervous, so please ignore the obvious mistakes like the terribly botched edgeguard on the last stock of game 1.

 

[soap]

can i get some critique on a tournament set i played vs a falco recently?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5bjndpB6B0

it was a tournament set, so i was nervous, so please ignore the obvious mistakes like the terribly botched edgeguard on the last stock of game 1.

ya that was a pretty epic choke game 1

don't sweat it tho I have done the same thing before in tourney. You came back nicely game 2, then kinda just fell apart game 3.


Overall you have all the fundamentals down you are just very sloppy. Game 1 you had bad spacing and kept letting him jump on top of you off the side platforms. Either go under his platform or space away under the other one. Don't short hop too far away from him. Leaves you wide open for his dash attacks or whatever he wants really.

You tech chase regrab fairly well, but I would suggest switching to a combo starter around 50-60 such as a dash attack/running ftilt, maybe a dair or usmash for in place techs if you are comfortable with those. Regrabbing continously is very difficult and will not get them offstage either. Even if they crouch cancel your launchers I find it easy to follow up off a knockdown with another launcher than to regrab.

You had some nice edgeguards but you botch quite a few too. When in doubt get to the ledge and bair.

In general some nice movement I'm seeing, and good color choice

 

[unknown522]

You can do it way less than 50-60%

 

[Xyzz]

You should do it way less than 50-60%

Fixed
10chars

 

[BSeeD]

Sorry, I'm coming back to my Mario MU

Today I watched several videos of Sheik VS Shroomed, and in fact, something came out.

KK and M2K are winning regularly to Shroomed, contrary to other Sheiks (Tec0, Darkatma etc), because of 2 main reasons :

- They manage to stay out of DSmash and Jabs range, they try not to find themselves in Mario's crouch sheananigans etc

- They recover very good

That said, I guess Mario MU is a very defensive MU and spacing Mario's short range attacks is the key to win.

Tell me if I you think I missed something important.

Another question : I see KK and M2K tryin to go on BF and YS, is it a MU pick or a personal preference ?

The Mario I'm going to play against can use UpB Walljump UpB 100% of the time on YS, do you guyz think it is a big deal, even though Mario will die more from up or away against Sheik ?

 

[Jolteon]

imo vs fireballs/pills it's better to just charge a full set of needles and then begin to close space between the two of you. Fireballs don't really do a lot punish-wise and if the Mario is giving up space you should capatalise on that, as Sheik is pretty good vs cornered opponents.

Things to remember when pressuring Mario: Space stuff to avoid dsmash (cc'd or not), don't be afraid to just simply grab if they rely on shield a lot, it's a great tool to condition them to stop shielding. Abuse his range. If he tries to brute force his way out then either stuff his moves with yours or just dd out of the way and then punish his lag.

PAL dthrow on Mario is decent, you can dash attack on DI away and there's other good follow-ups such as running dtilt. They can up+b to get out of dthrow stuff but up+b is punishable if you bait it, run up shield is an effective tool for that.

edit: vs Mario in particular I prefer DL, Sheik can live forever on that stage since he doesn't have fair to kill with, and with good edgeguards you can still kill Mario at respectable percents.

 

[unknown522]

The wall jump up-b doesn't matter. There are lots of ways to prevent him from getting to the wall.....assuming he can even make it there.

I think DL64 is sheik's best stage vs Mario/doc. And by that I mean it is Mario/doc's worst stage in majority of matchups. BF is pretty bad for Mario. Better for doc though. Doc has some pretty solid platform setups there which he can setup his up-b. plus the wide horizontal blast zones + high ceiling/low stage height lets him utilize his pills and moves a bit for recovery. Yoshi's is pretty good for recovery as well for similar reasons, but he dies and gets knocked off really fast.

Mario is kinda solid on yoshi's because his main weaknesses aren't as bad on that stage (low kill power/edgeguard setups, and campable). But the opponent is still sheik though.

 

[BSeeD]

Ok, so, basically, what I said + bait the upB after downthrow (happens ALL the time with him) + go on DL preferably or BF ( I like the idea of BF cause it's the stage I'm the most comfortable with ).

Thank you guyz for all your advices, and if someone thinks about something else, don't hesitate to share it