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Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA
- Thread starter KirbyKaze
- Start date
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Nair ***** tacos etc
soap
Smash Hero
way too much dair. I love dair myself so I recognize the urge to use it in the situations you are choosing, but realize it is easily crouch cancellable, and it will just get you baired if you try recovering high with it.Space bair and fair around falco, if you wanna go directly into him use a fastfalled nair. Stick to using dair in your combos.Then...
here it is :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgiibtiHNv8
Please please please guyz critique my sheik.
I know I miss a lot of consistency already
speaking of combos, you kept landing dair and charging usmashes in place. you need to follow their DI with a running usmash/tilt/dair or dash attack
lastly, get off stage and bair. way too many missed edgeguard opportunities. Every time he comes in high, that's a bair. Even if you can't hit him directly out of the firefalco, you can get to an intermediate distance where the top leg intercepts high angles and her off-leg will clip the sweetspot angle. You can needle turn falling bair the illusion too if you get good at it. It basically covers everything.
I knew you'd get it. After a while you seem to have all the time in the world during your fastfall.
I'd practice with the fullhop too. Differentiate between getting a falling head level nair for interception, and waiting a fraction of a second and putting it on the floor for shield pressure.
SonuvaBeach
Smash Lord
You throw out way too many moves that serve absolutely no purpose. As KK calls it, flailing. Place your moves where they threaten his space or could hit him. No need to throw out bairs when he's across the stage.Then...
here it is :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgiibtiHNv8
Please please please guyz critique my sheik.
I know I miss a lot of consistency already
Recognize when he can tech on a platform and follow accordingly. A minute in and he's tech'd on the platform above you twice after your dash attack and you missed the follow up b/c you tried to fair as if he couldn't tech.
Yes, you use dair too often. It isn't safe on shields and when you're dropping through platforms to him really. He'll just bair you.
Speaking of, work on how you drop through platforms into his space.
I'm not a fan of throwing single needles at all. Instead move into his space and pressure him. 2 or 3 percent doesn't really do much.
Watch m2k/kk/tope/lucien/etc for edgeguarding ideas. m2k for how to cover backthrow gimps and in general. KK for creative and other ideas. But yes, it needs work.
It just looks like you need a better understanding of the matchup and when you are actually threatened by falco and when you can threaten him. At one point you were above him on the platform and dropped through...he thought you'd fair so he threw up his shield. You just landed and threw up your own shield. You could have landed and grabbed, or faired to whatever. Or many other things. This goes off of above - work on how you use platforms to threaten his space. Pick and choose your openings, specifically when he is underneath you where you can hit him with your legs or fair spaced. Watch videos of PP vs m2k or KK vs PP/falco's for ideas.
Only watched two games, but I didn't see any techchases. Or tech reads really. Most hits turn into opportunities to tech-chase. Practice recognizing this and reacting to his options.
I really need to work on that. It definitely doesn't feel like you have forever to me, soap. lol
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
BSeed
You need to keep track of things better in general.
There are a lot of instances where you go to fair him and as I'm watching the situation unfold (he's sidestepped, you've timed the fair for his lag, you're 100% going to hit the fair) it's clear you've got this. But then after hitting him, as expected, you do something that makes no sense like f-tilt. When Falco's at like 70%. This could be a lot of things: you could be forgetting his percentage, you might not expect your fair to connect, or you might be expecting him to ground tech roll inwards. Point is, though, this f-tilt to follow your fair is the byproduct of some error in processing. I'm guessing your awareness just isn't very high right now since a lot of Sheiks have automatic, non-reactive playstyles but it could be a variety of things. Pay more attention to the situation and strive to take in more information effectively, efficiently, and accurately. You will cut down on misplays like this and it will give you more for your openings.
Beyond that, you're just doing moves that don't interact with him. Tr3mor said I tell people to not do moves from far away but that's not completely true. You have a good projectile and sex kicks; you can zone with your attacks and be safe / semi-safe from a variety of common reactions. Even vs Falco. But you're doing things like going to the top platform and running off with bair (when Falco is across the stage) and then jumping around on that platform so you can land back on it with bair. This makes no sense because Falco's main answers to that situation (laser high to deny platform drop aerial while moving in to get under you for either uairs, bairs, or shine-land > stuff OR jumping to the very top platform > WL forward / run off > dair on your head) are not in any way policed by what you are doing. You could have, for instance, needled diagonally towards the middle to zone him from the center (prevent him from moving in) or even disrupted his strategy (hit the laser so you can run off with aerial and possibly turn the situation on him). But you didn't. You did something because it probably felt fast and like you were keeping tempo. Which is acceptable, but your tempo shouldn't come at the cost of giving openings without accomplishing anything. The reason I like the needles onto the platform is that they're no different than empty land in terms of lag and options after the action is completed, so there's no penalty. This doesn't mean: "It's broken, do it always." Rather, keep in mind that what feels fast and assertive... isn't necessarily that.
I'm never sure how to analyze the risk-reward games of a PAL Sheik simply because the edge cancel on her d-throw is so easy but if you can spot him trying to do it, feel free to up smash him into a brutal combo.
I see you like dair. Dair is only good if you know they're going to miss something laggy and the percent restriction isn't a factor (either they're at the percent or they're airborne) and you misuse it... it's low priority so beware vs people who space better than this guy. I also feel that the percent restriction makes moves that knock down earlier (strong bair, f-tilt, dash attack, grab, NTSC uair) better to fish for in general. Dair is only good from 40%+ IMO or if the opponent does something really... stupid. I really do like how you use it OOS though. I've been meaning to experiment with that kind of setup, since it's something Falcon and Ganon have been doing forever. SH OOS away from foe, then wait and see if there's an opening, and if so then go for the dair. Since it's an aerial, if they move in and shield you can probably just adjust the spot you hit them with your FF to hit it low into the shield to get a dash away out before they can counterattack. It's good. I enjoyed that.
Oh and in general, I prefer SHing as a means to maneuver vs spacies approaches as opposed to FJ > WL off platform. This means you will need to get better at the back-jump, but honestly I think freaking everyone needs to get better at back-jump. If you want artificially better SH back fairs and crap because you use the FJ to negotiate space because your SH back just doesn't seem to do "enough" then I'd suggest learning how to back-jump at will, in any situation, with amazing consistency because it really does make that much of a difference. On that note, I really like that you use nair when you've confirmed the opponent's left an opening in some instances because I feel late, low nair often combos or leads to better stuff than fair (partially because of trajectory, partially because of damage, partially because of knockdown percent).
Oh and on gimping. If you're going to b-throw into needles, understand that vs Falco you're dealing with a character who's way more likely to get caught in a path if you shoot them at the right angle because of his bigger DJ and he tends to act on things more aggressively in general because of how he's played and because of his DJ dair recovery option that beats somewhat lengthier offstage aerial setups (the quintessential example being run off > DJ > nair [in some way]). Don't delay on your needles. To be frank, I don't like needles in this metagame much anyway simply because SDI > edgegrab / illusion makes them simply not work a lot of the time even if you hit them. For that reason I'm developing a growing fondness for SH onstage > drift backwards after the peak of the jump > bair into stuff and strategies like that. Just stay out of his dair and if he does it then punish it with your favourite offstage air chain. Otherwise, just respond to how he positions himself. If you can do good wavelands from the edge, grabbing the edge and WL grabbing him for side-Bing to land onstage into more b-throw (or a combo throw, which is underrated IMO if the b-throw made him cross an important percent threshold and unlocked a useful option [like, say, f-tilt or dash attack] and/or if you're just good at the tech chase). That said, what you're doing isn't all bad here; I really liked the soft nair > land on plat > run off fair you did in game two when he recovered really high with his firebird. I probably would have tipper u-smashed and done like 60%+ in combo damage but your method was a lot more concise. More importantly, hitting the soft nair basically assured he'd die whereas mine doesn't so good stuff.
Whenever you're jabbing a space animal and they're popping up high enough for more jabs to be a true combo, you could have tilted into fair. Or d-smashed them. And it's almost always better than grabbing in that instance unless you somehow know they're going to DI the throw badly and allow you to continue off the throw. Which is rare in NTSC and likely even rarer in PAL since they can't go behind you on the throw to manipulate their defensive positioning on those terms. So if you start the jab chain, remember to finish it properly.
Up throw only works when the DI behind and no DI option forces the opponent to land on a platform overhead. At 45% on Fox (and I think 55% on Falco) you can combo u-tilt if they pick the no-DI option, so that opens up some freedom with the positioning. Otherwise, stick to d-throw exclusively if you're trying to combo because your u-throw honestly blows. And even when it works it's sometimes not that great (although I'll admit I've gotten through some sets exclusively on the back of landing BS u-throw > foe lands on plat > SH uair > more SH uair > eventually they get launched or roll to the edge and I hit them offstage or freestyle a big combo from there. But even then I usually at least try to have the positioning correct. Edgecancels can botch this, but it's an awkward move to edgecancel and thus far I've only seen Unknown522 do it with some consistency.
You need to grab the edge more comfortably and faster. And act off it more comfortably and faster. But this can be directed at every Sheik minus M2K.
Sheik is fun.
You need to keep track of things better in general.
There are a lot of instances where you go to fair him and as I'm watching the situation unfold (he's sidestepped, you've timed the fair for his lag, you're 100% going to hit the fair) it's clear you've got this. But then after hitting him, as expected, you do something that makes no sense like f-tilt. When Falco's at like 70%. This could be a lot of things: you could be forgetting his percentage, you might not expect your fair to connect, or you might be expecting him to ground tech roll inwards. Point is, though, this f-tilt to follow your fair is the byproduct of some error in processing. I'm guessing your awareness just isn't very high right now since a lot of Sheiks have automatic, non-reactive playstyles but it could be a variety of things. Pay more attention to the situation and strive to take in more information effectively, efficiently, and accurately. You will cut down on misplays like this and it will give you more for your openings.
Beyond that, you're just doing moves that don't interact with him. Tr3mor said I tell people to not do moves from far away but that's not completely true. You have a good projectile and sex kicks; you can zone with your attacks and be safe / semi-safe from a variety of common reactions. Even vs Falco. But you're doing things like going to the top platform and running off with bair (when Falco is across the stage) and then jumping around on that platform so you can land back on it with bair. This makes no sense because Falco's main answers to that situation (laser high to deny platform drop aerial while moving in to get under you for either uairs, bairs, or shine-land > stuff OR jumping to the very top platform > WL forward / run off > dair on your head) are not in any way policed by what you are doing. You could have, for instance, needled diagonally towards the middle to zone him from the center (prevent him from moving in) or even disrupted his strategy (hit the laser so you can run off with aerial and possibly turn the situation on him). But you didn't. You did something because it probably felt fast and like you were keeping tempo. Which is acceptable, but your tempo shouldn't come at the cost of giving openings without accomplishing anything. The reason I like the needles onto the platform is that they're no different than empty land in terms of lag and options after the action is completed, so there's no penalty. This doesn't mean: "It's broken, do it always." Rather, keep in mind that what feels fast and assertive... isn't necessarily that.
I'm never sure how to analyze the risk-reward games of a PAL Sheik simply because the edge cancel on her d-throw is so easy but if you can spot him trying to do it, feel free to up smash him into a brutal combo.
I see you like dair. Dair is only good if you know they're going to miss something laggy and the percent restriction isn't a factor (either they're at the percent or they're airborne) and you misuse it... it's low priority so beware vs people who space better than this guy. I also feel that the percent restriction makes moves that knock down earlier (strong bair, f-tilt, dash attack, grab, NTSC uair) better to fish for in general. Dair is only good from 40%+ IMO or if the opponent does something really... stupid. I really do like how you use it OOS though. I've been meaning to experiment with that kind of setup, since it's something Falcon and Ganon have been doing forever. SH OOS away from foe, then wait and see if there's an opening, and if so then go for the dair. Since it's an aerial, if they move in and shield you can probably just adjust the spot you hit them with your FF to hit it low into the shield to get a dash away out before they can counterattack. It's good. I enjoyed that.
Oh and in general, I prefer SHing as a means to maneuver vs spacies approaches as opposed to FJ > WL off platform. This means you will need to get better at the back-jump, but honestly I think freaking everyone needs to get better at back-jump. If you want artificially better SH back fairs and crap because you use the FJ to negotiate space because your SH back just doesn't seem to do "enough" then I'd suggest learning how to back-jump at will, in any situation, with amazing consistency because it really does make that much of a difference. On that note, I really like that you use nair when you've confirmed the opponent's left an opening in some instances because I feel late, low nair often combos or leads to better stuff than fair (partially because of trajectory, partially because of damage, partially because of knockdown percent).
Oh and on gimping. If you're going to b-throw into needles, understand that vs Falco you're dealing with a character who's way more likely to get caught in a path if you shoot them at the right angle because of his bigger DJ and he tends to act on things more aggressively in general because of how he's played and because of his DJ dair recovery option that beats somewhat lengthier offstage aerial setups (the quintessential example being run off > DJ > nair [in some way]). Don't delay on your needles. To be frank, I don't like needles in this metagame much anyway simply because SDI > edgegrab / illusion makes them simply not work a lot of the time even if you hit them. For that reason I'm developing a growing fondness for SH onstage > drift backwards after the peak of the jump > bair into stuff and strategies like that. Just stay out of his dair and if he does it then punish it with your favourite offstage air chain. Otherwise, just respond to how he positions himself. If you can do good wavelands from the edge, grabbing the edge and WL grabbing him for side-Bing to land onstage into more b-throw (or a combo throw, which is underrated IMO if the b-throw made him cross an important percent threshold and unlocked a useful option [like, say, f-tilt or dash attack] and/or if you're just good at the tech chase). That said, what you're doing isn't all bad here; I really liked the soft nair > land on plat > run off fair you did in game two when he recovered really high with his firebird. I probably would have tipper u-smashed and done like 60%+ in combo damage but your method was a lot more concise. More importantly, hitting the soft nair basically assured he'd die whereas mine doesn't so good stuff.
Whenever you're jabbing a space animal and they're popping up high enough for more jabs to be a true combo, you could have tilted into fair. Or d-smashed them. And it's almost always better than grabbing in that instance unless you somehow know they're going to DI the throw badly and allow you to continue off the throw. Which is rare in NTSC and likely even rarer in PAL since they can't go behind you on the throw to manipulate their defensive positioning on those terms. So if you start the jab chain, remember to finish it properly.
Up throw only works when the DI behind and no DI option forces the opponent to land on a platform overhead. At 45% on Fox (and I think 55% on Falco) you can combo u-tilt if they pick the no-DI option, so that opens up some freedom with the positioning. Otherwise, stick to d-throw exclusively if you're trying to combo because your u-throw honestly blows. And even when it works it's sometimes not that great (although I'll admit I've gotten through some sets exclusively on the back of landing BS u-throw > foe lands on plat > SH uair > more SH uair > eventually they get launched or roll to the edge and I hit them offstage or freestyle a big combo from there. But even then I usually at least try to have the positioning correct. Edgecancels can botch this, but it's an awkward move to edgecancel and thus far I've only seen Unknown522 do it with some consistency.
You need to grab the edge more comfortably and faster. And act off it more comfortably and faster. But this can be directed at every Sheik minus M2K.
Sheik is fun.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
Tremor, I think one of the things that made me "get it" was that I started hitting A and L at the same time. So I do short hop, wait, down (fastfall), and A+L (nair + L-cancel).
That might be a no-brainer, but it may help you.
That might be a no-brainer, but it may help you.
Kaffei
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2008
- Messages
- 7,048
KirbyKaze, I have a question about Sheik vs Fox
What do I do against Foxes that play really aggresively? Do I just react to what they are doing and then use appropriate stuffs (ie if they try to dair me from directly above I can up tilt)
Also what are some good ways to get Fox to 24%? needles/grabs/fair? also im really bad at landing fair for some reason maybe im not spacing it right or reacting correctly idk asdfiadhfad
What do I do against Foxes that play really aggresively? Do I just react to what they are doing and then use appropriate stuffs (ie if they try to dair me from directly above I can up tilt)
Also what are some good ways to get Fox to 24%? needles/grabs/fair? also im really bad at landing fair for some reason maybe im not spacing it right or reacting correctly idk asdfiadhfad
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Below 24% vs aggressive Foxes I mostly just try to make them run into my grab. Watch me vs Chillin from TBH2 or my set vs SFAT at Impulse if you need a visual. Aside from that, I tend to find that SHing away and timing a bair to sweetspot on them is a pretty solid way to begin and then you see how they adjust to it. If you whiff the bair, you can probably move or attack before they can directly punish you; in general I think it's better to whiff the spaced bair than it is to touch the 0% space animal with a weak bair and eat something lame like shine > moveset > hyper combo finish.
Falling needles are also a decent poke. If you're able to directly combo into grab, sweet. If not then just continue poking at them in whatever way seems appropriate.
I like fair but the lower range and brief duration is sometimes awkward defensively. It's still really good though simply because it's more all-purpose than bair and the consistent hit on it can make it more convenient for comboing into grab.
Up tilt and f-tilt can be a solid play at low percent but you absolutely have to hit them on an airborne foe or else you can't do anything with them and you'll probably get *****.
On FOD you can u-smash if they're on the low platform above you and it's really good at low percent.
In general Sheik functions best with people sideways to her in some way. Try to keep them from going directly above you if possible. If you've jumped and the position is compromised 'cuz they FJed around you or something, if you're facing them then timing fair works solidly in that instance because of how it covers her face on its first two frames. If your back is turned, maybe try to fade and get out of the way or something. That position kind of blows :/
Falling needles are also a decent poke. If you're able to directly combo into grab, sweet. If not then just continue poking at them in whatever way seems appropriate.
I like fair but the lower range and brief duration is sometimes awkward defensively. It's still really good though simply because it's more all-purpose than bair and the consistent hit on it can make it more convenient for comboing into grab.
Up tilt and f-tilt can be a solid play at low percent but you absolutely have to hit them on an airborne foe or else you can't do anything with them and you'll probably get *****.
On FOD you can u-smash if they're on the low platform above you and it's really good at low percent.
In general Sheik functions best with people sideways to her in some way. Try to keep them from going directly above you if possible. If you've jumped and the position is compromised 'cuz they FJed around you or something, if you're facing them then timing fair works solidly in that instance because of how it covers her face on its first two frames. If your back is turned, maybe try to fade and get out of the way or something. That position kind of blows :/
soap
Smash Hero
Double jump away bair works nicely if you see em climbing on top of you fron behind
Yagzathoth
Smash Rookie
Shoutout to Shiek Stomp tech chasing.
You know the kind.
You know the kind.
unknown522
Some guy
It's all about SH d-air over a getup attack. It feels so satisfying
silentSWAG
Smash Lord
naw the weak bair to grab
thATS WhErE ITs aT
thATS WhErE ITs aT
LOL JOHNY.
YOUR AVl MADE ME LAUGH
YOUR AVl MADE ME LAUGH
BSeeD
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2007
- Messages
- 281
Thanks guyz for your advices.
Awful sheik ditto of me vs Slhoka incoming for critique -_-
Edit : BTW, it didn't hit me at first, but what about those 24% you are talking about ?
I know you can start juggling ffers with ftilt/utilt around those %, so my guess will be that this is the minimum % you can ftilt > fair or smthg like that ?
Awful sheik ditto of me vs Slhoka incoming for critique -_-
Edit : BTW, it didn't hit me at first, but what about those 24% you are talking about ?
I know you can start juggling ffers with ftilt/utilt around those %, so my guess will be that this is the minimum % you can ftilt > fair or smthg like that ?
Kaffei
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2008
- Messages
- 7,048
24% (25% if stale) is the percent that Fox will get knocked over by Sheik's Ftilt. Any lower, and he won't fall down.
20%~21% is the percent that Fox will get knocked over by dash attack.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Those are also the %'s where you really want to be wary of Fox's CC shenanigans. CC usmash is very real and makes Fox among the cheapest characters in this game. CC shine's also up there. 
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
Fixed.Those are also the %'s where you really want to be wryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy of Fox's CC shenanigans. CC usmash is very real and makes Fox among the cheapest characters in this game. CC shine's also up there.
Smooth Criminal
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
If Fox crouch cancels a lot just grab, or if you're in the air land and shield. Fox players rarely crouch cancel grab aerials.
silentSWAG
Smash Lord
this is the agro approach say like if u know there bad
but u can avoid cc grabs by spacing correctly and waiting for them to do that grab
then u can react to that with an execution
and by spacing correctly i mean in everyway (stage wise)
especially Ariels like fair to space fair way enough u can hit them and be out of range
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Rarely =/= can't or won't. CCing Foxes are allowed to be smart too.
silentSWAG
Smash Lord
bro put in ur solution ill give u better oneRarely =/= can't or won't. CCing Foxes are allowed to be smart too.
Renth
Smash Hero
Swag, Next time I'm in pittsburgh I want to get a first to five wins MM with you.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Actually, I was replying to Chival, not you. I didn't see your post until I put mine in. I agree with everything you said.
Edit: It was more a reply to "Fox players rarely crouch cancel grab." As you put it, it's better to just play in a way that prevents such a strat from working unless you "know they're bad." Then you can just disrespect them.
soap
Smash Hero
na, alot fox players are also marth players, and they cc grab
just space
you should never really be in fox's grab range anyway unless you went in there to utilt
just space
you should never really be in fox's grab range anyway unless you went in there to utilt
TaFoKiNtS
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2005
- Messages
- 1,027
BSeeD
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2007
- Messages
- 281
Ok guyz, a couple of questions if you have some time/knowledge to spare
1° On a earlier post KK said exactly this : "Below 24% vs aggressive Foxes I mostly just try to make them run into my grab"
What are your favorite/most efficient way of baiting someone into a grab with Sheik ?
I mean, for instance, I know I'm supposed to grab a Fox until he's 20%, but he also know it and damn it's hard to grab a Fox fleeing or drillshining ur shield and stuff.
2° While testing some **** I discovered you can FH rising needles, and then rejump while falling if u do it fast. With that you can FH needle, rejump needle for instance.
Frankly, I don't remember watching any Sheik using this, and even though the timing is hard, I don't think it's hard to perform for a good player.
My question is : Were you aware of that technique ? If so, do you use it ? Why/Why not ?
3° If u guyz have some time, here's three sets of teams I need criticized.
I don't really need advices for the stupid things I do sometimes (like charging smashes on my mate or runnin into an opponent and getting hit ) as they are for the most part due to technical garbage I have to get rid of, but if you have any useful advice I'll take it anyway
BSeeD/DjaGoF VS JiM/Metalfox
BSeeD/DjaGoF VS Datto/Meljin
BSeeD/DjaGoF VS Tekk/Qlex
(for this set, it's obvious we 4 are playing without a lot of focus, as DjaGoF and me play with Tekk every day and we all knew there was no way for us to win )
1° On a earlier post KK said exactly this : "Below 24% vs aggressive Foxes I mostly just try to make them run into my grab"
What are your favorite/most efficient way of baiting someone into a grab with Sheik ?
I mean, for instance, I know I'm supposed to grab a Fox until he's 20%, but he also know it and damn it's hard to grab a Fox fleeing or drillshining ur shield and stuff.
2° While testing some **** I discovered you can FH rising needles, and then rejump while falling if u do it fast. With that you can FH needle, rejump needle for instance.
Frankly, I don't remember watching any Sheik using this, and even though the timing is hard, I don't think it's hard to perform for a good player.
My question is : Were you aware of that technique ? If so, do you use it ? Why/Why not ?
3° If u guyz have some time, here's three sets of teams I need criticized.
I don't really need advices for the stupid things I do sometimes (like charging smashes on my mate or runnin into an opponent and getting hit
) as they are for the most part due to technical garbage I have to get rid of, but if you have any useful advice I'll take it anyway BSeeD/DjaGoF VS JiM/Metalfox
BSeeD/DjaGoF VS Datto/Meljin
BSeeD/DjaGoF VS Tekk/Qlex
(for this set, it's obvious we 4 are playing without a lot of focus, as DjaGoF and me play with Tekk every day and we all knew there was no way for us to win
)
soap
Smash Hero
1. Favorite way to grab fox? I like to stalk his landings with utilts into grabs
2. Nobody does the rejump thing because it is incredibly slow and you have like 3 seconds of vulnerability just hanging in the air in lag. Needles cancel when you land. They are better falling.
3. I might watch the vids later
2. Nobody does the rejump thing because it is incredibly slow and you have like 3 seconds of vulnerability just hanging in the air in lag. Needles cancel when you land. They are better falling.
3. I might watch the vids later
bubbaking
Smash Hero
I'm not surprised by the first match since Sheik literally invalidates Samus, but that second match..... :-O
silentSWAG
Smash Lord
lol bro get at me
NewJerusalem
Smash Apprentice
Anyone know anything on Sheik vs Ice Climbers ?
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Uhhh, fair a lot? I've actually played against a good deal of Ice Climbers despite them being rare or something. I usually just platform camped and spaced with fair/bair and I was fine for most of my matches.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Vs ground ICs
Lead ins:
Low nair
Low bair
SH fair
Then either f-tilt or jump again depending on the spacing, percent, and whether you think they're going to WD OOS or just continue to shield.
Camping needles & platforms is really useful at low percents and can be great in general.
Vs airborne ICs
**** them with range
I recommend u-tilt, bair, uair, and f-tilt. Keep them in the air, juggle to death. Nana is easy to low percent KO with (charge) tipped u-smash or offstage aerial chains / bair.
Lead ins:
Low nair
Low bair
SH fair
Then either f-tilt or jump again depending on the spacing, percent, and whether you think they're going to WD OOS or just continue to shield.
Camping needles & platforms is really useful at low percents and can be great in general.
Vs airborne ICs
**** them with range
I recommend u-tilt, bair, uair, and f-tilt. Keep them in the air, juggle to death. Nana is easy to low percent KO with (charge) tipped u-smash or offstage aerial chains / bair.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Okay, here's one problem. If you try spaced aerial to f-tilt, Fox can always CC upsmash and it will outpriorize your f-tilt MOST of the time. If you don't tilt, he can just run after you and dash attack or grab if you shield. If you d-smash he can shield it and punish through wavedash out of shield/drill out of shield.
silentSWAG
Smash Lord
yes but ur if is invalid if u carfeuly wait
just sayin what matters most in order
1. what the other player thinks of u
2. The situation ur in
3. ur tech skill to execute
now compare this to sheik and ull know how much work it is
just sayin what matters most in order
1. what the other player thinks of u
2. The situation ur in
3. ur tech skill to execute
now compare this to sheik and ull know how much work it is
bubbaking
Smash Hero
This seems like an RPS situation where you can also win if you guess/read correctly. If you read that Fox is going to shield or jump, ftilt will probably be safe on his shield (if you spaced the fair and subsequent ftilt) and will stuff his jump. If you read that he's going to CC usmash, you can just shield (or maybe even grab) the usmash and then WD OoS punish. If you don't tilt and he runs after you, you can grab him (which is what I'm guessing is one of the ways that KK mentioned of getting Foxes to "run into" his grab). Also, a tilt will beat any of his 'run after you' options.
It's a big RPS game and you just have to make the right read. I don't know why you'd dsmash, though. Tbh, the option I'm most afraid of is CC shine or something else that leads into shine.
joejoe22802
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2005
- Messages
- 873
Chival is right though. Don't do anything ever. If the fox knows everything you can and will do, you're done. Just go eat a sandwich instead.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
LOL I've been chiding people for saying stuff like that for years.
unknown522
Some guy
@ chival: if you're afraid of those specific options, then why not just jump again after the f-air? Everyone of those options lose to simply jumping over them