darkatma
Smash Hero
Swedish probably best USA sheik right now after m2k
-
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Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA
- Thread starter KirbyKaze
- Start date
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I can agree with that.
I'm hoping you step it up though. I'm rooting for you, Atma <3
You've been off peoples' radars for far too long. As I've said before, it is my suspicion that to reach the next level of this game, you may need to focus on one of your characters and delegate the other to backup (even if you continue to play and develop both fairly equally, knowing who your tournament character is gives a lot of power). That said, you often surprise me so maybe you'll manage to successfully dual main
That would be hot.
I'm hoping you step it up though. I'm rooting for you, Atma <3
You've been off peoples' radars for far too long. As I've said before, it is my suspicion that to reach the next level of this game, you may need to focus on one of your characters and delegate the other to backup (even if you continue to play and develop both fairly equally, knowing who your tournament character is gives a lot of power). That said, you often surprise me so maybe you'll manage to successfully dual main
That would be hot.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
I was kind of thinking Shroomed. Or does he not count? I'm kind of used to thinking of him as a Sheik main since he primarily goes Sheik in locals lol.
Walking forward when they DI away (like Swedish said), and then boost grabbing helps me a lot.
Walking forward when they DI away (like Swedish said), and then boost grabbing helps me a lot.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
Anyone want to give me an elementary rundown on how Sheik works in neutral? I really would appreciate this since I am having a hard time with my Sheik right now.
After many months of solo Falco I feel so naked when I play Sheik. Something I've noticed across the board when it comes to Sheik play/players is that Sheik tends to dash dance less than most characters. It's almost as if dash dancing with Sheik is more about small positional adjustments and is used differently than a Fox/Falcon/Marth (the dashdancers) DD.
I see more WD back and ftilt in neutral yet I don't exactly understand the zoning aspect of ftilt (or fair for that matter) and how you piece those things together to have a solid neutral game. Sheik can't exactly approach that well without the opponent doing something clearly wrong and that also feels quite foreign.
After many months of solo Falco I feel so naked when I play Sheik. Something I've noticed across the board when it comes to Sheik play/players is that Sheik tends to dash dance less than most characters. It's almost as if dash dancing with Sheik is more about small positional adjustments and is used differently than a Fox/Falcon/Marth (the dashdancers) DD.
I see more WD back and ftilt in neutral yet I don't exactly understand the zoning aspect of ftilt (or fair for that matter) and how you piece those things together to have a solid neutral game. Sheik can't exactly approach that well without the opponent doing something clearly wrong and that also feels quite foreign.
Swedish Delight
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2010
- Messages
- 30
Swedish, I think you're at the level where you'd benefit a lot more from discussing your matches with me in an actual conversation rather than me giving you a critique. Add me on AIM or FB or something and we can go from there. I like your Sheik and have much to discuss with you
In that case, what's your name on fb?
This. That's why I had to give her up for fox. Sorry guys T_TI can agree with that.
I'm hoping you step it up though. I'm rooting for you, Atma <3
You've been off peoples' radars for far too long. As I've said before, it is my suspicion that to reach the next level of this game, you may need to focus on one of your characters and delegate the other to backup (even if you continue to play and develop both fairly equally, knowing who your tournament character is gives a lot of power). That said, you often surprise me so maybe you'll manage to successfully dual main
That would be hot.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
You should be able to find me with kirbykaze3038.
TaFoKiNtS
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2005
- Messages
- 1,027
Swedish - I love your zoning. You know where to be and it seems like you know how to fight the mid-long range game really well. I think a little tinkering with shield game knowledge, and you'll be amazing. It looked like you were a little unsure with when to nair OOS vs. other moves against spacies, but I think that will come with a little more experience.
What do you guys think about when playing Sheik?
Here's what I try to focus on (usually just try to focus on doing 1 thing per match):
*Constantly ask myself, "Can I land a JC/Dash canceled grab right now?"
*Should I WD back now?
*Spend the entire match watching my opponent instead of myself
*Each stock, try adopting a different playstyle (campy, aggressive, or probably the best one - constantly in their face without overextending)
*Try to stay totally grounded unless you hit the opponent
*Focus on the physical button presses - think solely about the buttons you will push and the order you will push them in (good to help with sloppy presses or bad timing with stuff)
Here's what I try to focus on (usually just try to focus on doing 1 thing per match):
*Constantly ask myself, "Can I land a JC/Dash canceled grab right now?"
*Should I WD back now?
*Spend the entire match watching my opponent instead of myself
*Each stock, try adopting a different playstyle (campy, aggressive, or probably the best one - constantly in their face without overextending)
*Try to stay totally grounded unless you hit the opponent
*Focus on the physical button presses - think solely about the buttons you will push and the order you will push them in (good to help with sloppy presses or bad timing with stuff)
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
Generally, I'm trying to think where they're going to be, and how I can either catch them there, or push them back away from there. I like to play Shiek in a very responsive way, and usually only play aggressive players, so I can expect them to be coming at me. I also like to think what they want, and how I can stop it from happening (like if I'm at U-throw U-air % from fox, they probably want to hit my shield to set up for a grab, or just go for a grab, so I'll try to make them think they can grab me and punish.)
My Shiek sucks though.
My Shiek sucks though.
Elementary rundown of Sheik in neutral (Well my thought process anyway) -
Close gap between yourself and opponent stay about a ftilt length away maybe a little more but sort of depends on the match up.
Use her really good defensive options to trap opponents trying to run away usually via jumping above you, or counter opponents rushing at you.
If they're intent with shielding use SH fairs and spaced ftilts to force them out of shielding so much. Grabs work too, people expect it though so you might want to try to limit it if they spam sidesteps.
Most people don't abuse her dash dance because her dash dance is so short and somewhat clunky. Her fox trot is more useful if you want to do a kind of dash dance.
Sheik can play pretty aggressively once the gap is closed, try different stuff see whats more fun for you.
Greenpoe -
All I think about when playing matches is, what is my opponent doing and what can I exploit. In between stocks I think about how I'm being taking advantage of.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I mostly just think about how I want to position myself so I can threaten my foe or protect myself with the best move. This means a lot of attention to what threats the foe is positioned to be able to use and how I set up a movement action that gives me access to all the stuff I need to beat those.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
So where does FH or SH Nair come into that equation?
When is this situationally correct?
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Basically the whole point of using high duration movements like SH is to enable you to scout for openings (actual commitments, or anything that crosses a certain proximity threshold) rather than attacking where the foe is or will be. So for this reason it's best to not tunnel vision on a certain aerial or attack available to the lead in you've used.
In general, FJ nair is done to cut off an opponent intending to move at a higher altitude to avoid being cornered (can protect platforms hubs, intercept someone FJing around Sheik to regain stage, etc). You can also use it like a ghetto version of Fox's FJ nair vs slower or lower range opponents but it's risky and unreliable vs savvy opponents.
SH nair is just amazing in general. The speed is so good. In the context of a reaction window, you might SH near a shield and observe they have opted to hold shield. Since nair is better than fair in terms of FA and applies more pressure, you may then opt to nair. It's also decent if you see someone whiff something under you as you're SHing. A lot of times a low nair combos into stuff better than fair or another aerial does. But yeah I can't really like get much more detailed than that because there's a lot of implementations and I'm doing you a disservice by dissecting it - just watch as you play a match and you'll be amazed at all the things you notice.
In general, FJ nair is done to cut off an opponent intending to move at a higher altitude to avoid being cornered (can protect platforms hubs, intercept someone FJing around Sheik to regain stage, etc). You can also use it like a ghetto version of Fox's FJ nair vs slower or lower range opponents but it's risky and unreliable vs savvy opponents.
SH nair is just amazing in general. The speed is so good. In the context of a reaction window, you might SH near a shield and observe they have opted to hold shield. Since nair is better than fair in terms of FA and applies more pressure, you may then opt to nair. It's also decent if you see someone whiff something under you as you're SHing. A lot of times a low nair combos into stuff better than fair or another aerial does. But yeah I can't really like get much more detailed than that because there's a lot of implementations and I'm doing you a disservice by dissecting it - just watch as you play a match and you'll be amazed at all the things you notice.
For more food for thought on the nair discussion, look at this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVLdAK2p2c8
As you can see, KirbyKaze attempts to SH nair and FH nair from a neutral position, but it gets shielded repeatedly (between 1:10 and 2:00 particularly, he spams nairs and they get shielded), but it does force Falco on the defensive. He can also uses it to punish Falco's SH approach at :30 or when moving between platforms at :40. I don't think it's the best option from a neutral position (JC grab or boost/dash attack canceled grab is probably Shiek's only truly legit approach), but it's definitely a solid option if you space it well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVLdAK2p2c8
As you can see, KirbyKaze attempts to SH nair and FH nair from a neutral position, but it gets shielded repeatedly (between 1:10 and 2:00 particularly, he spams nairs and they get shielded), but it does force Falco on the defensive. He can also uses it to punish Falco's SH approach at :30 or when moving between platforms at :40. I don't think it's the best option from a neutral position (JC grab or boost/dash attack canceled grab is probably Shiek's only truly legit approach), but it's definitely a solid option if you space it well.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
Thank you both for the reply.
Last question on this topic. Are you referring to the lowest possible AC nair or L canceled nair?
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Nair input low to the ground and l-canceled. AC nair doesn't really give much FA if any.
darkatma
Smash Hero
Frame advantage.
Use uptilt when they are above you and coming down, either to trade, or in the middle of the combo. Also a good mixup on shields because IASA is possible so soon after the 2nd hitbox.
Use uptilt when they are above you and coming down, either to trade, or in the middle of the combo. Also a good mixup on shields because IASA is possible so soon after the 2nd hitbox.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Yeah 0_o u-tilt is deceptively good on shield, especially from behind.
Random question: Does crouching against Falcon make it significantly more difficult for him to hit you with aerials? I feel like nair could possibly go over a crouching Sheik.
Random question: Does crouching against Falcon make it significantly more difficult for him to hit you with aerials? I feel like nair could possibly go over a crouching Sheik.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Using u-tilt to pressure shielding opponents isn't that effective vs people that know how to play vs Sheik in detail because if they understand the attack itself then they can safely and easily roll between the hits and because the 2nd hit isn't optional Sheik is basically committed too long to do anything about it directly. It's also shield grabbable between the two hits and shine OOS food. However, I think there are maybe 12-14 people that actually know how to fight Sheik in any serious detail like that and a good chunk of them are from Europe.
FA is frame advantage. It means that if you use broader rimmed glasses you will look more sexually appealing and have an advantage in passing on your genes. It sometimes refers to how much time you have in relation to your opponent after performing an actions that incurs an amount of stun on their shield (or them, in some instances).
Nair is better than forward tilt out of your shield because you can't f-tilt OOS but you can jump.
U-tilt's best uses are under FOD, YS, or PS platforms for the combos and annoying factor. Or after hitting them at a trajectory and following with a movement (often optional) that leaves the opponent directly above you... it's pretty good there too. In fact if the opponent is above you, I'd say that u-tilt is probably pretty swell in general. Though it competes with SH fair, bair, uair, the tip of f-tilt, and various other attacks that are more generally applicable. That said, its second hit has almost no lag so to speak if you interrupt it expediently so it's low commitment too. So using it to cover or police certain FJ jump ins and then immediately transitioning into an appropriate response to how the opponent reacted to your u-tilt can be a decent way to create interesting and even favourable combat situations.
FA is frame advantage. It means that if you use broader rimmed glasses you will look more sexually appealing and have an advantage in passing on your genes. It sometimes refers to how much time you have in relation to your opponent after performing an actions that incurs an amount of stun on their shield (or them, in some instances).
Nair is better than forward tilt out of your shield because you can't f-tilt OOS but you can jump.
U-tilt's best uses are under FOD, YS, or PS platforms for the combos and annoying factor. Or after hitting them at a trajectory and following with a movement (often optional) that leaves the opponent directly above you... it's pretty good there too. In fact if the opponent is above you, I'd say that u-tilt is probably pretty swell in general. Though it competes with SH fair, bair, uair, the tip of f-tilt, and various other attacks that are more generally applicable. That said, its second hit has almost no lag so to speak if you interrupt it expediently so it's low commitment too. So using it to cover or police certain FJ jump ins and then immediately transitioning into an appropriate response to how the opponent reacted to your u-tilt can be a decent way to create interesting and even favourable combat situations.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
David you are my favorite person in this world.
(Also coincidentally I have been looking at getting new glasses with broader rims LOLLL)
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
I wish I was as cleverly well spoken as KK.
Are you rooming with Abhi/Abu btw for impulse?
Are you rooming with Abhi/Abu btw for impulse?
t3h Icy
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2009
- Messages
- 4,917
Against Jigglypuff on a missed Rest, is it possible to use fully charges Needles -> Needle cancel -> grab, or is the timing too tight or even possible at all? Also, can Needles be SDI'd? I don't see why not, which would make it harder to grab.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
It's doable but very strict input, subject to possible bamboozlement by our friend SDI, and you're using a whole needle set (which is a very big threat to Puff 'cuz of all the stuff you can set up with it and 18% is a lot of damage) to add 6% to a rest punish that does about 21-23% otherwise
I'm not going to say it's a horrible play and you're wasting a really valuable tool vs Puff for basically blank damage but... well... I suddenly can't finish this sentence.
edit:
Yeah I'm housing Abu, Kzhu, and Kinglit among others. Should be a fun pre-tourney smashfest.
I'm not going to say it's a horrible play and you're wasting a really valuable tool vs Puff for basically blank damage but... well... I suddenly can't finish this sentence.
edit:
Yeah I'm housing Abu, Kzhu, and Kinglit among others. Should be a fun pre-tourney smashfest.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
<- Others!
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
I heard that crouching against Falcon is good if the Falcon Nairs often, because you can beat/trade with dtilt easily? Crouching shouldn't help against stomps at all, but seems good against N-air/U-air. . .
~Twitch~
Smash Master
kk you're a good guy
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
You can also crouch grab nairs and then do your favourite combo. It is also possible to crouch into f-tilt after the second hit and then do an enormous **** combo. Falcon's nair is really easy to beat, just understand that the first hit swings high and the following kick goes high to low. It also effectively commits him until he lands, so once he does it your focus should be to out-time it if that option is available (f-tilt, fair, and bair are good for this provided you are already positioned well for whichever of those you plan to use) or how you can encroach upon his landing area and exert pressure without risk.
So let's get down to brass tacks. Falcon is different than a lot of matchups. You can't really defend against him like you do vs Fox or Mario by simply playing footsie with your legs / fair and various movement techniques to flirt between close spacing / far spacing (see Cactuar's spacing theory circa 2007 in the Sheik Q&A OP). This is because Falcon's dash dance is enormous and he retains enough aerial momentum when he dash jumps to go anywhere from the edge of FD to center-stage and a whole bunch of places in between. This means that moving in and out of his reach a rather counterproductive endeavor because for a long range, your WD back is basically irrelevant because you're still in range of being hit by his dash SH aerial. Furthermore, his limbs are big and trading is often good for him.
Fortunately, Sheik still ***** him. Because here's the other side to that equation. Falcon has no real ground attacks that he can use to control space effectively (compare this to basically all the good characters). This means aside from dash dance into grab he basically has no ground control. Coupled with how his dash dance and great jump physics are basically his only real ways to lead into anything, Falcon winds up being really weak defensively. Think about it... his aerials are slower than yours, his grab is short so he has to get real close to land it, and his options out of shield are not particularly good aside from simply how dangerous being hit by a big move is. You're effectively fighting a character who needs space or time to get his attacks active, kind of like a reverse Luigi (Luigi has fast attacks with great properties but his WD lead in has a long startup; Falcon's lead in is really flexible but his attacks have long startup, long durations, or situationally inconvenient hitboxes). And in the same way that Luigi folds hardest to a structured offense, Falcon does too.
The rest will come later.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I beat him in WB at APEX 2012. Match count was 2-1, with me winning on FD and Battlefield while he won on Dreamland 64.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
If any Sheik could do it, it would be KK.
Anyway, thanks for the tips on fighting Falcon. I generally find that you can react easily to his approaches from long range. I feel that crouch cancelling Falcon's nair is pretty important, since you can react to most of his other aerials fine. I think my Falcon problems stem more from my bad tech chasing than from my play in neutral.
Anyway, thanks for the tips on fighting Falcon. I generally find that you can react easily to his approaches from long range. I feel that crouch cancelling Falcon's nair is pretty important, since you can react to most of his other aerials fine. I think my Falcon problems stem more from my bad tech chasing than from my play in neutral.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
If you are having issues with punishment, would I be prying if I asked you to elaborate a bit more? Ideally I'd like to know your positioning going into the follow after the d-throw or other knockdown hit. I'm always curious as to how people lead into their stuff.
Purpletuce
Smash Lord
I've looked for that set before, to no avail. . . is it on twitch somewhere or something?
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
Yeah Abu is my buddy, glad he did well at impulse (9th). I was gonna go with him but I had family obligations
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
*gets housed by kirbykaze and talks smash theory at 4 AM*
*leaves Canada, proceeds to go online to read more kirbykaze posts*
*leaves Canada, proceeds to go online to read more kirbykaze posts*
john!
Smash Hero
i once attended a class where we spent a whole semester analyzing and discussing KK's posts
Thanks! I'm going to study that set
darkatma
Smash Hero
KK I need to discuss double jab resets with you. It seems that the 2nd jab is slightly weaker than the 1st jab, allowing you to jab reset the opponent in percents higher than you would be able to with a single jab. This may potentially allow for a dash attack or upsmash setup upon getup, since I calculated 28% before unstaled dthrow/double jab to be the highest percent they can't escape from the grab from, which puts them well into the 30s after the double jab. I was just thinking there should be a guaranteed follow up if sheik maximized that percent and then tried to start her death combos off of it.
Let me know your thoughts.
Edit: "They" being Fox and Falco.
Also, I realized I don't have a good understanding of sheik's dash attack when I tried to explain it to a friend. It's actually a move that is as easily reversible as falcon's knee, but much less controllable (at least, for me).
I exploded Sheik's dash attack animation here. The relevant hitbox frames are from 6-12, and frame 12 is the clearest image of the two hitboxes. Do the two hitboxes have different properties? I know that in a normal dash attack, DIing behind sheik can send you far enough away to avoid being comboed. When it is reversed, DIing in front of sheik sends far enough away to avoid a combo. So yeah I wanted to know which hitbox is which (if they are different), and if there's a way to control which hitbox will hit if you know the opponent's DI.
Let me know your thoughts.
Edit: "They" being Fox and Falco.
Also, I realized I don't have a good understanding of sheik's dash attack when I tried to explain it to a friend. It's actually a move that is as easily reversible as falcon's knee, but much less controllable (at least, for me).
I exploded Sheik's dash attack animation here. The relevant hitbox frames are from 6-12, and frame 12 is the clearest image of the two hitboxes. Do the two hitboxes have different properties? I know that in a normal dash attack, DIing behind sheik can send you far enough away to avoid being comboed. When it is reversed, DIing in front of sheik sends far enough away to avoid a combo. So yeah I wanted to know which hitbox is which (if they are different), and if there's a way to control which hitbox will hit if you know the opponent's DI.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,545
The two hitboxes are exactly the same in properties. Something to note however is that the "sweetspot" (which is just a timing thing and not a spacing thing) is only active on frame 6. Frames 7-12 is the "sourspot" which sends forward and is really weak (even more CCable than the sweetspot).
The reversing is just caused by the fact that most hitboxes are reversible. I don't fully understand the science behind what determines whether you hit forward or reverse, but I have a couple theories. One of the main ones is that it has to do with the orientation of the point of the hitbox that lands in reference to some arbitrary point on the attacking character's mode;, the bone the hitbox is attached to, for instance, or a single point that applies to all reversal and only changes based on animation. The other which is IMO more likely is the victim's orientation in reference to a fixed point (which changes with animation) on the attacking character's model. This would be why knee and other moves to reverse more often when the opponent seems to be mostly "behind" the attacker. This is still theory though, I don't have any proof.
The reversing is just caused by the fact that most hitboxes are reversible. I don't fully understand the science behind what determines whether you hit forward or reverse, but I have a couple theories. One of the main ones is that it has to do with the orientation of the point of the hitbox that lands in reference to some arbitrary point on the attacking character's mode;, the bone the hitbox is attached to, for instance, or a single point that applies to all reversal and only changes based on animation. The other which is IMO more likely is the victim's orientation in reference to a fixed point (which changes with animation) on the attacking character's model. This would be why knee and other moves to reverse more often when the opponent seems to be mostly "behind" the attacker. This is still theory though, I don't have any proof.