Sheik Tidbit: Beating Counter with Grenade

[Simikins]

Beating Counter with Grenade
Often when an opponent counters, you have to wait until it ends to get a small punish. With this trick, you can get early kills, and you don’t even have to wait.

How this works, and who it works on:
To understand this you need to know a little bit about the two moves involved in this. Counter, and Sheik’s burst grenade.
Measurements were done on the sonic 3DS stage Green Hill Zone (Image of it here), using the squares.

Counter info (Who has a counter, etc.)

Spoiler: Counter Info (Read)

Every counter is different. The amount of time they last, how far the attack reaches, and strength of each attack varies between every counter. For more information on every different counter see http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4.
Every character that has a counter, and the distances each reaches are listed below.

Characters with counters are:
Shulk - Travels 11 squares on hit
Greninja - Travels 17 squares (in chosen direction) on hit
Lucario - Travels 17 squares (in chosen direction) on hit
Little Mac - Travels 6 squares on hit
Marth - Attack reaches 4 squares on hit
Ike - Attack reaches 4 1/2 squares on hit
Lucina - Attack reaches 3 squares on hit
Roy - Attack reaches 5 squares on hit
Peach - Attack reaches 5 squares on hit
Palutena - Attack reaches 5 squares on hit

Some characters move a set distance when their counter is activated by a hit. Those characters are:

Shulk - Travels 11 squares on hit
Greninja - Travels 17 squares (in chosen direction) on hit
Lucario - Travels 17 squares (in chosen direction) on hit
Little Mac - Travels 6 squares on hit

Counters, when activated by a hit, experience a significant amount of lag. The lag varies between characters. The lag is also higher (for certain characters) if the counterattack actually hits someone.

Burst Grenade Info

Spoiler: Burst Grenade Info (Read)

Sheik’s Burst Grenade has 3 separate damaging stages.
The first is the physical grenade shell, when you throw the grenade. This is a single hit active from frame 15 that deals 1% damage.
The grenade shell travels 9 squares in front of sheik.
The second is the suction. There are two suction ‘hits’ each dealing 1% damage. They are active from frame 28 - 48 after the input.
The suction can suck in opponents to the explosion from 5 squares.
The third is the explosion, which deals 12% damage and activates on frame 49.

If the grenade shell is hit before the detonation (which starts on frame 28) then it will explode instantly and deal more knockback and more damage (14%). It is possible to hold special and delay the detonation. This tech is called Sponge Nade (Discovered by @saviorslegacy and well named by @Absol ).

Now for the actual tech

If you throw the grenade at a counter the first hit will activate it, but you will be safe as the 9 squares of the thrown grenade outranges all counters that stay in place when activated, leaving them to get hit by the grenade explosion. Because of how different every counter is...

There are two methods of execution for this tech:

Method 1: - Throw the grenade at a counter and activate the grenade as normal.
This method has more combo follow ups, so on the two characters that this works on it is better to do method 1 over method 2. See this thread for some good grenade combos.

Works on:

Peach
Palutena
Those two characters experience enough lag after their counterattack that they cannot act before the explosion.

Method 2: - Throw the grenade at a counter, but continue to hold special so the the grenade doesn’t activate, and let the hit of counter hit the grenade shell.
Doing this will activate the fast explosion, which deals more damage and knockback, and works on more characters.

The only combo out of this is Bouncing Fish.
Works on:

Peach - Note: Only works if she doesn't hit you as her hurtbox goes too low to be hit if she does.
Palutena
Marth
Ike
Lucina
Roy
Little Mac
Those characters experience enough lag after their counterattack that they cannot act before the explosion.

DLC characters with counters that will be tested on release:
Corrin - Based on how his counter looks like it works, I think that this will work.
Bayonetta - Based on how it looks like her counter works, I highly doubt this will work.


This is overall a good thing to keep in mind when playing against characters with counters, as if you predict a counter, or they do an obvious one, it can lead to an early kill, which helps Sheik tremendously.

All of this was tested by Simikins (Myself) & @Wasserwipf , who also made the GIFs.

Hope this helps all you ninjas in some way, if you get this in a game please link a video or GIF and I’ll put it, along with your name, in this little box!

The box
Simikins (Me) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWsHc_baG3A&feature=youtu.be

- Simikins

 

[Simikins]

This reply is reserved for later use.

 

[_Tree]

Did not expect this. Good information for covering every base in terms of each situation. Nice job you two.

 

[exnecross]

Seems like a good alternative to grabbing at higher percents

If grenade > BF is a true combo off counter, then that should be really interesting. Have you tried running upsmash?

 

[ArikadoSD]

You can also get a guaranteed grab after the grenade explosion too just saying

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

After a Burst Grenade, I personally like to run up and use an aerial, like Forward Air or Back Air.

Then again, I am preeeettttty stupid.

 

[exnecross]

As for the second method - I was curious and did some testing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems to be the case after trying to replicate your second method:

The grenade only activates the counter if you threw the grenade before the counter was even input (as shown in your gif). If you try to punish a counter with a grenade, even with inhuman reaction time it seems to not work. Again, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Simikins]

Seems like a good alternative to grabbing at higher percents

If grenade > BF is a true combo off counter, then that should be really interesting. Have you tried running upsmash?

I have done extensive testing with grenade combos for my shield break thread, and with method 1 there are MANY MANY possible combos. Running Upsmash is the best imo. Method 2 only BF works.

You can also get a guaranteed grab after the grenade explosion too just saying

With method 1, yes. Don't worry, I know all the grenade followups possible, but with method 2 only bf works. With method 2 you use the fast grenade explosion, which doesn't give sheik time for any other followups.

After a Burst Grenade, I personally like to run up and use an aerial, like Forward Air or Back Air.

Then again, I am preeeettttty stupid.

Again, with method 1 that works absolutely fine. Method 2, doesn't.

As for the second method - I was curious and did some testing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems to be the case after trying to replicate your second method:

The grenade only activates the counter if you threw the grenade before the counter was even input (as shown in your gif). If you try to punish a counter with a grenade, even with inhuman reaction time it seems to not work. Again, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Thank you for doing testing of your own! We can't do everything lol.
Every character has a different length counter. You've used lucina, so here's info for her.
Her counter is active on frames 5-27. Sheiks grenade first hitbox starts on frame 15. If you are very close to them then in theory you should be able to react, with godlike reaction time (We play sheik so that's a given ). Obviously you want to space it so that you are not hit by the counter, and the further away you are, the later the grenade shell will hit them.
Palutenas counter counters on frames 9-31
Little macs counters on frames 4-26,
Everyone is different.
The best way to get this is with reads, predicting when the opponent will counter. If they often counter when you space fairs, hiff a grenade at them see how it goes.
Yeah reacting is hard. Reads are best.


I would like to point out to everyone, that I have 2 different methods listed.
The first uses the burst grenade like normal, and so sheik has millions of possible followups (trust me, I spent a lot of time testing them for this thread).
The second method uses the 'sponge nade.' When the grenade shell is hit before sheik detonates it herself, it will explode much faster than usual, giving sheik less frame advantage. Because of this, only bf is possible.

Check out Kuroganehammer for frame data for every different character's counter.

 

[HoSmash4]

Can you perform this by pure reaction to a whiffed counter?

 

[Simikins]

HoSmash4

Every character has a different length counter. You've used lucina, so here's info for her.
Her counter is active on frames 5-27. Sheiks grenade first hitbox starts on frame 15. If you are very close to them then in theory you should be able to react, with godlike reaction time (We play sheik so that's a given ). Obviously you want to space it so that you are not hit by the counter, and the further away you are, the later the grenade shell will hit them.
Palutenas counter counters on frames 9-31
Little macs counters on frames 4-26,
Everyone is different.
The best way to get this is with reads, predicting when the opponent will counter. If they often counter when you space fairs, hiff a grenade at them see how it goes.
Yeah reacting is hard. Reads are best.

In theory yes, with godlike reaction time.
So far in practice, no. Have to get a read.

 

[HoSmash4]

HoSmash4

In theory yes, with godlike reaction time.
So far in practice, no. Have to get a read.

Ah thats a shame. Counters are rare especially agianst sheik where the risk:reward of getting a counter for the opponent isnt worth it vs sheik. Cool tidbit definitely though

 

[exnecross]

Ah thats a shame. Counters are rare especially agianst sheik where the risk:reward of getting a counter for the opponent isnt worth it vs sheik. Cool tidbit definitely though

Unfortunately, I have to agree with this. No skilled opponent would counter predictably. You'd see it maybe once in a set, and you won't be able to bait it. On top of this, throwing out a grenade is asking for a hard punish.