Sheikah Survival Guide: A Sheik Match-up Thread

[SuSa]

rollout is SO~ underrated. if you knock someone down and start roll out, they are dead. You don't have to go any where near fully charged for the move to become a powerful horizontal kill. In fact... it always has that same kill potential.

drill rest is not reliable because of smash DI, fortunately you can read the DI and vissually check if it possible before executing the rest. Another strong option out of drill is dash attack which is a true combo and has really good kill potential and will at the very least set up for a low angled edge guard. plus you always have the grab/smash attack/ jab rock paper sissors game. in the match up even if you do fail you won't be punished too hard.

^
Yeah...

Um... jiggs is much more mobile in the air than sheik and can use that to pick and choose when to attacks and amazing grab game really helps out Mr. Jiggles in this match up to, it helps rack damage and get sheik up in the air a bad spot for sheik.

It's not all bad for sheik though. needles are really good on whiffed aerials, you can keep up pressure with bair pretty well. You really have to be on top of your game and make good choices since you can't ftilt to keep up pressure. combo's are difficult, rest is always in the back of your mind as an inturupt to any of your follow ups, and even on whiff you can't punish them well...

I think versus Zelda is in Jiggy's favor. but she does have an easier time landing successful kills and she can punish rest with kill moves instead of a 10% -18% slap on the wrist.

Too bad that dair > rest must trip otherwise you can powershield the rest. This is what makes it unreliable.

The more you know!

 

[<π]

nah, you don't have to trip. that is false. drill ends before jiggs hit the ground you are actually resting in the air before you get the landing lag of dair. The thing that makes it not 100% is that smash DI. drill trip is a free fsmash or rollout!

 

[SuSa]

Dair frame data:
Hits on Frame: 5-6,8-9,11-12, 14-15, 17-18, 20-21, 23-24, 26-27
Duration (All 8 hit): 73
Hitlag: 4

Rest hits on frame 2. Each hit comes 3 frames after. If you add the 4 frames of hitlag (and assuming this 4 frames applies to all 8 hits), this makes 7.

5, 12, 19, 26, 33, 40, 47, 54

If it lasts 73 frames, that is 19 frames that you'd have to be in hitstun for. 1 extra frame, then the rest hitbox.

That makes 20 frames.

It takes 2 frames to powershield.

 

[Zankoku]

20 frames of hitstun doesn't sound implausible given my experience in getting hit by that attack.

 

[<π]

Just go and physically test it Susa. Make sure you aren't fast falling into the ground while resting I used to mess up and get shielded because of that.

EDIT:
hit stun may also be percent Dependant? I know after a certain point drill starts to hit people off the ground. maybe drill rest isn't viable at 0%

 

[stealth3654]

Watch out for Jigg's down smash. You shouldn't get hit by it too often, but if you do it will send you diagonally downwards while sliding you off the stage. Then, if Jiggs is there to edge guard you, you will have a very tough time trying to recover.

I say cp FD and ban Rainbow Cruise.

 

[choknater]

i have no qualms with playing sheik on rainbow. she is fast and can get low % kills

this matchup seems hard to strategize in but i honestly don't see myself having any problems with just regular spacing and then using zelda for ko's (on neutrals)

60-40 sheik/zelda in my opinion

though i dont have the experience to base that off of lol (im sure not a lot of ppl do)

 

[<π]

downsmash is a horrible move... really bad range and really long start up. as sheik you don't have a need to be that close to jiggs ever.

I can't really give a ratio. I'd say evenish but in my head either way. I go jiggs against sheiks... all one of them.

 

[SuSa]

I've never lost to a Sheik (no Zelda) as Jigglypuff. (This includes my 1 friendly vs Champ.)

Alternatively, I've lost to every single Zelda except for 1 (because he sucked).

Discuss.

My ratios (based on theorycraft more then personal experiences)

60:40 Jiggs:Sheik
60:40 Zelda:Jiggs

50:50 Sheik+Zelda:Jiggs

 

[<π]

between virg and Ed I haven't had too much issue with the zelda match up, she is just too slow, and like with everyone if you aren't jumping into zelda's presure game you are good. you can punish fsmash with jiggy, if you are spacing correctly usmash should be a problem.

It is far easier to connect with those kill moves with zelda than it is with sheik, but that doesn't mean it is easy by any stretch.

 

[choknater]

hmmmmm

zelda :D <3

but this is the sheik boards so hmmm....

so susa what makes puff so good against sheiK? IMO if i fought puff i would treat it like wario. i would TRY to approach, but moreso just to stay close and then try to abuse range. cuz wario doesnt have a lot of aerial range, but great movement. therefore i just try to create a circle of priority around me by jumping a lot and using bairs/uairs or perhaps fairs/nairs if i am close enough. by just creating a wall of attacks it at leasts makes wario second guess about approaching in order to not be hit by bair

this is probably not as viable against puff, but at least the number of encounters will be reduced because puff dies much more easily. hmmm

ahahaha maybe i should play one of u puff players on wifi one of these days

 

[<π]

Um... jiggy has aerial range and aerial priority (pound and fair is sudo disjointed I believe like our bair is). multiple jumps + low fall speed make that match up a lot different than versus wario. Jiggy is less constrained than wario. Jiggy with good DI shouldn't be dying to sheik till like... 150ish?

 

[choknater]

but zelda :O

yeah i've had my experiences with my own jiggly that with good DI and avoiding of KO moves, i can even live against snake to 150

still, i'm just saying i would treat it the same as wario

and even though she has priority, it's not like the attacks last forever. just ilke with marth and peach, even though sheik has less priority, u have to find the right time BETWEEN the opponents attacks to attack

and jigglypuff has a lot of those times

with good spacing there wont be a lot of open spots

but sheik can space too, esp. by staying on the ground (staying on the ground gives wario a hard time approaching actually cuz of grab release dacus and sheik's way better ground game overall)

 

[SuSa]

Basically what <3 said.

Also Jigglypuff can WoP Sheik easier, as well as gimp you with sourspotted nairs/fairs. She can perfect rest you out of basically every single non-special move, and if the Jigglypuff is spacing and retreating properly. Good luck punishing her for anything really. <_<

You have to wait for the Jigglypuff to mess up to actually be able to do anything considerable.

 

[choknater]

grrrr i could just say things like sheik can run in and full hop nair and what are u gonna do lol

or even dacus

sheik has faster approaches and aerials than any other character, and even reaction times cant save you from some of her stuff

ehh i'm just trying to defend her. even if she does have a slight disadvantage, i dont wanna let this become one sided.

Thinkaman im'd me and told me sheik's crawl would be very effective in this matchup, just like i said how staying on the ground at leasts forces jigglypuff to come close to the ground where sheik is in a pretty good position. jigglypuff can pretty much only hit crawling sheik with drill, so i find that a good strategy. sheik can tilt or dacus out of crawl or jump or do whatever. the only probably is that sheik isnt running when shes crawling

 

[<π]

full hop nair verus jiggy? out of sheild she could like fair you or uair you. she moves so fast in the air that manuver isn't as hard to punish as it is with characters like snake.

crawling approaches are easily messed up by dair. dair is on of my favorite moves to pressure people. it's really save on sheild. I've broken a sheild with dair alone, lol. Dair ->pound on sheild is too too good.

you can also SH bair's to hit a crouching sheik I believe.

 

[tgrove69]

I'd use Zelda against Jigglypuff rather than Sheik. Just watch out for dair combos, especially rest. Oh and rollout, which can be devastating

 

[stealth3654]

Jiggl's pound hit box lasts a long time, so don't run into it. XD

 

[choknater]

so what do u guys think the ratio is lol

just opinions right now it seems

its hard to get something concrete on this matchup, mostly theorybros besdies what <3 was saying which seemed pretty knowledged

 

[-Mars-]

I would put it at like a 45-55 Jigglypuff advantage. I mean I know the chain hasn't ever really been tested out against Jiggz but I could see it giving Jiggz a ton of trouble.

Seeing as how most SHeik players don't even bother to utilize the chain......that's what I think the matchup ratio is.

Once people start seeing how good the chain is it's going to turn a lot of matchups like Luigi and Jiggz into favorable ones for Sheik imo.

InB4Choksayzchainsuxlololol.

 

[choknater]

chain sucks :D

lol jk man

i am kinda seeing how it could be useful

i just never use it

i just think that gimmicky stuff like chain lock and chain jacket are really useless

 

[gm jack]

chain sucks :D

lol jk man

i am kinda seeing how it could be useful

i just never use it

i just think that gimmicky stuff like chain lock and chain jacket are really useless

I use chain lock as a punisher and nothing more. A predicted air dodge etc and they eat 40% in a second.

 

[Tristan_win]

I would put it at like a 45-55 Jigglypuff advantage. I mean I know the chain hasn't ever really been tested out against Jiggz but I could see it giving Jiggz a ton of trouble.

Seeing as how most SHeik players don't even bother to utilize the chain......that's what I think the matchup ratio is.

Once people start seeing how good the chain is it's going to turn a lot of matchups like Luigi and Jiggz into favorable ones for Sheik imo.

InB4Choksayzchainsuxlololol.

Well...to tell you the truth I think it's fairly hard to use the chain against Jiggz when compared to other characters such like Ganondorf or even meta knight. The reason why I think this is because Jiggz pound attack is really hard to stop because of it's range and the odd way it moves her. The chain does hurt jiggy as she no longer has any approaches but as of yet I've yet o successfully camp a Jiggly because of that pound of hers and her aerial speed.

Most likely the cause is just lack of experience fighting Jiggz on my part not to mention all of my experience fighting them are from wifi which with the chain makes it more of a predicting weapon then reaction.

 

[choknater]

*shrug* for some reason i've just never had problems rushing a jiggs lol

i mean she can space but so can i. everything sheik has comes out faster

 

[stealth3654]

So are we agreed that the match-up ratio is 55/45 Jiggs?

 

[choknater]

haha not me but u guys can put that up anyway since i know some of u agree

 

[stealth3654]

Okay then, lets move on to Ness.

Discuss!

 

[choknater]

grab release ftilt him, sooo useful

i think u can also air release dacus him, hard to do though just like with mk

ummm his spacing game uses fair, but sheik is ground game based so she wont have to worry about THAT much. just watch out for autocancel dairs, those are pretty dangerous like if you jump into it, he can jab lock those into grab, or even pk fire, or even pk fire to grab

ness is all about his air spacing, and his amazing dash grab, so u need to use ur ground game verrry well and sheik should win. his dash grab is better than ours, but we should still try to grab him a lot, or pressure him with autocancel fairs to stuff. double jab to grab, grab release combo. remember that u can combo off both ground release and air release combo him

can someone confirm air release dacus on ness? i believe i saw it in innocentroads videos

 

[stealth3654]

grab release ftilt him, sooo useful

i think u can also air release dacus him, hard to do though just like with mk

ummm his spacing game uses fair, but sheik is ground game based so she wont have to worry about THAT much. just watch out for autocancel dairs, those are pretty dangerous like if you jump into it, he can jab lock those into grab, or even pk fire, or even pk fire to grab

ness is all about his air spacing, and his amazing dash grab, so u need to use ur ground game verrry well and sheik should win. his dash grab is better than ours, but we should still try to grab him a lot, or pressure him with autocancel fairs to stuff. double jab to grab, grab release combo. remember that u can combo off both ground release and air release combo him

can someone confirm air release dacus on ness? i believe i saw it in innocentroads videos

Wait, so you can ftilt > regrab on both ground and air release?

I think you are thinking about the Lucas grab release > DACUS. I'm pretty sure it doesn't works on Ness.

 

[Snakeee]

grab release ftilt him, sooo useful

i think u can also air release dacus him, hard to do though just like with mk

ummm his spacing game uses fair, but sheik is ground game based so she wont have to worry about THAT much. just watch out for autocancel dairs, those are pretty dangerous like if you jump into it, he can jab lock those into grab, or even pk fire, or even pk fire to grab

ness is all about his air spacing, and his amazing dash grab, so u need to use ur ground game verrry well and sheik should win. his dash grab is better than ours, but we should still try to grab him a lot, or pressure him with autocancel fairs to stuff. double jab to grab, grab release combo. remember that u can combo off both ground release and air release combo him

can someone confirm air release dacus on ness? i believe i saw it in innocentroads videos

Yeah, I grab release - f-tilt him plenty it's so nice.

And, you really must master the grab release in general It's key to using Sheik at a high level.

Use kind of a lot of needles, and make good use of our speed advantages. His grab is good, but I'm pretty sure our's is still better. Jabs actually work well against him too.

Anyway, I believe this to be a pretty solid advantage for Sheik, 6/4 or better

 

[ddonaldo]

its also quite easy to get ness in a difficult position off-stage making for easy gimping and unlike lucas he cant zap jump/magnet pull

 

[kingcobra9]

does chain stop upb

 

[ddonaldo]

does chain stop upb

PK thunder, nope it goes right through.
PK thunder 2, yes

but chain wont prevent PKT2 recovery since it will just refresh his jumps again and due to start-up lag, isnt the best response to PKT2

 

[saviorslegacy]

Ness is easy IMO.
Just grab release him and regrab a lot.
I believe we can also get another regrab on him if he air release's.
I also believe we have grab release DACUS.

Other than that, pressure with Needle's, use DSmash, f-tilt lock some and space with Bair. I wouldn't suggest Fair though.....

 

[Spelt]

don't get spiked.

 

[kingcobra9]

what's the difference between pk1 and pk2 are you talking about just the bolt vs. bolt charged kid or the difference between lucas and ness

 

[Zankoku]

PKT1 is the bolt, PKT2 is the recovery.

 

[Uffe]

I do believe your f-tilt lock only works on Ness at 20% and I think ends around 50%. And Sheik has a grab release on Ness? I mean, ****! Is Ness turning into Wario or something? Who else has a grab release on him? Anyway, if I do recall correctly, your f-tilt lock can be SDI'd out of, right? You've got your Needle Storm, but it's only really useful on the ground and attempting to gimp us. Our fair I do believe pretty much out-prioritizes most of your attacks. Feel free to correct me at any point as I haven't played this game for about four months now.

Sheik has a good DACUS, but it may be stopped by Ness' Yo-yo and surely PK Fire if timed right. Surprisingly PK Fire has fairly good range. As for your guys' recovery, I can't say it's any better than ours. Does the reappearance of Sheik's Up B harm her enemies or does that only work when she disappears? The reason I ask is because if you're put in a bad spot, you're bound to get edge guarded just as bad as Lucario.

The thing about both our recoveries is that it isn't over until you can get us at least below stage level. And just like Ness', your recovery is just as predictable as Zelda's, which means for us Ness mains, if we really wanted to PKT2 into you when you returned or use PK Flash on you, we could if we predict you correctly. What else? Well I can't really think of anything else at this point. But I can't agree with Snakeee that the match up is that high. If you guys do have the advantage, I'd at least say 55:45, Sheik or a possible even, who knows?

 

[Spelt]

Who else has a grab release on him?

everyone? xD

Sheik has a good DACUS, but it may be stopped by Ness' Yo-yo and surely PK Fire if timed right. Surprisingly PK Fire has fairly good range. As for your guys' recovery, I can't say it's any better than ours. Does the reappearance of Sheik's Up B harm her enemies or does that only work when she disappears? The reason I ask is because if you're put in a bad spot, you're bound to get edge guarded just as bad as Lucario.

her DACUS is pretty unpredictable, it covers at least half of FD.
and if you get grabbed released into it there's no way to escape.

her reappearance on vanish has wind, but does no damage.
we also have a tether to recover with.

 

[Uffe]

everyone? xD




her DACUS is pretty unpredictable, it covers at least half of FD.
and if you get grabbed released into it there's no way to escape.

her reappearance on vanish has wind, but does no damage.
we also have a tether to recover with.

Yeah, the reason I had asked was because I've been finding a few other characters who could grab release him. But does Sheik really have one on Ness? I never knew about this.