Shield Breaking With Jigglypuff

[Rhyfelwyr]

I might have found a plausible way for reliably breaking shields with Jigglypuff.

Jigglypuff's Pound attack drains 50% of an enemy's shield, but unfortunately landing two pounds to shatter a guard doesn't work for a couple of reasons. One, Pound isn't safe on block and you're likely to be grabbed. Secondly, Pound has enough start up delay that even if you land a second one, there's a possibility the opponent will be able to keep a small bit of shield left.

I tested all of Jigglypuff's moves to see how much shield damage they can do. All of them do near 20% damage, except one. A fully blocked D-air will drain about 40% of a shield.

I've devised the following setup for destroying shields.

1. Full Hop D-air -> 2. Fastfall N-air -> 3. Pound

Step 2 can be anything really. Fastfall N-air just happens to be the fastest.

After the D-air and N-air, you can land on either side of the opponent, and they'll only have 40% of their shield remaining. Now if you do pound, your opponent is in a tight spot. If he guards, his shield is broke. If he spotdodges, pound's lasting hitbox may still hit him. If he attacks, pound might out prioritize him. And an aerial pound can reach a roll.

I don't know how effective this may be in a real match. Obviously this isn't some kind of unbeatable combo, and it requires some mindgames.

 

[illinialex24]

I might have found a plausible way for reliably breaking shields with Jigglypuff.

Jigglypuff's Pound attack drains 50% of an enemy's shield, but unfortunately landing two pounds to shatter a guard doesn't work for a couple of reasons. One, Pound isn't safe on block and you're likely to be grabbed. Secondly, Pound has enough start up delay that even if you land a second one, there's a possibility the opponent will be able to keep a small bit of shield left.

I tested all of Jigglypuff's moves to see how much shield damage they can do. All of them do near 20% damage, except one. A fully blocked D-air will drain about 40% of a shield.

I've devised the following setup for destroying shields.

1. Full Hop D-air -> 2. Fastfall N-air -> 3. Pound

Step 2 can be anything really. Fastfall N-air just happens to be the fastest.

After the D-air and N-air, you can land one either side of the opponent, and they'll only have 40% of their shield remaining. Now if you do pound, your opponent is in a tight spot. If he guards, his shield is broke. If he spotdodges, pound's lasting hitbox may still hit him. If he attacks, pound might out prioritize him. And an aerial pound can reach a roll.

I don't know how effective this may be in a real match. Obviously this isn't some kind of unbeatable combo, and it requires some mindgames.

Its a good idea and I might try this out. The best way to beat a shield is bairs, where you don't let yourself get grabbed but you punish their sheild and if the are holding their shield for too long, pound. Its really great and it forces them to come out of their shield, but the issue is no one stays in the shield that long. I'm gonna check this out though.

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

Thanks, let me know what you find.

Usually whenever I did a D-air I would go for a grab afterward, but now knowing how close they are to a broken shield when that happens, I'm wondering if this would be better.

 

[illinialex24]

Thanks, let me know what you find.

Usually whenever I did a D-air I would go for a grab afterward, but now knowing how close they are to a broken shield when that happens, I'm wondering if this would be better.

The issue is if you fail a dair on them, almost everyone rolls away, so I'm not sure how this will turn out.

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

Hmm, you have a point there. But the three moves don't have to be used in quick succession. My observation is that after a D-air, if you can land one more attack against their shield, you'll be put into an advantageous position to use pound. I don't know how much leeway the setup can allow before their shield recovers, but it should still work if you manage to meet their roll with a F/B-air. So step 2 will be the hard part, seeing how you have to predict if they roll left, right, or stay put.

I've got an idea, try using this when they're near the edge or on a platform. Then their are only two places they can be. If you're doing a full hop D-air, there's enough height to follow where ever they go.

 

[illinialex24]

Hmm, you have a point there. But the three moves don't have to be used in quick succession. My observation is that after a D-air, if you can land one more attack against their shield, you'll be put into an advantageous position to use pound. I don't know how much leeway the setup can allow before their shield recovers, but it should still work if you manage to meet their roll with a F/B-air. So step 2 will be the hard part, seeing how you have to predict if they roll left, right, or stay put.

I've got an idea, try using this when they're near the edge or on a platform. Then their are only two places they can be. If you're doing a full hop D-air, there's enough height to follow where ever they go.

This could be useful just to force opponents out of their shield. If you break the shield of an opponent or get close, they start becoming a lot more aggressive generally.

 

[Thinkaman]

Quiz time! What do you do when an opponent's shield is broken?

 

[Heavenly Spoon]

Jab them.

10rests

On a more serious note, charged f-smash/rollout would probably be better, especially below restkill percentages, but rest is just so much more awesome.

Wouldn't stuff like up-B out-of-shield and shieldgrabs own this? I'm too lazy to test ATM.

 

[illinialex24]

Quiz time! What do you do when an opponent's shield is broken?

You hold an F-smash. It kills much faster than rest in Brawl and is safer if you miss.

 

[rinoH]

how could you miss ??????????

 

[Thinkaman]

The correct answer is rollout. It kills soonest, can't miss, and doesn't have the lag time of rest. Some character have tricks where they can tether to die off the top without the background animation, allowing them to come back and punish you as if you killed them off the side. Rollout is also probably the best thing to put in your stale moves list if you want to split hairs. (The "kills soonest" part is the main reason.)

 

[Deidara~Tail~]

Wow, never thought of rollout.

EXCELLENT THINKING, THINKAMAN.

 

[Conclusively]

Wow, never thought of rollout.

EXCELLENT THINKING, THINKAMAN.

i c wut u did thar.

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

Wouldn't stuff like up-B out-of-shield and shieldgrabs own this? I'm too lazy to test ATM.

Most characters' up-B don't work well out of shield, but against the ones who do, such as Marth, don't try this. The reason I recommend a full hop D-air instead of the short hop is because they won't be able to grab you, and you can space yourself for your next move.

 

[Glick]

Thinkaman rollout does more knockback but Fsmash does more damage. If they aren't in killing range I'd Fsmash them, save rollout for when I need it in quick situations when I cant use Rest or Fsmash. Kthx.

 

[illinialex24]

I know both rollout and F-smash but as long as you correctly place F-smash, it kills really well. Although I like rollout, I just prefer F-smash. Rollouts decent though.

 

[Thinkaman]

Right, but I assumed them to be at a KO-able percent. Obviously, if an opponent is at 0% you should do your most damaging attack; that's true for any character.

 

[illinialex24]

Right, but I assumed them to be at a KO-able percent. Obviously, if an opponent is at 0% you should do your most damaging attack; that's true for any character.

Yeah, but I find that F-smash is very KO-able. I killed someone with it uncharged on FD at 73% around a quarter way into the stage. Its all about sweetspotting it.

 

[DKKountry]

Thinkaman rollout does more knockback

How much more knockback does a Thinkaman rollout have than a normal rollout? or even a normal Thinkaman?

 

[illinialex24]

How much more knockback does a Thinkaman rollout have than a normal rollout? or even a normal Thinkaman?

Well there is a fully charged rollout and a supercharged rollout. I'm guessing a Thinkaman rollout is a supercharged one so a lot more.

 

[Tyser]

Doesnt work. I can tell just by reading it.

 

[Glick]

Well there is a fully charged rollout and a supercharged rollout. I'm guessing a Thinkaman rollout is a supercharged one so a lot more.

That reminds me, Have you ever used links boomerang to boost the speed of your rollout. I actually think it does more damage. Its like the only way you'll get a super rollout, but sometimes it will just kill you.

 

[illinialex24]

That reminds me, Have you ever used links boomerang to boost the speed of your rollout. I actually think it does more damage. Its like the only way you'll get a super rollout, but sometimes it will just kill you.

Nevermind, turns out supercharged only affects Jigglypuff's distance from rollout and whether rollout is affected by gravity a lot.

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Rollout

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

Doesnt work. I can tell just by reading it.

Although I wasn't fully expecting it to work, and I respect your opinion, you saying "take my word for it" doesn't help. Why does it not work? Is there a better way to do it? I want to facilitate discussion more then prove my setup. The Ganon and Marth boards have had successful topics about shield breaking, but Jigglypuff with one of the best shield damaging moves, hasn't had one yet.

You don't have to break their shield for this strategy to work. If you can land a D-air and one other move you've succeeded. Your third move doesn't have to be pound. After step 2, the opponent has lost their ability to shield out of fear from being broken. At this point you have a powerful advantage.

 

[illinialex24]

Although I wasn't fully expecting it to work, and I respect your opinion, you saying "take my word for it" doesn't help. Why does it not work? Is there a better way to do it? I want to facilitate discussion more then prove my setup. The Ganon and Marth boards have had successful topics about shield breaking, but Jigglypuff with one of the best shield damaging moves, hasn't had one yet.

You don't have to break their shield for this strategy to work. If you can land a D-air and one other move you've succeeded. Your third move doesn't have to be pound. After step 2, the opponent has lost their ability to shield out of fear from being broken. At this point you have a powerful advantage.

Yeah, don't worry about Tyser... He just gets angry sometimes.

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

I'm not really worried about him. I probably shouldn't have singled him out like I did. I was taking the opportunity to clarify the agenda to anyone reading the thread. It's more my fault for not explaining in the OP.

 

[Glick]

Tyser don't try to be like bowyer. We already have one downer we don't need two.

 

[Zamuel]

If someone is near the edge and the shield is broken, should you attempt to D-smash or stick with Rollout/F-Smash?

 

[PND]

Rollout will still probably kill earlier. I use DSmash as a way to zone people into off stage gimping shenanigans, not actually kill (unless they are Link / Olimar / other really bad recoveries)

 

[illinialex24]

Rollout will still probably kill earlier. I use DSmash as a way to zone people into off stage gimping shenanigans, not actually kill (unless they are Link / Olimar / other really bad recoveries)

Yeah, the coolest thing is D-smashing a Ness or Lucas that got caught near the stage needing to B-up. Then its a kill.