Shield Grabbed when Shine-Grabbing

[Garr]

So this happened to me one time against this DK player. My opponent perfect-shielded my shine as I approached, and I was going for a grab right after to get through the shield, but he managed to shield-grab before I could grab.

I thought shine-grab was supposed to be guaranteed o______o, and this guy wasn't even that good. He just had a really bad habit to shield-grab all the time.

Someone better than me explain!

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

You probably need to be frame prefect with the grab...?

 

[Garr]

You probably need to be frame prefect with the grab...?

Could've sworn my timing was good. It's already embedded into my muscle memory to always slide my thumb to X immediately after pressing B. Either this guy had gold-like timing, or perfect shields don't suffer from shield-stun. DK grabs may be faster than Fox's.

Nevertheless, my mind got skewered when it happened.

 

[G13_Flux]

shine grab isnt guaranteed. shine is JCable on frame 4, and you need to be in jump squat for a frame in order to cancel into a grab. grab is 7 frames. altogether thats 12 frames until the grab comes out after you hit with the shine. for the opponent, they are subjected to 4 frames of shield stun based on the 5% done by the shine, and after the shield stun is over, 7 frames until the grab comes out, or 11 frames after the shine hits. shine grabs work because its a mix up to your normal shield pressure and its much easier to get near frame perfect timing when youre the one planning the maneuver that is dedicated to muscle memory, as opposed to the opponent being required to act in accordance to youre pressure, who has to rely on reaction as opposed to muscle memory more so. also, one frame leniency with escaping any kind of pressure is extremely difficult to do consistently at any kind of level. nonetheless, it still happens occasionally.

additionally, power shielded moves do not incur any shield stun or hitlag for the powershielder. what i described above was a normal shield. with power shielded shine pressure, even a multi-shine (comes out on frame 8 for fox after the first shine hits) will technically lose to a grab.

 

[Garr]

shine grab isnt guaranteed. shine is JCable on frame 4, and you need to be in jump squat for a frame in order to cancel into a grab. grab is 7 frames. altogether thats 12 frames until the grab comes out after you hit with the shine. for the opponent, they are subjected to 4 frames of shield stun based on the 5% done by the shine, and after the shield stun is over, 7 frames until the grab comes out, or 11 frames after the shine hits. shine grabs work because its a mix up to your normal shield pressure and its much easier to get near frame perfect timing when youre the one planning the maneuver that is dedicated to muscle memory, as opposed to the opponent being required to act in accordance to youre pressure, who has to rely on reaction as opposed to muscle memory more so. also, one frame leniency with escaping any kind of pressure is extremely difficult to do consistently at any kind of level. nonetheless, it still happens occasionally.

additionally, power shielded moves do not incur any shield stun or hitlag for the powershielder. what i described above was a normal shield. with power shielded shine pressure, even a multi-shine (comes out on frame 8 for fox after the first shine hits) will technically lose to a grab.

Ok, good to know.

I've been told it was guaranteed if frame perfect, but shield-grabbing in the middle of it is must require really good timing.

 

[G13_Flux]

@ Garr actually i did my math wrong. since shine is JCable on frame 4, you will be in jumpsquat ON frame 4. which means your grab comes out on frame 11 after the shine hit. assuming that shield stun is applied the same frame that the hitbox connects (which im pretty sure is the case, maybe @ Magus420 can confirm? sorry to bother for such a small thing), both the grabs will come out on frame 11, which leaves it up to port priority. some debug testing can probably easily confirm this but finals are taking up too much of my time atm. (hence why im procrastinating here)

nonetheless, it isnt guaranteed since your opponent can still roll/spotdoge to avoid it, and since the guy you faced powershielded it, he had an additional 4 frames of leeway to perform the grab, which isnt to difficult.

 

[Badge]

assuming that shield stun is applied the same frame that the hitbox connects

Shield stun begins after hitlag is over, so effectively on the frame after the hitbox connects (actually a few frames later, but both characters are in hitlag during that time, so they're irrelevant for calculation of advantage.) Fox can grab one frame sooner than the opponent and thus always beats shield grabs if frame perfect and the opponent didn't powershield and shine is unstaled.

 

[Garr]

@ G13_Flux Okay, I'll keep that in mind. It still f***ed my thought process when it happened 'cuz I never saw anyone shield-grab in the middle of it. Fox is the best character to punish people who always go for shield-grab, and I love it.

 

[G13_Flux]

Shield stun begins after hitlag is over, so effectively on the frame after the hitbox connects (actually a few frames later, but both characters are in hitlag during that time, so they're irrelevant for calculation of advantage.) Fox can grab one frame sooner than the opponent and thus always beats shield grabs if frame perfect and the opponent didn't powershield.

oh thats right i forgot about the hitlag. it was in the back of my mind, but i knew it wasnt needed for the calculations. would have clarified my thinking about the situation if I had took it into consideration more. thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Magus420]

Powershielding attacks does not change hitlag or shieldstun. It only affects your pushback (0.7x), shield damage (none), and shield drop IASAs (adds A/B moves and re-shielding). Reflecting with powersheld is what has no hitlag or shieldstun. Also, grabs on same frame are randomized in brawl/PM rather than always going to to port priority like melee.

Here is some multishine and shine grab advantage info. DK standing grabs on 8 not 7 like most so there's a 2 frame window if the shine is not staled to always beat his shield grab (they have 5 frames to act inbetween, with your grab landing on 6/7).

 

[G13_Flux]

this is where i remember seeing info about it. http://www.ssbwiki.com/Powershield

i guess ssbb wiki proves unreliable, or at least incomplete once again. thanks for the information!

 

[Garr]

Powershielding attacks does not change hitlag or shieldstun. It only affects your pushback (0.7x), shield damage (none), and shield drop IASAs (adds A/B moves and re-shielding). Reflecting with powersheld is what has no hitlag or shieldstun. Also, grabs on same frame are randomized in brawl/PM rather than always going to to port priority like melee.

Here is some multishine and shine grab advantage info. DK standing grabs on 8 not 7 like most so there's a 2 frame window if the shine is not staled to always beat his shield grab (they have 5 frames to act inbetween, with your grab landing on 6/7).

Thanks, dude!