Should King Dedede's infinite chaingrab be banned?

[Cirno]

I'm a game programmer myself. Maybe I just didn't know what exactly a glitch is.
(I'm sorry, but english isn't my main language) Well it's still not intentional and should not be in the game.

I find it hard to believe a game programmer does not know what a glitch is.
Who's intent? Developer intent iis not relevant. When a player attempt the infinite I'm sure he intends to use it.

It would seem we understand each other fine as far as English goes. You were just wrong about what a glitch was, no big deal, now you know.

Off topic, English isn't Yuna's first language either.

Yeah, that's why I want to ban it?! Because it's unfair.

Unless you are clones with mirroring thoughts in dittos it will never be fair.
Even then, fair is subjective. I could say I think banning it is unfair.

I don't understand how everyone can be so heartless.

I don't see anyone anti-ban as heartless.
I myself don't like the infinite because I love Ripple, Tudor, Boss, Bum and other players who main infinite victims. But we can't set arbitrary bans to artificially change matchups. The points for why have been reviewed multiple times.

It would actually make the D3 players better, because they don't just have to move 2 controlsticks over and over (which requires no skill).
If they never have a hard match to win they will get worse. Overall at least.

It's like if you use MK and start to only use upB and/or the tornado.
Because it works you can just do if over and over.
If you don't have to change your playstyle you will get worse if you have to ever face someone where it doesn't work.

It's not a good example... I hope you get what I want to say >_<

DDD's only match up is not DK.
Skill necessary to perform a move is irrelevant.
Doing an infinite in a match does not drop your skill level. If anything, it raises how consistently you can perform the infinite.


Both MK's shuttle loop and tornado can be beat by moves,shields and grabs. If it works there's no need for you to change, you're winning.

It isn't a good example at all, but feel free to try again.

If it really is ban worthy I'd like to have my mind changed.

 

[SCOTU]

Skill necessary to perform a move is irrelevant.

Here's a common thing I see. zomg people are soo technical that the highest level players will be able to consistently do something if it's good. This isn't really true in every case. For something like the DDD infinite, that's easy, and anyone can do it with a little practice.

look at fox's wallshine infinite on falco/fox in melee. It involved jc shines at a sufficiently fast speed. No one used this because it was too hard to be consistent, where something easier, while not infinite was used instead.

also, silly (9)s, Cirno's nub. demoted to stage 1 midboss. lame.

 

[Titanium Dragon]

Enforcing the ban is very easy, please inform yourself before making such ignorant posts.

Enforcing the ban is impossible because a judge has to watch all matches to enforce it, which is simply not realistic. Any definition would hinge on "how many consecutive throws can the chracter do", which requires a judge to count. I'm sorry, you're just wrong.

If DK players get a secondary for DDD, then chances are, they're still DK mains and not DK secondaries. By your own definition, a main is, generally speaking, a character that you play the most. You should be playing your main more than your secondary.

In any event, if you main ANY character, and play them consistently, then someone can pick a character who has a good matchup against your character. Unless a character has no bad matchups, this is always a possibility, and all it really ends up meaning is you shouldn't pick a character who can be infinited with DeDeDe if you think there's a chance your foe will pick DeDeDe.

Yes, its not always so extreme, but is true.

However, to say that he's not a DK main does not make sense because you're not going to fight DDD enough to have to use that secondary more than your main. If the sole reason a DK player gets a secondary is to deal with DDD, then he would have to face DDD more than every other character combined in order to end up playing his secondary more than DK. Also, let's cut the theory out - not everyone CPs DK with DDD for whatever reason, so clearly DK does not fight DDD every single round, even if the opponent can force that to happen.

If you go with the following:

Round 2, you won: Play secondary.
Round 2, you lost: You know whether or not to play DK, depending on what character they pick.
Round 3: see round 2.

What's the problem?

Also, as if your DK/Bowser/whatever is so good that your opponents will usually want to pick DeDeDe to counter, if you have a good anti-DeDeDe secondary you might trap people into playing a character they're less comfortable with as an attempt to counter your main. This isn't a bad thing for your tournament success.

If your complaint is "I can't play the same character all the time", well then, tough. Any character (at least arguably) has matchups which do not favor them. Even beyond that, there will be players who specialize in pwning your character of choice, and if you don't switch in those cases, it could well doom you anyway. This is an issue for anyone who mains any character. Get used to it; you're being unreasonable.

The worst case scenario is that you never pick DK or another infinitable character when they can pick DeDeDe. This is not exactly tragic, given there were characters in SSBM you'd pretty much never want to use blind against anyone good. Yeah, we'd rather have a game where this was never necessary, but on the other hand, I don't think its a huge deal for a game to function in this way and if these characters have good matchups elsewhere its not like you wouldn't ever want to use them.

Moreover, why can't you pick DK round 1? If you know your opponent is unlikely to pick DeDeDe, it may be worth it.

I disagree with the banning of a lot things, this included. I think the community is way too ban-happy in general. This is also why the Smash community takes so much heat from other communities. We have to ban a crazy amount of things to make the game acceptable? Smash Bros is bad by default?

That's because there are so many scrubs in the Smash community. To be fair, its true amongst many games highly accessible to bad players - SSB is the most accessible fighting game, so we have lots of scrubs as a proportion of the population. Counterstrike has lots of scrubs, and you can see all the servers which ban random weapons (usually the awp, but I've also seen random other weapons which are anything but overpowered banned).

Its all the same, really.

 

[Luigi player]

I find it hard to believe a game programmer does not know what a glitch is.
Who's intent? Developer intent iis not relevant. When a player attempt the infinite I'm sure he intends to use it.

It would seem we understand each other fine as far as English goes. You were just wrong about what a glitch was, no big deal, now you know.

Off topic, English isn't Yuna's first language either.

Yeah, that's what I meant. What does this have to do with Yuna?

Of course it is not that relevant, but if it's as broken and skill less as this is... something like that shouldn't exist. And if it does we should ban it.

Unless you are clones with mirroring thoughts in dittos it will never be fair.
Even then, fair is subjective. I could say I think banning it is unfair.

Well of course no matchup is totally equal unless it's a ditto.
But DK vs D3 is not just unfair. It is totally unfair and a decent player can beat a very very good DK.

I don't see anyone anti-ban as heartless.
I myself don't like the infinite because I love Ripple, Tudor, Boss, Bum and other players who main infinite victims. But we can't set arbitrary bans to artificially change matchups. The points for why have been reviewed multiple times.

I see everyone from the anti-ban as heartless =/
I mean, how can you care about the game if you just poop on those 5 characters?

DDD's only match up is not DK.
Skill necessary to perform a move is irrelevant.
Doing an infinite in a match does not drop your skill level. If anything, it raises how consistently you can perform the infinite.

Yeah and since it isn't the only matchup D3 will get worse if he's used more on DK than others. I know my example sucked. Anyway, the skill that is needed to perform it is not irrelevant, because if ICs was really easy to do then their infinites would get banned. Even if grabbing an opponent isn't really easy. If their chaingrabs would be as easy as the D3 infinite I'm sure they would totally dominate the smash scene.

If D3s infinite was difficult and mess-up able, DK players would not really complain that much, because they could get free. But this just doesn't happen because it's really really easy to do.

Both MK's shuttle loop and tornado can be beat by moves,shields and grabs. If it works there's no need for you to change, you're winning.

I just wanted to make an example. I know it's not like that lol. I just want to say: If they suddenly would have problems against someone (who maybe figured out how to avoid it) and they always only did this (and before they played normally) they will probably perform worse.

 

[Cirno]

Here's a common thing I see. zomg people are soo technical that the highest level players will be able to consistently do something if it's good. This isn't really true in every case. For something like the DDD infinite, that's easy, and anyone can do it with a little practice.

MK's infinite cape requires precision and stamina to use in the manner people banned it for.
It wasn't even done in a tourney once before it was banned because we know our community.

If it can be done it will. That's all there is to it really.

IC's alt throw infinite isn't easy. Watching Lain would have you believe it's a walk in the park.
Wobbling? I couldn't do it consistently. Wobbles used more effort breathing.

look at fox's wallshine infinite on falco/fox in melee. It involved jc shines at a sufficiently fast speed. No one used this because it was too hard to be consistent, where something easier, while not infinite was used instead.

What?
The only time I didn't see it used were when the opportunity wasn't present due to wall stages being banned at certain tourneys and the other player never let himself be put in that situation.

also, silly (9)s, Cirno's nub. demoted to stage 1 midboss. lame.

OMG low blow.
D:


Despite your violent behavior, the only thing you've managed to break, is my heart, maybe you can be satisfied with that.

;-;

 

[Luigi player]

...

1st match:
The enemy knows that you use the character, so he uses D3. D3 doesn't has too bad matchups, so it's not really risky to use him because it could result in a 100 % win.

2nd match:
*)The infinite-victim- main won. He cannot use any of those characters, because the enemy would counterpick Dedede.

*)The infi-victim main lost. The other player could just use D3 again and the DK/whatever main cannot use his "main".

3rd match:
*)The DK main lost the first match and won the second. Now he can't use any of those characters because the enemy can counterpick D3.

*)The DK main won the first match and lost the second. Now the player could maybe use his main if the other player decides to not use D3.


You cannot really say that this is his main then, because he'd always get beatn by D3s and would have to change to someone else.


->

1st match: risky
2nd match: risky
3rd match: if you won the first and lost the second, you might be able to use DK/Mario/... if the enemy doesn't choose D3.

 

[Tyser]

Brawl should be banned for being the worst game of '08.

 

[KillerSOS]

Brawl should be banned for being the worst game of '08.

Wow.. your not even a good troll.

Go back and try to learn to troll again lolz

 

[SCOTU]

MK's infinite cape requires precision and stamina to use in the manner people banned it for.
It wasn't even done in a tourney once before it was banned because we know our community.

If it can be done it will. That's all there is to it really.

IC's alt throw infinite isn't easy. Watching Lain would have you believe it's a walk in the park.
Wobbling? I couldn't do it consistently. Wobbles used more effort breathing.

If it can be done it won't necessarily be done if it's too hard and there are alternatives that are easier, with similar yield. I happen to host a lot of tourneys lain goes to, and I know very well his ICs cgs, and he doesn't make them look like a walk in the park. He messes up his fair share. He still tries, but he's not perfect at it.

What?
The only time I didn't see it used were when the opportunity wasn't present due to wall stages being banned at certain tourneys and the other player never let himself be put in that situation.

Fox's wallshine infinite is easy on characters that slide to the shine, but to do it to another fox, or to falco requires more tech skill and precision than it's worth.

I discovered this infinite myself, and as far as i know, I'm the only person to ever use it in tourney. Let me tell you: I'm not good at it, and I only do it to show off.

But you might think: "WOW fox can infinite falco, ****, someone's gonna master it and **** falcos left and right". Well, you're wrong. It's FAAAAAR easier to shffl>shine>tech chase against a wall, although it's not infinite, it yields more damage on average because of its ease.

OMG low blow.
D:


Despite your violent behavior, the only thing you've managed to break, is my heart, maybe you can be satisfied with that.

;-;

lol, no hard feelings man, i meant that in a funny, heartlifting, sarcastic way, not to make fun of you.

 

[OmegaXF]

Walked in on 284 pages of BS.....time for me to turn around.......

 

[1048576]

1st match:
The enemy knows that you use the character, so he uses D3. D3 doesn't has too bad matchups, so it's not really risky to use him because it could result in a 100 % win.

2nd match:
*)The infinite-victim- main won. He cannot use any of those characters, because the enemy would counterpick Dedede.

*)The infi-victim main lost. The other player could just use D3 again and the DK/whatever main cannot use his "main".

3rd match:
*)The DK main lost the first match and won the second. Now he can't use any of those characters because the enemy can counterpick D3.

*)The DK main won the first match and lost the second. Now the player could maybe use his main if the other player decides to not use D3.


You cannot really say that this is his main then, because he'd always get beatn by D3s and would have to change to someone else.


->

1st match: risky
2nd match: risky
3rd match: if you won the first and lost the second, you might be able to use DK/Mario/... if the enemy doesn't choose D3.

You can say the exact same think replacing DK with any char except MK and replacing D3 with that char's counter.

 

[gantrain05]

1st match:
The enemy knows that you use the character, so he uses D3. D3 doesn't has too bad matchups, so it's not really risky to use him because it could result in a 100 % win.

2nd match:
*)The infinite-victim- main won. He cannot use any of those characters, because the enemy would counterpick Dedede.

*)The infi-victim main lost. The other player could just use D3 again and the DK/whatever main cannot use his "main".

3rd match:
*)The DK main lost the first match and won the second. Now he can't use any of those characters because the enemy can counterpick D3.

*)The DK main won the first match and lost the second. Now the player could maybe use his main if the other player decides to not use D3.


You cannot really say that this is his main then, because he'd always get beatn by D3s and would have to change to someone else.


->

1st match: risky
2nd match: risky
3rd match: if you won the first and lost the second, you might be able to use DK/Mario/... if the enemy doesn't choose D3.

i know your on the pro-ban side, i am as well, but your not making the best of arguments lol, this scenario is what happens to pretty much everybody who is playing a better player, even most MK mains have a secondary, this is a situation where u should probably have a few backup characters, i play probably 10 characters at tourney level just for the sole reason of being able to counterpick any situation.

 

[Cirno]

Yeah, that's what I meant. What does this have to do with Yuna?

Of course it is not that relevant, but if it's as broken and skill less as this is... something like that shouldn't exist. And if it does we should ban it.

Ahh, I said off topic, but you mentioned English wasn't your first language so...

Kirby has 6 jumps and a spike. To spike any character you press down on the c-stick.
I think that's pretty broken. It doesn't take much skill.

MK has one of smallest learning curves ingame, his tornado has more priority than a majority of moves in the game, he's also fast and has two spammable kill moves. Some people believe he is broken.

G&W is more powerful than MK, a similarly small learning curve, decent speed, incredibly long active frames on several of his kill moves, a tech chase that rivals Snakes, and survives Snake's uptilt longer than MK (despite being lighter using bucket braking). Several people already believe he is broken.


Where do we draw the line for what is broken or skill less?
If we are banning according to current criteria the infinite does not fall under the necessities.
If we add new criteria or ban just for the sake of these matchups we'll create a slippery slope and end up with more and more bans.


Are we wrong for protecting the metagame over characters?

Well of course no matchup is totally equal unless it's a ditto.
But DK vs D3 is not just unfair. It is totally unfair and a decent player can beat a very very good DK.

The same can be said for Pikachu vs Fox though.

Why are we not helping Fox?
Are we getting revenge for the countless shine spikes he gave us?
Did he already have his chance in the last game?
Is 0-death not good enough if it's not an infinite?

Why are you saving someone from being dipped in acid and not the guy next to him being burned alive?

I see everyone from the anti-ban as heartless =/
I mean, how can you care about the game if you just poop on those 5 characters?

It's not out fault they're in the toilet. This debate is our way of telling them to climb out before it's too late.

Yeah and since it isn't the only matchup D3 will get worse if he's used more on DK than others.

But DK isn't that popular. He doesn't and shouldn't appear often against DDD. Even if he did it's unlikely his skill would lower.

Marth has been using fair since Melee, he's only becoming more of a pain in the *** thanks to his buffed Side-b and footstools.

I know my example sucked. Anyway, the skill that is needed to perform it is not irrelevant, because if ICs was really easy to do then their infinites would get banned.

That was a pretty nasty contradiction.
If this gets banned it may anyway due to the line we'll have to set.

Even if grabbing an opponent isn't really easy. If their chaingrabs would be as easy as the D3 infinite I'm sure they would totally dominate the smash scene.

Easy for who?
D throw chain grab is easy peasy at early percents, and is 0-death on some characters.

Falco's too~

If they find a way to approach or increase their grab range they will.
The defense options are too good in Brawl it all comes down to out thinking your opponent using the tools at hand. And they are currently shorthanded in priority, speed, and range (hands. lololol short hands, see what I did thar?)

If D3s infinite was difficult and mess-up able, DK players would not really complain that much, because they could get free. But this just doesn't happen because it's really really easy to do.

People will complain no matter what. If it was as ahrd to do as IC's infinite , DK would still get infinited, still have a 95:5, and still have to worry about getting couterpicked in a competitive seen.

I just wanted to make an example. I know it's not like that lol. I just want to say: If they suddenly would have problems against someone (who maybe figured out how to avoid it) and they always only did this (and before they played normally) they will probably perform worse.

That's how matches usually go anyway.
One player has a good strategy, the other finds a way around it and uses his own.It continues like this until someone can no longer find away around and loses.

DDD now has an infinite on DK that he can use anywhere, at anytime and almost always guarantee a stock off. The conditions necessary to start and continue the infinite are that DK must get grabbed, the footing DDD has while performing must not change, and he must not go past 300% or he forfeits.

Ness and Lucas recently has a problem with Marth's grab release on them, extra inch DI was there way around. Hopefully DK and Boozer can find one too.

 

[Cirno]

If it can be done it won't necessarily be done if it's too hard and there are alternatives that are easier, with similar yield. I happen to host a lot of tourneys lain goes to, and I know very well his ICs cgs, and he doesn't make them look like a walk in the park. He messes up his fair share. He still tries, but he's not perfect at it.

I've seen you against his TL before actually, so I'm sure you've played.
He recently posted in the Best Vids of Each character thread that it's not easy what he does.
I know it to be true, I use IC's too.

But who do you think it's easier for?
Obviously, him due to experience right?
What's stopping him from getting it just like how wavedashing was for us in Melee?



We all try. We're all getting better too.
I just yesterday saw one of Lain's matches against Noj(Needle of Juntah).
I know Niko was kidding but it's titled Lain(IC) vs NoJ (Doesn't Matter).

That's how well he is able to pull it off as of 12-12-08.

During the second match in the vid every initial grab was a 0-death.

Lain is no lame. And this has got to be getting easier on him as expected through experience. I hope to play him one day.

Fox's wallshine infinite is easy on characters that slide to the shine, but to do it to another fox, or to falco requires more tech skill and precision than it's worth.

That's the thing though, isn't it?
End result--worth.

Jab is one of the easiest things to do in every game.ZSS has a 1st frame jab. You can push a so fast the controller catches fire in all it's technical difficulty, but if all it's doing is not as effective as B spam and side B spacing despite being easier, it's no point in using it.

Why spend money to have a girl with you every night when you can work a bit harder to get a girl friend and have her exclusively(hopefully) with less or no money( it won't be hourly but unless you find one that's not material god help you if you forget anniversary gifts)?

I discovered this infinite myself, and as far as i know, I'm the only person to ever use it in tourney. Let me tell you: I'm not good at it, and I only do it to show off

I'm easily impressed and greatly entertained.(lulz wombo combo)
Send me a vid if you ever get one.

I'm more Brawl these days, but I will always love Melee.

But you might think: "WOW fox can infinite falco, ****, someone's gonna master it and **** falcos left and right". Well, you're wrong. It's FAAAAAR easier to shffl>shine>tech chase against a wall, although it's not infinite, it yields more damage on average because of its ease.

If it works as well as you say, and it gets out it will be mastered. Not like it's gonna hurt those Fox dittos and EPIC Falco v Fox matches.
(:


And Melee smashers are some of the most competitive people on the planet imo.
If it's worth it's weight it's done.

lol, no hard feelings man, i meant that in a funny, heartlifting, sarcastic way, not to make fun of you.

I know.
<3 Touhou.


My response was actually a quote from Portal, the game is hilarious.

 

[Yuna]

That's because you're ignoring them, just like i'm going to use the ignore function on you now.

We happen to be addressing your so called points every single time you bring them up. We just happen to also deem them invalid.

if it's humanly possible, it will be learned[/i], right?

Humanly possible doesn't mean people can master it without having ever done it before by simply picking D3 and winging it.

DK's worst match besides infinite DDD is a 6-4 with Wario, he has really good matchups. No one else breaks him.

That was a mispelling of "beat", not "break".

You underestimate how easy it is to learn.

Mid-match without ever having used it before, ever?

This is why. It takes 0 seconds of practice. Just switch your controls and you have an instant infinite. Even without it the timing is easy enough to learn that you really probably can learn it during a match. For a good player it takes an incredibly small amount of practice.

If so, then I stand corrected. Still, it's not being done on such a wide scale it's impossible to main DK, as far as I know.

Someone who doesn't even play DDD really can beat a DK theoretically

This was never in contention.

The reason, as I stated before, is that no matter what the Bowser/DK does, they cannot win. Ever. It's not because it's hard, it's because it's impossible. It also helps that the technique has no other uses, which makes the ban discrete. That last one is not a reason in itself, but it's important to note Dedede does not lose anything against other characters because of the ban.

And our question is:
Yes, and?! Life isn't fair, Competitive gaming isn't fair in particular.

It's not whether the matchup is impossible or not, because it is, it's if enough characters are affected to warrant the ban.

No one has argued that for all intents and purposes, this isn't impossible (just that other match-ups are impossible as well, yet no one's proposing we ban things there).

To me, 1 is too much, but unfortunately for me, the SBR will probably think differently.

Yes, because to you, everyone has to stand a "fair" chance and never have impossible match-ups. That is totally arbitrary. "It's OK that you get 80-20:ed, Fox. But since DK is getting 100:0:ed, we have to start banning things for him."

I'm not going to walk you step-by-step through my argument because it's not hard to understand at all. If a technique makes it so a player's input has no influence on the outcome of the game, it should be considered for banning. If the ban is enforceable, then ban it.

I do believe I brought up Melee NTSC Sheik's dthrow at least twice against this.

Have done this. Also have asked chu's mom/sister and random smashers that have never touched DDD before to try it. Slowest learning curve was 12 seconds. Most of them got it from the first grab.

Fine, it's ridiculously easy to learn. It's not being done, though. Most probably because there are so very few DK mains in non-banned tournaments.

(And I have never argued that this is any reason not to/to ban it)

Don't edit your post just because it was refuted to try to look better. If adumbrodeus hadn't quoted it, I wouldn't have known it had been said.

My post contained zero personal attacks on you. I actually made an effort to be nicer to you because I had yet to deem you a lost cause. Just because I time and again destroyed your arguments does not mean I was attacking your person.

Also, before accusing others of wrong-doing, try to keep your up-to-speed on current evens. Yes, it is two characters. Technically, it is three, but since the third is D3 himself, it's not like it matters. It's not like D3 destroys his own match-up against himself.

You're making a demand he cannot possibly facilitate. Since either side of this debacle is ultimately subjective, drawing a stalemate by asking for objective evidence for something that is not objective will not resolve in a conclusion for either side. Try to avoid this.

He asked for "concrete information", not "concrete objective evidence".

You cannot go an entire match-up without getting grabbed by Pika. This isn't Melee Fox (and even he got grabbed). That chaingrab destroys Fox.

It's not as easy as D3's to hit, but it still destroys Fox.

Really bad matchup =/= impossible matchup.

Impossible match-up = Can mean "Really bad match-up"

There's really no limit of how bad a match-up has to be before we can stop simply referring to it as "Really bad match-up". We're referring to it as such so we can encompass the ones who are really bad, yet not "impossible" at the same time.

Everything is possible or else we would probably ONLY see Meta Knights, Snakes and probably Dededes.
And by only I mean only. For other characters it wouldn't be possible to win against those, yet we see them winning some tourneys (Wario, even Sonic and Pokemon Trainer... everyone can win)

1) Wario wins because his match-ups against the Top Tiers aren't that bad.
2) Sonic wins (although almost never) for the same reasons.
3) Pokémon Trainer is just ****. No one's ever come close to winning a major tournament as him AFAIK (and neither has Sonic, though his match-ups aren't that bad against the Tops and Highs, he still has Meta Knight to contend to).
4) Nobody cares if a character can win minor and/or local tournaments. Because the skill level at those isn't that high.
5) Yes, everything is possible. Nobody cares.

So saying e.g. Sonic vs MK is 70:30 (or worse? Idk) is really bad for Sonic and he will probably never win is not a good argument, because Sonic CAN win against Meta Knight.

And one of the anti-ban arguments is:
We do not care. Competitive gaming is not about creating "possible" match-up out of "impossible" ones through bans. And who are you to say what constitutes "impossible", anyway?

So D3's infinite constitutes "Impossible", yet Sheik's NTSC Melee Dthrow Chaingrab doesn't?

It is not as bad as DK vs D3.
Fox has a chance to win. It is small, but it is there.

Arbitrary threshold.

Fox has a projectile so he could camp Pikachu. Fox has his side B to "run" fast away from Pika (side B has invincibility frames and is fast).

Pikachu also has a crawl. And the projectile has no stun. Side B also lags.

Fox can stay in the air easily with his down B which makes it impossible for Pikachu to grab him (I know he won't stay there forever, but it still helps a bit).

Pikachu happens to have excellent smashes and aerials. If Fox decides to randomly stall in the air, Pikachu can still wreck him. So all you're doing is choosing the lesser of two being, forced into it by the chaingrab (even if you're not getting hit by it, you're still governed by fear of it).

Pikachus grab range isn't so good. Foxs grab range is better than Pikachus. Fox can hold Pikachu away from him with his jabs (Pikachu can not grab Fox out of it). Pikachus chaingrab will not KO Fox.

Neither will D3's dthrow. He KO's with U- or B-throw. Which is irrelevent. Pikachu's chaingrab itself breaks the entire match-up. He's already good against Fox. But the chaingrab, that's just the icing that breaks the cake.

DK loses to D3.

We know, we don't care. You've just proven that Fox vs. Pikachu isn't as bad as DK vs. D3. No one's arguing that. We're arguing that both have chaingrabs that destroy the other side.

Yeah. Everyone loves to counterpick. And for good reason, although a matchup that is not in your favour isn't a 100 % loss for you (because if it was everyone would play MK, Snake or maybe Dedede). For DK it is. That means DK (and the other characters) can only be used as counterpicks, if you lose. Thus it is not possible to main those characters unless you're risking a 95-100 % loss.

And we don't care!

Matchups that are that bad should not exist.

Please specify why.

You should always have a chance to win.

No, you shouldn't. Plenty of match-ups are really ****ty. Melee NTSC Sheik's Dthrow rears its ugly head and says "I".

The only thing preventing this is a stupid glitch from the game.

Whether it is a glitch or not is inconsequential. It has never played a role in determining whether or not to ban anything.

Of course everyone loves some "glitches" and "exploits" to use and "advance" the game with them (wavedashing, glide tossing, etc. was probably not intentional).

Not intentional =/= Glitch/exploit

Wavedashing was the natural result of two Melee elements coming together.

What does D3s infinite do to the game? It does NOT make it better. It makes it worse and completely shuts down 5 otherwise viable characters.

Two. Two. Two. Two. Two!

If you say just counterpick it means you cannot main those characters unless you risk a 100 % loss, which is stupid.

Lots of things in Competitive game is stupid. Doesn't mean they warrant a ban.

That this infinite is possible is just something the game programmers overlooked and nothing more.

Stop saying this like it matters.

Nothing in the game is currently as bad as those matchups. Every character has a better chance at winning against Meta Knight than DK vs D3.

Believe it or not, Meta Knight is not the destroyer of match-ups.

Believe it or, "They are the worst match-ups in the game" isn't very valid of an argument either.

Say something else that I can shut down please so I can have everything covered.

How about the main argument:
It does not over-centralize the game, break it or make it unplayable (kinda the same thing as breaking, but not necessarily).

My writings and opinions on this might not be perfect, sorry. If someone wants to add/change a bit just say it.

Two. Two. Two. Two. Two!

Well first I'm the best player in my country and probably one of the best in europe.

Who are you? I've met some of the best players in Austria. Whether you are good at Brawl or not does not mean you necessarily possess the necessary insight into Competitive Brawl and/or Gaming to discuss this subject matter.

I probably know more about smash than you do because I don't do anything else than smashing at the moment.

Two. Two. Two. Two. Two!

The fact that you write this stuff just means that you are an arrogant ***** and nothing else.

No, you truly embody the "2008 spirit". If anything, it's "elitist".

Then way do you support it by not banning the infinite?

How does not banning it make the game MK, Snake, Falco only? Your reply had nothing to do with what you ewre reply to.

If less characters are viable we will see more of those.

Characters are unviable because of a lot of things. We do not ban things to make them viable. Because that would be stupid. Because then we'd see a jillion bans. We do not ban things to create as viable a roster as possible, only things which severely limit the viability of the roster of a whole, and before you say anything:

Two. Two. Two. Two. Two!

If you just don't care about any other character than the one you play... well...why do you play the game in the first place?

I guess you're just an egoist. If your character(s) would be affected you'd want this banned too.

No, we wouldn't. You know what the first thing I when I started playing Brawl? Switch from the now very unviable Peach to Marth. It happened literally overnight. I didn't whine, I didn't think twice, because I know that this is how Competitive gaming works.

If tomorrow, someone found out a way to render my current main of mains, Zelda, unviable, I'd just not play her or at least only keep her around as a counter-pick. Because that's how Competitive gaming works.

We care about what's good for the game, not just what' good for our characters (as opposed to some heavily biased people).

Yeah of course everyone plays it because it's fun, but I'm sure everyone who started playing this game started to play it because his favourite characters were in it.

Casually? Probably. Competitively? No.

I play games Competitively because I like how the games play at the Competitive level, not because of the characters in the game. Now, if I happen to dislike the styles of all of the characters in the game, then I probably won't play it.

But I would never start playing a game Competitively (and stick with it) only because my favorite characters were in it. I'm not even that big of a Nintendo fan. I just started playing Smash because I liked the way Smash plays, not because I could play as Peach or, whoever, who I had only ever played in Super Mario Bros 2. (Doki Doki Panic) several years prior, yet she became my main.

I will probably also travel around when I have the money to do so.

You cannot possibly be "the best player in Austria and probably one of the best players in all of Europe" if you do not travel. How the heck would you know how well you stack up against everyone else? Online?

I'm sure some are. And if no one is there is no other reason why they wouldn't want this banned.

Speaking of bias for you own character, seeing as how this infinite doesn't work on Luigi, you shouldn't even be here.

Because if they would they would want to make it more enjoyable for every player.

But that is not one of the stipulations of Competitive gaming. Do you think Captain Falcon players find getting it in the shorts all the time enjoyable? Should we ban things there? No edgeguarding his horrible recovery, possibly?

Are you ironic here? I can't tell if you're just stupid or ironic (probably both).

No, you just have no idea what a glitch really is.

See. You don't give a **** about those characters -> everyone who plays them should just play someone else or stop playing.

This is one of the main unwritten rules of Competitive gaming. If your character has a ****ty match-up, we're not going to help you. Get a new main.

Competitive gaming is not about being able to play as your favorite character, as you put it. If you don't like that and insist on maining Luigi, go back to Casual gaming.

If you hate Brawl so much I don't understand why you're even at the Brawl boards.

Don't care about =/= Hate

It obviously does need to be banned. If it wouldn't nobody would say anything about it.

People whine about things all the time. Just because people whine about it does not mean they are right to whine about it or that their whining is warranted, even if the whiners are in the majority. The majority isn't always right, someone whining does not mean they are right.

This is inane logic. People are whining about it, thus something must be wrong.

Tell me how a skillless glitch that destroys some characters makes the game better.

Two of the most inane arguments of the pro-side in one sentence.

"Skilless" =/= Matters. Nobody matters if it takes skill or not if it's possible to master.
Glitch - No it's not

Mr. Best in Austria, one of the Best in Europe (yet who doesn't travel, ever)

 

[1048576]

Game Set.

 

[Yuna]

Hive, I'm giving you your own post since you probably would miss this if I didn't:

lol nvm ^^ i don't want to argue this here
<removes post>
yuna is just too off topic and strawmans everything

Wow. If by going off topic and strawmming, you mean addressing each of your (very invalid) points individually and refuting them all.

You were the one who claimed "Having an impact on the metagame = Over-centralization".

'm really not sure if you keep doing this intentionally yuna, however besides being the biggest multiquote i've seen in awhile that you referred me to ^^, it basically was the most offtopic, strawmanned, ill informed, personal attacking post i've ever seen. this is why i asked you not to answer me to top it off you decided ddds infinite only effects 2 people (wtf?)

Everything in that post was valid. You not knowing that this only concerns two characters (besides D3 himself) is not my fault. Before accusing others of ignorance, educate yourself more.

There was no strawmanning in there. There ewre no personal attacks. I was actually being nicer than usual to you because I had yet to deem you a lost cause.

 

[Yuna]

(I accidentally hit post, somehow, while hitting backspace to erase some things. Seriously, I hit backspace twice and it posted the **** post. So mods, no infraction for this. I would've deleted it if it were possible.)

It is skill less. That is a fact.

It is also irrelevant whether it's "skilless" of not.

It is a glitch. It's an error in the game (which we can fix just by banning it).

An error =/= A glitch
This =/= An error

This is Donkey Kong sliding almost nowhere from D3's dthrow. How far you slide depends on who you are. Some characters just happen to slide so little D3 can grab them again. It's simply D3's amazing grab range, D3's dthrow's mechanics + the inept sliding of certain characters.

This is the game doing 100% what it should be doing based on how it is designed.

TL;DR: Just because it is an error does not mean it is a glitch. This isn't even an error.

That it is stupid is my opinion which was create by those other two statements.

Oh but you see, in a debate, you do not need merely statements (which are irrelevant and/or wrong). You need facts.

The IC infinite is probably no glitch. They could already do it in Melee and the developers should know that it can work.

Just because they knew about it does not mean they cared or even knew enough about it to fix it.

Yeah but it's a stupid weakness.

Yes, and?

It's just a skill-less glitch, I don't see the problem in banning it.

We do. Believe it or not, we don't care what you think. You have to justify why you think so as to get others to agree with you. This is what debate is all about.

I will definitely stop using DK as much as I do now if this won't get banned, because I don't want to take such a risk.

This is how Competitive gaming works.

I don't know why so many people don't want it banned.
If D3s infinite would be banned: D3 players would have to play normally (oh em gee!); more people would use those characters.
If D3s infinite is not banned: D3 will not be able to use it that much anyway, since there will not be many people that use those characters.

Banning things for arbitrary and unwarranted reasons is bad.

And this is inane logic. If we do ban it, then those characters will be played more, thus there'd be a need to use it against them, but you wouldn't be able to.

Of course not banning it will have us see less use of those characters. But it doesn't mean we shouldn't ban it just because it'd become "useless" anyway since there'd be no one to infinite. Circular reasoning to the extreme.

Probably. If they'd just ban it people would most likely use those characters more though.

This has never been a reason to ban anything.

In the future many people will probably play better and want to win even more.

If they aren't already, they are bad Competitive players.

If it won't get banned I'm sure people will start to counterpick all of those 5 characters with Dedede, because there's no reason to not do it. It's basically a free win.

And the question would be: Yes, and? It's called counterpicking, as you so obviously know.

- the player will switch (to probably higher tiered) characters (maybe MK?)
- the player will stop playing the game

Yes, this is how Competitive gaming works! Those who want to win have to learn to counterpick and/or stop maining ****ty characters with ****ty match-ups. Those who cannot reconcile with not being able to always play as their favorite character has no place in Competitive gaming.

Competitive gaming is not about playing as your favorite character. It never has been.

The result will be that the characters will not evolve anymore and will just be stopped being played. And also the smash scene shrinks.

"And this is news?" - Prue Halliwell, Something Wicked This Way Comes/Charmed, 1998

Characters are played less because of unviability all the time. Nobody (credible) cares.

So you want to tell me that most people who have a Wii hate Nintendo and don't care about it?

I'm sorry, I don't think anyone's made that claim. I think you need to brush up on your English a bit if that's what you got from his post.

I'm a game programmer myself. Maybe I just didn't know what exactly a glitch is.

And the question would be:
Why did you fight us so vehemently, laughing at us and calling us names when we told you you were wrong? This is the very definition of arrogance (ironic, no?), thinking you are right when so many tell you you are wrong and instead of even bothering to Google the subject matter to make sure you're actually right (like any normal intelligent human being who isn't arrogant beyond the extreme) in cases where that is possible, you just assumed that you couldn't possibly be wrong.

(I'm sorry, but english isn't my main language) Well it's still not intentional and should not be in the game.

I'm pretty sure the word term "glitch" means the same in any language. Now unless the Austrian word for "glitch" just happens to sound nothing like it, there's no excusing this.

Intentional =/= Matters

It does not matter if the makers did something intentionally or not. And the question would be: What constitutes intentionality? Did the makers intend for Meta Knight to be the best character in the game? Did the makers intend for PK Thunder to be used the way it is used? If the makers did something with one intent in mind but we're not using it the way they intended us to, does that mean it shouldn't be in the game?

The infinite works with the system. It works 100% as it's supposed to according to the program. Whether the makers intended for it to be possible when they made the game is irrelevant. It's just several gaming mechanics coming together.

Creator intent is meaningless. And nobody credible cares about it, nor would they ever use it as an argument or even mention it in a debate.

Yeah, that's why I want to ban it?! Because it's unfair.

Life isn't fair. I suggest you stop living it (this is a logical reply to his argument, not an urge for him to kill himself. Things that aren't fair shouldn't exist, right?)

I don't understand how everyone can be so heartless.

I don't understand why you think it's heartless. I don't understand why you think it matters is some characters are unviable and not banning things to make them viable is somehow heartless. I just don't play unviable characters in Competitive play.

It would actually make the D3 players better, because they don't just have to move 2 controlsticks over and over (which requires no skill).

Nobody cares.

If they never have a hard match to win they will get worse. Overall at least.

They still have hard match-ups. Even to disadvantaged ones. Believe it or not, Bowser and DK do not dictate the metagame of Brawl.

It's like if you use MK and start to only use upB and/or the tornado.

And if that actually worked, and it didn't make him too good of a character, no one would care.

Because it works you can just do if over and over.

And it needs to be banned because of this?

If you don't have to change your playstyle you will get worse if you have to ever face someone where it doesn't work.

But you see, you yourself argued that we never see the Sucky 5 (really, 2) in tournaments, anyway. And why anyone try to infinite characters who cannot be infinited? D3's play almost exclusively characters they cannot infinite, so there's no reason for them to become worse playes due to the infinite just existing and being banned.

The logic here is really lacking.

It's not a good example... I hope you get what I want to say >_<

Then why did you use it in the first place?

Yeah, that's what I meant. What does this have to do with Yuna?

Because contrary to what my eloquence and firm grasp of the English language might make some people believe, English is not my first language. It's not even my second language (although, you're Austrian, so it might not be your second language either). It's my third language.

He was saying that not having English as your first language isn't a very good excuse.

Of course it is not that relevant, but if it's as broken and skill less as this is... something like that shouldn't exist. And if it does we should ban it.

Whether it requires skill or not is irrelevant concerned whether or not it should be banned. Stop using it as an argument. It is not broken. Because it does not break the game.

Well of course no matchup is totally equal unless it's a ditto.
But DK vs D3 is not just unfair. It is totally unfair and a decent player can beat a very very good DK.

Life isn't fair. I suggest you, oops, Deja Vu.

I see everyone from the anti-ban as heartless =/

And we don't care.

I mean, how can you care about the game if you just poop on those 5 characters?

Because this is Competitive gaming. And because it only works on two ( Two. Two. Two. Two. Two!) characters!

Yeah and since it isn't the only matchup D3 will get worse if he's used more on DK than others.

No, because tournaments aren't spilling over with DKs. And even if they were, it's not like D3 would never face anyone but DK's. You can make this argument against everything, but contrary to popular belief, you cannot play the same way against all characters.

Certain characters require certain combos and tactics. If you get too used to one match-up, you might become worse at other match-ups. And why would this be relevant to whether or not this should be banned?!

I know my example sucked.

Then why did you use it?

Anyway, the skill that is needed to perform it is not irrelevant, because if ICs was really easy to do then their infinites would get banned.

No, they wouldn't. If IC's infinites were easy to perform at all, they would be banned. Just because IC's infinites require "skill" doesn't mean they wouldn't be banned if they were "too good". They aren't banned because they aren't "too good", not because of the skill involved.

This is just you guessing again.

Even if grabbing an opponent isn't really easy. If their chaingrabs would be as easy as the D3 infinite I'm sure they would totally dominate the smash scene.

No. Because there are already IC mainers out there who have pretty much mastered their infinites, yet hey aren't winning. Why? Because it's not very easy to grab people as IC's and it requires prep. You can't just pull it out of the blue. If you keep the IC's separated, they won't be able to infinite you, plain and simple.

Thus, it is hard to pull not, not due to skill, but due to the game itself working against the IC's. Thus, it is not "too good" and is not banned. Stop guessing. It makes this too easy.

If D3s infinite was difficult and mess-up able, DK players would not really complain that much, because they could get free.

No, because people would still master it, if it were humanly possible.

But this just doesn't happen because it's really really easy to do.

In the eyes of Competitive gaming, this means nothing.

We can only hope. Maybe they'll start playing melee.

Maybe that's why Luigi Player is (or at least thinks) he's "the best player in Austria, probably one of the best in Europe" (and how would be know that if he doesn't travel?! When did he ever play other Europeans?! Wi-Fi?!).

Fox128 and the other good Austrian players are sticking with Melee and not playing Brawl (I'm assuming). That or they don't travel to his city every time they host tournaments in order to be honored by this presence, thus he's never actually gotten to play as them.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

[...] 5 otherwise viable characters.

The 5 characters...[...]

Two. Two. Two. Two. Two!

Two. Two. Two. Two. Two!

Two. Two. Two. Two. Two!

lol?

I'm counting either 3 or 4 viable characters - depending on whether you count Luigi as viable (I do ... some don't): DK, Bowser, Wolf and ... well Luigi.
Samus and Mario are atm not really viable, as long as nobody proves otherwise. Boss is the only player who does really well with Mario and Samus is ... completely underused (to say the least). I think Yuna is exaggerating, when he says only two of them are viable...Wolf and DK might be the only high tiers who get infinited but Bowser is perfectly viable and Luigi is also good enough imo.

Either way, I really stopped caring. I voted "Yes" but I perhaps shouldnt've...it doesn't matter in the end 'cuz nobody cares about that vote anyways.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Maybe that's why Luigi Player is (or at least thinks) he's "the best player in Austria, probably one of the best in Europe" (and how would be know that if he doesn't travel?! When did he ever play other Europeans?! Wi-Fi?!).

Fox128 and the other good Austrian players are sticking with Melee and not playing Brawl (I'm assuming). That or they don't travel to his city every time they host tournaments in order to be honored by this presence, thus he's never actually gotten to play as them.

Sorry for the double post but Serpit actually won a tournament. Idk the details but he won vs Izaw IIRC. So not all good Austrian players stick with Melee...Serpit plays (or played) Melee himself pretty decently but prefers Brawl.

Either way it's pretty cocky to consider yourself one of the best in the EU just by playing Wifi and me + Serpit @Luigi_Player. You never went OoS to the Netherlands for example...they have some good players, especially Gaki and you know basically nothing about the french / british scene, so don't speak big words yet.

 

[Yuna]

lol?

I'm counting either 3 or 4 viable characters - depending on whether you count Luigi as viable (I do ... some don't): DK, Bowser, Wolf and ... well Luigi.

I'm sorry, how many of these can D3 infinite from 0% or even at all before they hit the early 130's again?

lI think Yuna is exaggerating, when he says only two of them are viable...

I'm sorry, I said only two were viable when? Only two of the supposed five are infiniteable before they're dead meat anyway. The infinite does not randomly break the other match-ups.

Sorry for the double post but Serpit actually won a tournament. Idk the details but he won vs Izaw IIRC. So not all good Austrian players stick with Melee...Serpit plays (or played) Melee himself pretty decently but prefers Brawl.

That was obviously a joke meant to imply that the only way for Luigi Player to be the best player in Austria would be for everyone who was any good to have stopped playing.

Either way it's pretty cocky to consider yourself one of the best in the EU just by playing Wifi and me + Serpit @Luigi_Player.

Yes, judging your abilities as a Competitive gaming by how well you do on Wi-Fi is laughable. I agree 100% with this.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Oh OK, you meant the "0 death" infinte then? It still works on Wolf (and D3 himself) though, in theroy at least JFYI...

 

[Yuna]

Oh OK, you meant the "0 death" infinte then? It still works on Wolf (and D3 himself) though, in theroy at least JFYI...

D3 himself does not destroy himself in his match-up against himself, thus it is irrelevant. Besides, D3's infinites against Wolf and D3 himself are both extremely situational and requires you be grabbed right at the edge.

If we're gonna discuss banning those, we have ban Snake's Dthrow infinite (which, as far as I know, is an infinite) against all tall characters (which are many more than just two) at the edge.

 

[Zankoku]

I've seen you against his TL before actually, so I'm sure you've played.
He recently posted in the Best Vids of Each character thread that it's not easy what he does.
I know it to be true, I use IC's too.

But who do you think it's easier for?
Obviously, him due to experience right?
What's stopping him from getting it just like how wavedashing was for us in Melee?

Because the inputs are much more complex? It's like saying "What's stopping Fox players from getting the Cruel Waveshine Infinite down as naturally as just wavedashing?" Well, seeing as how you're doing about three times as much...

That's the thing though, isn't it?
End result--worth.

Jab is one of the easiest things to do in every game.ZSS has a 1st frame jab. You can push a so fast the controller catches fire in all it's technical difficulty, but if all it's doing is not as effective as B spam and side B spacing despite being easier, it's no point in using it.

Why spend money to have a girl with you every night when you can work a bit harder to get a girl friend and have her exclusively(hopefully) with less or no money( it won't be hourly but unless you find one that's not material god help you if you forget anniversary gifts)?

If you have a 70% chance of messing up a JC Shine infinite that deals 40% damage before your right hand spontaneously combusts, and a 20% chance of misreading a Shine into tech/wakeup punish that deals 37% damage, which would you go for?

In MBAC, a certain character has his normal combo that deals a fairly good amount of damage, and another combo that requires frame-perfect timing on two separate instances that deals 100 more damage. The only time people ever go for the second one is for combo vids when messing around in Practice Mode.

If it works as well as you say, and it gets out it will be mastered. Not like it's gonna hurt those Fox dittos and EPIC Falco v Fox matches.
(:


And Melee smashers are some of the most competitive people on the planet imo.
If it's worth it's weight it's done.

The only thing the JC Shine infinite is worth is bragging rights. I'm pretty sure the infinite has been known for a long time now, but it's still not used or even attempted most of the time.

 

[GofG]

Off topic, English isn't Yuna's first language either.

You're right... There's that extra foreign twist that makes me swoon. Thank you for pinning this down for me!

Also, I had forgotten about snake's dthrow infinite at the edge. I'd like to make a chart!



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A....................................B.....................................C........Z...................D..............................E



At the far left, we have stuff that isn't broken, and at the far right, we have stuff that is almost bannable.

A is Snake's dthrow infinite
B is the Ice Climber's alt-grab infinite
C is the entire character of Metaknight
Z is the Pikachu-Fox matchup
D is D3's infinite on two characters (the only reason it is further along than Pikachu-Fox is because it is on two, not one
E is Akuma


I would put things in the last 1% in the "banworthy" category.

 

[Brinzy]

In any event, if you main ANY character [...] If you know your opponent is unlikely to pick DeDeDe, it may be worth it.

1) You pretty much agreed with me.

2) I'm not a DK main, and I never once said that DK players deserve to not have to secondary.

3) That should be directed towards others.

 

[1048576]

Wait, lets pin this down. D3 can infinite Mario, Luigi, and Samus, but he needs to pummel them after every grab, allowing them to escape using a specific button mashing method until the early 130s. Thus, it doesn't count.

D3 can infinite himself, but this doesn't skew the matchup, so who cares, right?

D3 can chaingrab Bowser, but he has to walk forward slightly, so it's only a death grab if Bowser leaves him plenty of stage, right? Or can D3 continue the chaingrab at the edge while standing still?

D3 can **** DK.

So unless I'm mistaken about Bowser, that's only one character D3's infinite infinites besides himself.

Feel free to correct, flame, potato.

 

[da K.I.D.]

pretty sure he can infinite wolf over the edge.

 

[GofG]

Wait, lets pin this down. D3 can infinite Mario, Luigi, and Samus, but he needs to pummel them after every grab, allowing them to escape using a specific button mashing method until the early 130s. Thus, it doesn't count.

D3 can infinite himself, but this doesn't skew the matchup, so who cares, right?

D3 can chaingrab Bowser, but he has to walk forward slightly, so it's only a death grab if Bowser leaves him plenty of stage, right? Or can D3 continue the chaingrab at the edge while standing still?

D3 can **** DK.

So unless I'm mistaken about Bowser, that's only one character D3's infinite infinites besides himself.

Feel free to correct, flame, potato.

I believe the number is two. Mario, Luigi, and Samus have some method for getting out.

 

[Inferno_blaze]

D3 can chaingrab Bowser, but he has to walk forward slightly, so it's only a death grab if Bowser leaves him plenty of stage, right? Or can D3 continue the chaingrab at the edge while standing still?
.

the amount D3 has to move is so miniscule that he needs barely any stage to do a hell of a lot of damage. Not sure on the edge

 

[Brinzy]

pretty sure he can infinite wolf over the edge.

While this is true, I say that Wolf just doesn't go by an edge.

Is anyone affected by a platform?

 

[GofG]

D3 gets an insta-kill on Smashville if he can get a grab facing the direction that the platform is moving. He just dthrows as they move forward until finally the dthrow at the far side kills.

 

[Brinzy]

More reason for me to not face DDD there.

 

[GofG]

More like, more reason for you to come down to NC and play Melee with Foxy and I in the mountainhouse.

 

[Brinzy]

That's tomorrow, isn't it?

****ing family, getting two vehicles in the shop the week before I come home. I want my car back!

 

[GofG]

Yeah, his fest is tomorrow, but I mean in general! GTF to Raleigh!

 

[Yuna]

pretty sure he can infinite wolf over the edge.

If he grabs him... at the edge. So let's ban Snake's Infinite on every tall character! Thus, either we stop mentioning Wolves who are stupid enough to get grabbed right at the edge or we ban all wall-infinites and edge-infinites.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

In Wolfs case it doesn't matter where D3 grabs him...he can just CG him to the edge and then infinite him.

Just throwing that out here...without any opinion on this subject...

 

[Brinzy]

Doesn't that take some form of positioning, though? Won't Wolf go off the edge? Or does it not matter?

 

[Dark Sonic]

In Wolfs case it doesn't matter where D3 grabs him...he can just CG him to the edge and then infinite him.

Just throwing that out here...without any opinion on this subject...

I think Wolf just falls off the stage when you do that. Wolf hits the ground between grabs when you chaingrab him right? Well, if there's no ground then he would just fall and grab the ledge.

Wolf has to be dangling over the ledge for the infinite to work, so you'd have to grab him while he's in midair.