WakerofWinds
Smash Journeyman
MK: Will apparently suddenly become a worse character.
Scrubbing: Is apparently now a misused verb in addition to it's noun form.
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Should Metaknight Be Banned? The Poll (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)
- Thread starter GofG
- Start date
- Status
Iwan
Smash Ace
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
mk isn't even the best character!
Iwan
Smash Ace
Xeial
Smash Cadet
As it stands for the current meta-game, I cannot support a ban. MK's have not begun to dominate the tournament scene in my local circuit like they have elsewhere.
As a matter of personal preference, I have mixed feelings.
I am a Fox main. While I do have some options vs. MK, It is one of my harder match-ups. However, I have dedicated a large amount of time and energy to combating and developing an Anti-MK strategy. Does this mean that I should just abandon all of my work towards developing my character by simply banning the object of my frustration? No.
Also, while this may get me flamed, I have to throw this out there. Ever since the Ocarina codes for No-Tripping, Wave-Dashing and S/L-Canceling have been released, they have circulated widely amongst players in my area. Most of the few good Meta-Knight players in our area are now being beaten consistently by G&W, Snake, D3, et al. simply because of the increased speed of play. I cannot discount this fact. A new level of technicality has been added to our games, yet at the same time, Meta-Knight becomes less of the perceived terror that he is. S/L-Canceling does not drastically improve any aspect of his game. Wave-Dashing gives him only two real benefits; WD-to-DSmash and WD-to-Jab. Every other character has a plethora of new options and strategies opened to them.
But I digress...
All in all, the enforcement of this ban will rely on the sole-discretion of the TO's who are organizing tournaments. If this means that I travel to another circuit where MK IS banned, fine. Perhaps I'll place higher, perhaps not.
- X
EDIT: If someone wants to discuss the viability of hacks with me, send a PM. I do not wish to degrade the discussion in this thread further.
As a matter of personal preference, I have mixed feelings.
I am a Fox main. While I do have some options vs. MK, It is one of my harder match-ups. However, I have dedicated a large amount of time and energy to combating and developing an Anti-MK strategy. Does this mean that I should just abandon all of my work towards developing my character by simply banning the object of my frustration? No.
Also, while this may get me flamed, I have to throw this out there. Ever since the Ocarina codes for No-Tripping, Wave-Dashing and S/L-Canceling have been released, they have circulated widely amongst players in my area. Most of the few good Meta-Knight players in our area are now being beaten consistently by G&W, Snake, D3, et al. simply because of the increased speed of play. I cannot discount this fact. A new level of technicality has been added to our games, yet at the same time, Meta-Knight becomes less of the perceived terror that he is. S/L-Canceling does not drastically improve any aspect of his game. Wave-Dashing gives him only two real benefits; WD-to-DSmash and WD-to-Jab. Every other character has a plethora of new options and strategies opened to them.
But I digress...
All in all, the enforcement of this ban will rely on the sole-discretion of the TO's who are organizing tournaments. If this means that I travel to another circuit where MK IS banned, fine. Perhaps I'll place higher, perhaps not.
- X
EDIT: If someone wants to discuss the viability of hacks with me, send a PM. I do not wish to degrade the discussion in this thread further.
Iwan
Smash Ace
The recently released L-cancel and wavedashing hacks will never be taken seriously, although they ARE interesting. Also, I'm not sure how your players are beating metaknight consistently even with those hacks, seeing as how around here (Northern VA), messing around with the hacks have only proved that the codes make meta even more broken; Having only one airdodge available makes metaknight (and pit) so ridiculously dangerous from a combo stand point that it's crazy. Pit can actually arrow you to death, and meta knight can, in certain situations, nair, dair, or fair you off the stage with absolutely no way of escaping or getting out.
He already puts enough pressure on opponents, the melee air dodge system hack (although putting in WDing and L-canceling), makes some matchups so much more ridiculous than they already are that it makes the game even less balanced. This is all opinion, of course.
Circio
Smash Cadet
While I personally agree with this stance on the hacks, let's keep any discussion of them out of this thread. The current situation with Metaknight deals with the metagame as it stands now. This thread, if people bothered to read the OP's posts, is to conduct a poll to get a general idea of how people feel about this situation and to discuss said poll.
On topic: I have to vote a resounding no on this one. It has always been my personal contention that I would rather find a solution to a problem than simply remove the cause of the problem. New tactics have been recently coming to light (ex: Yoshi's grab release combo) that, while they do not completely destroy Metaknight, give players fighting against him more options. I think that we should give players the time to develop these strategies and experiment with them to see how they truly perform in a competetive environment before the idea of a ban can be fairly entertained.
Inui
Banned via Warnings
Good stuff. I used to work really hard on Marth vs Meta Knight and it actually did work out really well.
As you probably know, you're best way of beating him is to force him to approach with your lasers and then punish what he does with a drill or grab. Meta Knight loves approaching with aerials or d-tilt. You can easily drill the d-tilt and his aerials last a long time, giving you a long time to punish them if he misses. Going for a grab or up smash works well from what I've experienced. Up smash will kill Meta Knight at absurdly low damage.
I don't play Fox much, so I probably don't know as much as you. I just think of ways to beat Meta Knight to prove he's nowhere near broken or "too good" to be allowed. If Fox has options without even being that good of a character, then plenty of characters have hope.
Inui
Banned via Warnings
I am ABYSMAL at MK dittos. I'd much rather go Marth against MK then ditto them.
However...I just pick Snake. That's what I've been doing for a while now.
Fox... doesn't have good options though >_> He's not a very good character at all and just doesn't have the tools to deal with MK.
Dair is a horrible approach with horrible priority. All Meta has to do is shield it and punish. You can't just say "if he dtilts then dair," since the dtilt is insanely fast and Fox can't punish it with a jump to dair.. if anything >_>
All Fox really has is lasers and an up smash if he can land it.. that's it.
Wolfandike
Smash Apprentice
His bair can help but not much your right he just doesn't have moves to fight meta
LeeHarris
Smash Lord
Xeial
Smash Cadet
Thank you, Inui.
I would love to go over the logistics surrounding the hacks. Please PM me so we don't clog up the thread.
My sentiments exactly.
While I'd rather discuss this in the Fox thread, he does have a few good options.
1.) Bait the tornado on the ground and FSmash. Works well with lasers and canceling a backwards dash into an FSmash.
2.) Jump-canceled USmash is beautiful for kills. As Inui said, MK will die vertically much easier than most characters.
3.) Shine-stalled DAir mix-ups can work. Not a guarantee by any means, but they can work.
The main strength of Fox is the ability to out-camp him and his faster foot speed.
If anyone would like to continue this particular discussion, again, PLEASE PM me. I don't want to drive this too far off-topic.
UltiMario
Out of Obscurity
-Jumpman-
Smash Champion
Almost half the people voting disagree, that certainly doesn't mean MK should be banned.
MiraiGen
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2006
- Messages
- 710
I think that in the event of a tie it should default to 'no' - This is too close to make a firm decision on.
However much I hate Metaknight and want him to go away I don't want to take such a small margin of people that agree with me and use it to make my fighting easier.
However much I hate Metaknight and want him to go away I don't want to take such a small margin of people that agree with me and use it to make my fighting easier.
Shady Penguin
Smash Lord
These "I just work on fighting MK." rebuttals are really getting tiresome.
Yes, you can improve your chances against him by practicing. Yes, MK doesn't completely destroy everyone and their grandmas.
A lot of us aren't saying that MK is an unstoppable force who we want to ban just because we can't beat him. We want to ban MK because he is simply imbalanced.
MK's match-ups are utterly amazing even if he has some neutral ones, and he practically wrecks the counter-pick system due to pretty much being fine against anyone, anywhere.
New discoveries against him aren't completely out of the question, but MK losing his significant dominance is a slim-to-none chance that isn't worth all the time and effort.
Sure MK is easily more developed than most characters, but his extreme speed, insane amount of safe options, and immunity to most every chain grab make it unlikely that new ATs and strategies will be all that effective against him. Let's also not forget that anit-MK strategies have been brewing for a while and are quite developed, just not all that meaningful due to MK practically having a way around everything.
No matter how good he is, MK is only a single character. Banning him isn't much of a blow to the game. More famous characters like Mario are pretty much extinct at tournaments, but people hardly mind.
Yes, you can improve your chances against him by practicing. Yes, MK doesn't completely destroy everyone and their grandmas.
A lot of us aren't saying that MK is an unstoppable force who we want to ban just because we can't beat him. We want to ban MK because he is simply imbalanced.
MK's match-ups are utterly amazing even if he has some neutral ones, and he practically wrecks the counter-pick system due to pretty much being fine against anyone, anywhere.
New discoveries against him aren't completely out of the question, but MK losing his significant dominance is a slim-to-none chance that isn't worth all the time and effort.
Sure MK is easily more developed than most characters, but his extreme speed, insane amount of safe options, and immunity to most every chain grab make it unlikely that new ATs and strategies will be all that effective against him. Let's also not forget that anit-MK strategies have been brewing for a while and are quite developed, just not all that meaningful due to MK practically having a way around everything.
No matter how good he is, MK is only a single character. Banning him isn't much of a blow to the game. More famous characters like Mario are pretty much extinct at tournaments, but people hardly mind.
JackieRabbit5
Smash Journeyman
thats actually closer than i thought it would be...i think it would have to be over a 25% difference to start making it clear
MiraiGen
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2006
- Messages
- 710
All of what Penguin said, and also, Samurai Panda's first post in the other thread. Seriously.
It isn't helping much when you have an entire community dedicated to a game exclusively playing Metaknight because that's the only counterpick to Metaknight because everyone plays Metaknight.
It isn't helping much when you have an entire community dedicated to a game exclusively playing Metaknight because that's the only counterpick to Metaknight because everyone plays Metaknight.
Jim Morrison
Smash Authority
lol same numbers as obama - mcCain
I don't know why, but this made me laugh pretty good.
I guess it's because the absurdity of the concepts...
Meta Knight IS Brawl.
Deoxys
Smash Lord
I wish Obama were ahead that far...
Lord Viper
SS Rank
Hmm, isn't he farther than that right now? Unless your talking about votes only.
Edit: I almost got off topic... um... no he shouldn't be banned? ^_^;
But to constitute a ban, MK has to be "too good" to the point where he can't reasonably be beaten by anyone else. Being imbalanced doesn't automatically make him too good, just really good.
What constitutes a ban is still under heavy argument, isn't it? I personally find it absurd, considering how close MK is to the classification of "too good".
He's "good enough" to split the community, at least...
ftl
Smash Journeyman
Clearly, the conclusion is that we should ban Obama for being imbalanced.
Lord Viper
SS Rank
Hey, no Johns. ;D
Back on Topic: I still can't believe the polls are very close. A few months ago it would had been a land slide of saying no, but now... it's very close, like just about half and half want him in/out.
Back on Topic: I still can't believe the polls are very close. A few months ago it would had been a land slide of saying no, but now... it's very close, like just about half and half want him in/out.
Shady Penguin
Smash Lord
When you're as imbalanced as Meta Knight, you are "too good", and I don't see where somebody made it a rule that only impossible to beat characters can be banned.
To look at all this stuff simply, we should decide to ban MK based on if things will be better overall without him.
On the pro-ban side, we have a lot of agreed upon match-up evidence and tourney evidence. On the no ban side, we mostly have blind hope that new discoveries will smite MK, and very specific examples of MK losing/not doing great.
Pluvia's other account
Smash Master
Technically it's 60/40.Hey, no Johns. ;D
Back on Topic: I still can't believe the polls are very close. A few months ago it would had been a land slide of saying no, but now... it's very close, like just about half and half want him in/out.
The only side saying he must be "unbeatable" to ban is the anti-ban side, using it as a justification without evidence for it.
But you know, there's no governing body of Smash law that says this is a requirement.
You should shoot down the ban argument for its reasons being incorrect (Explain why MK isn't overcentralizing the metagame, why players aren't quitting, how we'll attract new players to come play their favorite characters (And get destroyed) with MK still running rampant, why it's okay that other characters' metagames have slowed to a crawl as everything becomes about how you fight MK, etc.) and not for opinions stating it just can't be done.
Kayzee
Smash Journeyman
No.
10101010
10101010
Meta Knight's days are numbered...give it a few MORE months...and it's curtains for the little blue *****.Hey, no Johns. ;D
Back on Topic: I still can't believe the polls are very close. A few months ago it would had been a land slide of saying no, but now... it's very close, like just about half and half want him in/out.
Deoxys
Smash Lord
MK doesn't have to be unbeatable to be broken. He just has to be strategically superior to any other character in any high-level metagame possible (i.e. all matchups better than 50/50) for it to be a no-brainer decision.
Also, Obama/McCain is "only" 53.5 to 46.5 in terms of expected congressional votes (when it's a ton of votes like a presidential election, that's a fairly safe margin KNOCK ON WOOD). Super-delegates are like 90 to 10 in favor of Obama, though, since they know what they're talking about.
Also, Obama/McCain is "only" 53.5 to 46.5 in terms of expected congressional votes (when it's a ton of votes like a presidential election, that's a fairly safe margin KNOCK ON WOOD). Super-delegates are like 90 to 10 in favor of Obama, though, since they know what they're talking about.
Personally, I don't want a super conservative or super liberal president. Unfortunately, Obama is as liberal as it gets.
WTB presidential candidates I would like to vote for, not ones I want to vote against.
Impossible to ban him then, his worst odds are always 50/50 vs. another MK. =P
10un-neededcharacters
Pichu Sensei
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- May 31, 2008
- Messages
- 156
If metaknight is bant, then it would encourage people not to hop on the tier bandwagon and develope characters they like. (but what if you like MK? Too bad, boo hoo 4 u nub.)
WakerofWinds
Smash Journeyman
MK is broken, he's been beaten by Kirby numerous times, never gets a scratch on him, and always gets his mask back. /topic
On the other hand, somebody else said it as I've said multiple times. It'd be nice if the people on the no-ban side would stop baiting people on the ban side into arguing about broken vs unbroken, as opposed to the reasoning many people on the ban side are using. (though I will admit, some of the people on the ban side are, of their own accord, debating broken or unbroken, I would implore you to ignore them.)
On the other hand, somebody else said it as I've said multiple times. It'd be nice if the people on the no-ban side would stop baiting people on the ban side into arguing about broken vs unbroken, as opposed to the reasoning many people on the ban side are using. (though I will admit, some of the people on the ban side are, of their own accord, debating broken or unbroken, I would implore you to ignore them.)
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