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Should "No Tripping" be a Tournament Standard?

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ph00tbag

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This thread is in response to concerns voiced in the thread, No tripping code 'tis out. That thread is for discussion of the No tripping code, technical details of its implementation on and offline, the legal status of Wii modification, and the feasibility and ramifications of other possible hacks utilizing the Homebrew Channel and Ocarina. It is not for discussion of the use of the No Tripping code in tournaments, and its effect on the metagame.

Despite this, several people have come to the thread voicing strong opinions against use of the code in tournament play. For that reason, I am creating this thread so that the use of the code in competitive Brawl play can be discussed calmly and intelligently. This thread is not to encourage flaming, shouting matches or generally disagreeable behavior. Instead it is to promote intelligent, educated discussion.

Against the code's use in competitive play, it has been said that use of the code in tournaments will be difficult to implement, requiring that every system brought to the tournament be modded with Homebrew Channel and Ocarina, and that every one have the code loaded onto their SD card. If someone brings a Wii that doesn't meet these specs, then it is a hassle for TOs.

The impact of this code on game balance has been brought up as well. Brawl was designed with tripping in mind. Indeed, several chain grabs are tempered by the chance that running to perform the next grab may induce a trip, ending the chain prematurely. This balance can't be ignored.

Further arguments have questioned the ethics of such modification vis-à-vis creator's intent and whether or not the game should be altered beyond the means provided by Masahiro Sakurai and Sora Ltd. They have argued that tripping was put in Brawl for whatever reason, and that that decision should be respected.

In favor of the code's use in competitive play, some argue that the hack is very easy to implement, and the check for whether a Wii can use the code is intuitive, making any hassle at tournaments almost negligible. Performing the hack costs little more than an SD card, an SD reader and a rental of Twilight Princess. Checking to see that the hack has been performed is no harder than checking for the Homebrew Channel, and finding the hack on the SD Card.

It has also been argued that tripping is an inane addition to Brawl that serves no competitive purpose. It is a randomly assigned disadvantage that is unpreventable and unpredictable. While it can happen without any ill effect, it can also happen at a point where someone could lose a match as a result. Therefore, it has no place in competitive Brawl, just as items are generally accepted as uncompetitive.

The speciousness of the argument with respect to creator's intent has also been brought up. Morally, the owner of the game can do whatever he wants with it, and creator's intent ended the moment the purchase was made. Furthermore, several other fighting games have been hacked and modified by the players, and the hacks and modifications were used in tournaments, and were ultimately implemented in later iterations of the games.

Personally, I don't care if the code is implemented in tournaments or not, although I'm going to go get an SD card reader in order to use this code on my own copy of Brawl. Therefore, my own attempts to summarize the argument are no doubt biased by my own feelings on the issue.

That said, feel free to voice your own opinion for or against, but please, no flaming or pejorative posts. The mods here are very good, and will likely keep a close eye on this thread. If it gets out of hand, I have no doubt that they will lock this thread and hand out infractions to all perpetrators, so keep it clean, please.
 

ADHD

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Nobody should expect tripping to save them from a chaingrab. Tripping is just hindering brawl's competitive development so just take the god **** thing out.
 

Hylian

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I have the no tripping code on my Wii.

I am hosting a pretty big Texas tournament and I am going to be using my Wii for the finals :).

No tripping = awesome.
 

GodAtHand

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Wouldn't you have to have some kind of big disclaimer or something in the tournament rules in order to make sure everyone understood that no tripping would be used. I can imagine having different wii sets would make this difficult, what if one finalist wants to play the game unaltered and the other wants no tripping. I think the one who wants to play unaltered wins the argument simply because thats how the majority of people have been playing the game and its how the game was made.

One way or the other for a tournament seems like a decent idea as long as all setups are the same, but mixing them together like that could cuase really big problems amongst players. I mean someone who is not used to playing without tripping wouldn't know the strategies that someone else could who has been using the no tripping code. EX = I don't really dash too much since I play a character who does best grounded (Zelda), I find that I can walk to get places pretty effeciently but without tripping I might be putting myself at a disadvantage.
 

-Ran

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As long as the set up time doesn't take long, I don't see a reason that Tournament Organizers would say no to this idea. However, other changes like hitstun, etc, would diverge too far from the normal Brawl Game Play to have high adoption rates.
 

talkingbeatles

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I'm fine with having it in or out. I mean, I've come to accept it as a part of the game. I would miss cursing Sakurai if tripping was completely taken out. So I mean, I'll play either "version" of the game, but I won't get it on my Wii. Nor will I try to ever host a trip free tournament.

And as far as adding in directional dodging or more hit stun. I think that's ****ing blasphemous. There's tweaking, and then their is making Melee 2.0, which admittedly, that wouldn't be a terrible game (It would be an awesome game!!), That's not what Brawl is.
 

Revven

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I have the no tripping code on my Wii.

I am hosting a pretty big Texas tournament and I am going to be using my Wii for the finals :).

No tripping = awesome.
Record the results on videos, I wanna see actual tournament matches with this shiz on! ;)
 

Ace55

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No tripping would be awesome. I can still curse at Sakurai when I get grab released.
 

SwastikaPyle

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Tripping rules, get rid of that patch now.

Also, there's no reason there can't be specific tournaments with the 'extra hitstun' version of Brawl or tournaments with unaltered versions of Brawl. This opens up a very varied version of Brawl in the future, which is both good and bad depending on whos looking at it.
 

popsofctown

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This thread is about tripping, discuss hitstun somewhere else.

I thought at first that no tripping wouldn't really affect anything, but i remembered that there is one part of the game it has a major effect on: dash dancing and foxtrotting. The two techniques become extremely more viable with no-tripping implemented. Characters with good initial dash frames could become better... and this could actual be an undue alteration of balance.

Of course, i suppose you could then ban dashdancing and foxtrotting, but i think no one wants that.
 

ADHD

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This thread is about tripping, discuss hitstun somewhere else.

I thought at first that no tripping wouldn't really affect anything, but i remembered that there is one part of the game it has a major effect on: dash dancing and foxtrotting. The two techniques become extremely more viable with no-tripping implemented. Characters with good initial dash frames could become better... and this could actual be an undue alteration of balance.

Of course, i suppose you could then ban dashdancing and foxtrotting, but i think no one wants that.
Why would you ban running back and forth anyway?
 

Foxy

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awmg nooooooooooo

please put this in tourney discussion, not in tactical.

seriously. tactical is for losers.

tourney discussion is where stuff like this needs to be.
 

nevershootme

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it's an extremely hard judgement for organizers to tell if they're using the code... who knows if one wii has slipped in an extra cheat aside from no tripping

the hack does not require any hardware modifications at all. only requires twilight princess and other stuff
 

GreatClayMonkey

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No. You do not hack games to play them in tournaments. Does Brawl need to be hacked in order to be Competitively viable? Well, then, maybe we shouldn't play Brawl at all.

What's that? It doesn't need to be hacked? Then why do it? After all, I some people hate DeDeDe's infinites. Let's hack those out! Next, let's hack Final Destination's edges. Then let's remove all chaingrabs. Then make Sheik's F-tilt have more knockback. Then let's give the game more hitstun and blockstun and then...
-Yuna

Think about this.
 

theONEjanitor

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if you can remove tripping without any adverse affects to the game why the **** would you leave it in? Any reason would be either wrong or arbitrary.

It's going to be impossible to literally put the code on every single wii to be used at tournaments, but I do like the idea of ensuring that a wii with no tripping be used in the finals.

Yuna's comment is incorrect because Tripping is not comparable to something like hitstun. Tripping has no effect on how good any individual character is, nor does it affect any moveset in anyway. It doesn't affect the balance of the game. That's why tripping is so ******** in the first place, it serves NO purpose other than to randomly screw you for no reason.
 

petrie911

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Logistically, this would be really easy to set up. If the Twilight hack works the way I think it does, the TO would simply need an SD card with the hacked save and a copy of TP. It could then be quickly installed onto any Wiis brought in.

One question, though. Since IIRC, putting the hacked save onto a Wii requires deleting your TP save, is there any way to get said save back, such as copying it to an SD card? If not, that may present a slight problem, but then again, no one would force you to do it.

As for Yuna's comment, I see he's using a slippery slope argument. But why would removing tripping lead to those other things? Not everyone agrees on whether or not those shouldn't be in the game, but I'd bet that everyone in the tournament scene agrees that we'd be better off without tripping.
 

popsofctown

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Quoted from Yuna
Does Brawl need to be hacked in order to be Competitively viable? Well, then, maybe we shouldn't play Brawl at all.
This is a non-sequitir. The conclusion is not adequately supported by the argument. The notion that anything that needs to be improved before it's useful should be trashed is not defensible. If the cost of the improvement is less than the benefits of the final product (which is a valid question, as there is inconvenience and cost going on here), then there's nothing wrong with keeping the original thing until it's improved.

All that would have been smoother with analogy, but losers have been hairsplitting all my analogies recently...
 

Amazing Ampharos

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theONEjanitor is actually incorrect; tripping has several effects on balance. Consider the following points:

1. Characters who input dashes more often are more likely to trip. This is a simple point; characters like Sonic care about tripping WAY more than characters like Jigglypuff. The fact that a dash input is inherently unsafe increases the potency of jumping, walking, and rolling as means of transport, and the characters more adept at that benefit from tripping.

2. Some characters punish trips better than others. Again, this is easy to understand. If you trip right in front of a smart opponent, they will probably get a free hit. Who benefits more from a free hit: Ike or Sheik?

3. Tripping limits the utility of certain techniques. Dashdancing and foxtrotting are generally not very useful in brawl because you are greatly increasing your odds to trip. Removing this limit on those techniques both rewards characters who better utilize those techniques and rewards players who are more adept at using those techniques.

4. Tripping makes ice shenanigans more tame. Ice is basically the best thing ever for approaches with a lot of the cast, and it would be significantly more deadly without that triple tripping rate that comes with ice. Pokemon Stadium 2 is allowed pretty much everywhere too so you can't just ignore this.

The point is that removing tripping isn't some trivial change or a strict positive; there's good and bad that ends up making brawl a somewhat different game. Adopting a different game as the standard seems like a poor choice, especially since if you are removing tripping you might as well modify anything else about the game mechanics that ultimately comes down to personal preferences which will end up alienating brawl players who disapprove of the changes. I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but I would REALLY hate more hitstun.

I would only agree that such a hack is fun for certain kinds of casual play though I think other hacks would be better for that. For instance, who wouldn't have fun with a hack that made WarioWare never give out mushrooms or stars? Of course, "have fun" is the key; that sort of thing should stay far, far away from tournaments.
 

theONEjanitor

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theONEjanitor is actually incorrect; tripping has several effects on balance. Consider the following points:

1. Characters who input dashes more often are more likely to trip. This is a simple point; characters like Sonic care about tripping WAY more than characters like Jigglypuff. The fact that a dash input is inherently unsafe increases the potency of jumping, walking, and rolling as means of transport, and the characters more adept at that benefit from tripping.
Removing Tripping still will not affect the fact that Wario is a better character than Captain Falcon. It won't affect that matchup in anyway, even though wario spends more time in the air. It will not affect the character balance in anyway. No character will all of sudden become broken or even slightly better in any way.

2. Some characters punish trips better than others. Again, this is easy to understand. If you trip right in front of a smart opponent, they will probably get a free hit. Who benefits more from a free hit: Ike or Sheik?
Taking out "free hits" is in no way a bad thing, and once that free hit is taken out, this becomes a moot point. Ike isn't going to move up the tier list because he can't land free f-smashes every twenty matches anymore. That's ridiculous.

3. Tripping limits the utility of certain techniques. Dashdancing and foxtrotting are generally not very useful in brawl because you are greatly increasing your odds to trip. Removing this limit on those techniques both rewards characters who better utilize those techniques and rewards players who are more adept at using those techniques.
The reasons these techs are not useful is because they suck in Brawl, not because of tripping. Fox trotting is still widely used by many players, but in general Fox trotting requires practice and timing, not to mention you can't fox trot in the reverse direction, making the move less useful. Dashdances don't really help because they are so short in brawl, you can't space with dash dancing in Brawl, people almost certainly would still generaly not use these moves if tripping were taken out. (and if the moves were useful, people would definitely use them in spite of tripping)
4. Tripping makes ice shenanigans more tame. Ice is basically the best thing ever for approaches with a lot of the cast, and it would be significantly more deadly without that triple tripping rate that comes with ice. Pokemon Stadium 2 is allowed pretty much everywhere too so you can't just ignore this.
Well, I'm of the opinion that PS2 should be banned, (and any stage with Ice) and I ban it in tournaments I run, so this is a different discussion.
The point is that removing tripping isn't some trivial change or a strict positive; there's good and bad that ends up making brawl a somewhat different game. Adopting a different game as the standard seems like a poor choice, especially since if you are removing tripping you might as well modify anything else about the game mechanics that ultimately comes down to personal preferences which will end up alienating brawl players who disapprove of the changes. I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but I would REALLY hate more hitstun.
More hitstun is a bad idea in and of itself, it would throw the balance off even more. But as I pointed out, you fail to show that tripping has any affect on character balance or movesets, because it doesnt. The game will not be "different", NO ONE plays this game while taking tripping into account, we pretend it's not there anyway. We would play the game exactly the same without it, except we wouldn't randomly be ****ed over for no reason.
 

Fearmy

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First it starts with tripping, next everyone is maining MK <_> Think about what you are doing
 

theONEjanitor

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First it starts with tripping, next everyone is maining MK <_> Think about what you are doing
Ridiculous slippery slope.
BTW: everyone already mains MK lol

Characters can attack out of a trip.
No they can't. You can GET UP an attack after falling, but not before you're vulnerable to a f-smash for a few frames because you're so surprised that you randomly fell when you weren't expecting it.
 

Doggalina

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It would be hard to implement it in a widespread manner, but doing something like Hylian is doing (using the cheat for important matches) would be an EXCELLENT idea.

popsofctown said:
I thought at first that no tripping wouldn't really affect anything, but i remembered that there is one part of the game it has a major effect on: dash dancing and foxtrotting. The two techniques become extremely more viable with no-tripping implemented. Characters with good initial dash frames could become better... and this could actual be an undue alteration of balance.
lol, no. You act like dash dancing (which is useless even without tripping) and foxtrotting (which is useful in small ways) give huge advantages to characters. THEY DON'T.
 

Steeler

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yuna did slide on that slippery slope argument, but he has a point. if we allow and encourage this hack, then there are bound to be people who will push for other similar hacks. hitstun is a big one. however, i don't forsee this happening as long as we keep the line firm on what is a minor change (tripping) and major change (hitstun, etc).

AA makes several good points, but most would argue that those are good changes to the balance of the game.

Point 1 doesn't make characters like Jigglypuff any worse, it just makes characters like Sonic (slightly) better.

Point 2, do you want to reward characters like Ike with a free ftilt/smash whenever your character decides to fall over? This adds nothing to the competitive value of the game, and is honestly the main reason for the outcry against tripping.

Point 3 gives some characters and players the ability to use a new potential 'mindgame' and approach. Again, it helps characters that benefit more from varied ground approaches like Sonic (if only slightly). I think this would be the biggest change in the game, and I don't think it'd be a bad change at all.

Point 4, well, that makes Pokemon Stadium 2 a lot more interesting eh? Although if only for about 20% of the time. ;)

Tripping is likely the ONLY thing in Brawl that anyone could ever agree upon as removable in tournament play. Everything else would just be too much of a change... the thing is making sure that it's the ONLY thing removed or altered on Wiis with the hacking software in place.

EDIT janitor guy summed it up a lot better than I did.

but anyway, as long as this were the ONLY thing altered, i'd be fine with it. Tripping adds nothing of value to this game, aside from a random and uncontrollable negative impact to the competitive scene. You can say "oh it can be controlled by just not dashing as much" but at that point some characters will be limited in what they can do. Not that people play any differently because of that random 1% of a trip anyway.
 

petrie911

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theONEjanitor is actually incorrect; tripping has several effects on balance. Consider the following points:

1. Characters who input dashes more often are more likely to trip. This is a simple point; characters like Sonic care about tripping WAY more than characters like Jigglypuff. The fact that a dash input is inherently unsafe increases the potency of jumping, walking, and rolling as means of transport, and the characters more adept at that benefit from tripping.

2. Some characters punish trips better than others. Again, this is easy to understand. If you trip right in front of a smart opponent, they will probably get a free hit. Who benefits more from a free hit: Ike or Sheik?

3. Tripping limits the utility of certain techniques. Dashdancing and foxtrotting are generally not very useful in brawl because you are greatly increasing your odds to trip. Removing this limit on those techniques both rewards characters who better utilize those techniques and rewards players who are more adept at using those techniques.

4. Tripping makes ice shenanigans more tame. Ice is basically the best thing ever for approaches with a lot of the cast, and it would be significantly more deadly without that triple tripping rate that comes with ice. Pokemon Stadium 2 is allowed pretty much everywhere too so you can't just ignore this.
1) I really don't see this making a difference. Tripping is quite rare, and in the vast majority situations, the potential gain of using the dash is much greater than the potential loss incurred by tripping.

2) Shiek, probably, as she gets a free ftilt lock, while Ike only has enough time for a jab combo, single tilt, or dsmash before the opponent rolls away. But as mentioned before, tripping is rare, so the chances of this actually coming up and the player reacting to it in time are very low, and it's certainly not something to rely on. Just one of those things that suddenly ****s over your opponent.

3) Dashdancing sucks in Brawl anyways, as you can't actually move anywhere with it, and there are many fewer options out of the dash than in Melee. Characters with good Foxtrots will probably use them anyways even with tripping, for the reasons outlined in point 1, and those with poor ones simply won't use it. I don't see this having a large effect here.

4) This means that one stage out of the ~30 legal stages works slightly differently 1/8 of the time. I really don't see this having more than a trivial effect.

Really, removing tripping will only serve to remove those few cases when tripping absolutely ****s someone over through no fault of their own. I would consider that perfectly reasonable.
 

theONEjanitor

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yuna did slide on that slippery slope argument, but he has a point. if we allow and encourage this hack, then there are bound to be people who will push for other similar hacks. hitstun is a big one. however, i don't forsee this happening as long as we keep the line firm on what is a minor change (tripping) and major change (hitstun, etc).

AA makes several good points, but most would argue that those are good changes to the balance of the game.

Point 1 doesn't make characters like Jigglypuff any worse, it just makes characters like Sonic (slightly) better.

Point 2, do you want to reward characters like Ike with a free ftilt/smash whenever your character decides to fall over? This adds nothing to the competitive value of the game, and is honestly the main reason for the outcry against tripping.

Point 3 gives some characters and players the ability to use a new potential 'mindgame' and approach. Again, it helps characters that benefit more from varied ground approaches like Sonic (if only slightly). I think this would be the biggest change in the game, and I don't think it'd be a bad change at all.

Point 4, well, that makes Pokemon Stadium 2 a lot more interesting eh? Although if only for about 20% of the time. ;)

Tripping is likely the ONLY thing in Brawl that anyone could ever agree upon as removable in tournament play. Everything else would just be too much of a change... the thing is making sure that it's the ONLY thing removed or altered on Wiis with the hacking software in place.
It doesnt' make any character's worse or better in anyway. The advantages other characters have over Sonic are still there in full effect. If it does make him better it makes him like .0000000000000000000000000000000000000001 times better which is completely insignificant.

As of now tripping is the only thing you can remove without changing the game.

Removing hitstun may be a good experiment, but we have to understand it will be an entirely different game, we'd probably have to rename it and anything.
 

betterthanbonds9

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yuna, sorry but tripping is not like that. Here's the thing, it has already been discussed the slight differences it makes and most agree that the differences are negligible. If these differences were in any way game breaking it'd be pointed out, but they've just been moot points.

i'm all for this
 

Patsie

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i'm all for TOs to take tripping out of their tournaments, first

i'm positive though that it won't happen on a wide scale. people will propose it to a lay (someone who doesn't frequent smashboards, someone who prolly owns a gaming shop that runs several games, compromising a good amount of TOs out there) TO. the first barrier would be convincing them that it doesnt belong in brawl, etc. some might listen and tell you to keep going. but the second you tell them that it involves hacking into your wii? lol, you're down to like 1 or 2 people who'll actually keep listening to you. even if the hack is harmless, most people will think that going to that length to take out tripping is way too much. even then, they might quit when realizing the work it takes to do to get it.

ive thought tripping was absolutely silly as a mechanic since day one, but ive never had as much of an issue with it as most people, it seems like.

but if TOs want to implement this, then good for them, its better than a brawl with tripping. i just highly doubt it will happen.
 

mariofanpm12

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I think this should be implemented. But if it is and there are people who disagree... it could split the boards in two, just as the melee-brawl debate has...

I don't think I'd be able to stand any more of these type of debates taking up 50% of the threads and posts, so they'd better find a way to balance it!

Otherwise, you won't be able to say "tripping" in any post or else, just as you can't say "melee" and "brawl" in the same post or it'll instantly become another meaningless debate.
 

Tatsujinken

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tripping is the only thing i want changed in brawl's gameplay really. but as much as i'd like for it to be the new tournament standard, i get the feeling that it's too late to pull this one off without having to deal with major inconsistencies with game versions in tournaments

ugh... basically, to make it simple: "god****it sakurai."
 

Tristan_win

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Excuse my french but...

**** tripping, ****ing Sakurai, and screw everyone who think it's unethical.

We aren't adding more hit stun or changing the game drastically we are just removing a element of chance from the game.

Now if you excuse me I think I need to get myself a SD card.
 

SketchHurricane

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The game will not be "different", NO ONE plays this game while taking tripping into account, we pretend it's not there anyway. We would play the game exactly the same without it, except we wouldn't randomly be ****ed over for no reason.
This is the flagship statement of the thread, IMO. I can honestly say that I have never once second guessed any in-game decision because I thought I might trip. No one thinks about tripping until it happens.

For those of you over analyzing the effects of tripping to argue for it's presence...seriously. Before this code came out, if someone walked up to you and said, "if you could take tripping out of Brawl, would you?" you would say yes. Not a single person would say no. The only possible way someone could come to the conclusion of "no" is if they over analyzed it.

Think about if the game had no tripping to begin with. Would you ever consider adding it to introduce a new element of balance? If you just said "how would adding a random element introduce balance to a game?" then you just answered the question of this thread. If adding tripping has no positive effect, then how would taking it away have a negative effect?

Tripping is a problem and nothing more.

Anything mistaken for a balance due to tripping is actually imbalance caused by tripping
 
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