Should "No Tripping" be a Tournament Standard?

[Johnthegalactic]

Just don't boot up the game from Ocarina or homebrew.

 

[swordgard]

That's a good idea.

That was my idea not his lmao >.>

Joking aside, i really dont think any other hack should be condoned, as for we dont want to create our own game, just fix tripping for it has absolutely no place in the game.

It should not be a requirement, but i definitly think it should be an option if both parties agree unto it. I for one think no party would actually be agaisnt this(unless it removes Diddy tripping banana powers but that i dont know)

I too had alot of respect for yuna, and i stilll do, although i do think his rant is unjustified, i still understand him. We really should be carefull about what we allow, but i think this can only improve the game/

 

[fkacyan]

If you can mainstream this, go ahead, do it.

However, like I've said, I highly doubt this is feasible. It will also hurt the game's image moreso than it already has been.

 

[Revven]

If you do this mod and take tripping out... How do you get it back? Just take the SD card out?

*Facepalm* It's a temporary code JUST like AR, you just exit out of the game and go back in without booting from Ocarina.

 

[Ulevo]

THIS should be the competitive standard, no questions ask.

Brawl =/= Melee. This is true. Just because Melee had hitstun and the like does not mean that Brawl has to have it, or should have it. One can argue details like this all day. I can accept this, and I'm sure others do to, however...

There is no excuse, rhyme or reason for tripping.

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

I've said it multiple times in this thread: "HACKING THE GAME WILL NEVER BE ACCEPTED IN MAJOR TOURNAMENTS".

This thread is titled "Should 'No Tripping' be a Tournament Standard?"

The answer is a "NO, DURRRR".

You can hack the game if you want to. Actually, I encourage it. I love mods on games.

However, the hacked game will never be a tournament standard because it is just as much a part of the game as anything else.

 

[GofG]

However, the hacked game will never be a tournament standard because it is just as much a part of the game as anything else.

Please clarify your pronoun usage.

 

[Foxy]

If you do this mod and take tripping out... How do you get it back? Just take the SD card out?

Or just don't run the game from the HBC/Ocarina.

EDIT: Beat to it.

 

[Ulevo]

I've said it multiple times in this thread: "HACKING THE GAME WILL NEVER BE ACCEPTED IN MAJOR TOURNAMENTS".

This thread is titled "Should 'No Tripping' be a Tournament Standard?"

The answer is a "NO, DURRRR".

You can hack the game if you want to. Actually, I encourage it. I love mods on games.

However, the hacked game will never be a tournament standard because it is just as much a part of the game as anything else.

Guns, violence, ****, nudity, swearing... All of these are part of life like everything else. They are common, they happen, and they affect the world around us, and the people that live in it. This does not mean that they are allowed freely, or that limitations and laws are not placed upon them.

I may be tracking in murky water with this metaphor, but I'm sure you understand, even if this is just a game we are discussing here.

The fact is that tripping serves no actual purpose, and actually limits the competitive community. That is not what we want, and we would be silly to not do something about it if we had the choice to. Am I right?

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

Guns, violence, ****, nudity, swearing... All of these are part of life like everything else. They are common, they happen, and they affect the world around us, and the people that live in it. This does not mean that they are allowed freely, or that limitations and laws are not placed upon them.

I may be tracking in murky water with this metaphor, but I'm sure you understand, even if this is just a game we are discussing here.

The fact is that tripping serves no actual purpose, and actually limits the competitive community. That is not what we want, and we would be silly to not do something about it if we had the choice to. Am I right?

No, you are actually quite wrong.

Your metaphor is an extreme one that compares a video game to ****. It is foolish to ever compare a horrific crime to a function in a game that you find annoying.

Brawl is still too new to be cutting things out of it already. And again, if you don't like playing the game the way it should be, don't play competitively or play another game.

 

[Revven]

Brawl is still too new to be cutting things out of it already. And again, if you don't like playing the game the way it should be, don't play competitively or play another game.

And here comes the subjective part of your logic, the way a game is meant to be played. As I just stated, it's subjective, everybody has a different view of how to play the game. Your view is that it should be played with tripping and everything else minus items that we can get rid of without codes for competitive play, which is fine and dandy. Kinda making your opinion on this a bit biased though. Just don't be surprised if this does become the standard.

Note my "if" I'm not saying it definitely will.

 

[Deathcarter]

However, the hacked game will never be a tournament standard because it is just as much a part of the game as anything else.

There is no way you can say tripping is as important and significant to the game as the characters, stages, gameplay, sse, trophies, stickers, or the frickin' chronical considering how EASY it is to change compared to the others.

Tripping serves no value of any kind (not even casual value unless you can find a casual who wants to trip over attacking or dashing).

And by the way, we are already going against the intended purpose of the game by playing the game competetively, so the "how a game should be played argument" is moot.

And if tourney organizers use their own Wii for the mod, I don't know why any other participant will be complaning.

 

[ThaRoy]

Brawl is still too new to be cutting things out of it already.

I am hesitant about that only for one reason. Simply put, the 'trip-less' Brawl would actually be a mod of Brawl and not the game itself. Brawl is what it is, it will never be changed. It could be updated, but regardless, it is Brawl.

Now, if we modded Brawl, it no longer becomes Brawl. It becomes whatever we want it to be. As such, who is to say that Brawl can not be made better? If that scenario is applied to real life, the outcome would be simple.

We'd have a new game. It'd be the same except for one element.

Take for example, GoldenEye Source. A team of people are remaking Goldeneye on Valve's Source Engine. Now, the game is not GoldenEye. It's a clone on the Source engine with new mechanics. If you don't like that mod, then don't play it. Regardless, it's out there. The entity will travel it's own path.

Perhaps, in the future, a few more mods will be added. Then you have a new Brawl and old Brawl. So play what you like, it's all possibility.

Possibilities are only possible because of potential.

 

[MSTK]

Can we limit questions about the mod itself, here? It should be clarified that this thread is a discussion about its uses in tournament play and not about its mechanics; there is a completely different thread than that. It's annoying to read through a string of constructive posts and then having to read "Tripping should be in because Diddy's special won't work anymore," or "How do I unmod my wii?"

That being said, I find that the argument regarding tripping seems to parallel the argument regarding items. In each case, the goal was to eliminate the element of chance from tournament play. To win from a lucky item was to say, "I need luck in order to win." If it was luck that enabled your win, then your win was not determined by skill alone (unless you possess the uncanny ability to control the RNG of your console).
Such results find no place in a tournament; a tournament is a test of skill, and if a win comes from luck, what judge of skill is that?
Most of you have probably used that exact argument to convince your non-competitive players to play without items.

The removal of items from the game was an active step to negate the element of luck and randomness in a match, in order to purely judge skill.

Now, the exact same argument is valid against the mechanic of tripping. Removal of tripping would be an active step to negate the element of luck and randomness in a match. Only then can one purely judge skill.

I clicked on this thread with every intention of keeping in tripping. I believed that it was a legitimate balance act. But that viewpoint became harder and harder to maintain. Tripping does not affect me much, because I main Jigglypuff (and therefore the only time I find myself on the ground is to refresh my jumps). But I am sure that if there were a tripping on/off switch in the game, just like an items on/off switch, this argument would not even be an issue. Nobody who plays seriously would leave on the element of randomness if it were just a matter of a flick of a switch.

Brawl as it exists with tripping is not unbalanced. Actually, I should rephrase that, because I do not claim the complete knowledge or ego to be able to make that statement. Brawl as a game without tripping is more or less the same as the game with tripping, in terms of character balance; it has a slim chance of making Jigglypuff better, but it has an equal chance of making everyone worse.

I'll take an argument by someone earlier in this thread. Say someone presents you Brawl for the first time, without tripping. You play through it. You think it's a nice game, but you have complaints (the same complaints as everyone else; the complaints not regarding tripping).
Now, if that person were to say, "I have an idea that would fix the imbalances...how about everyone who tries to dash trips randomly?"

You'd probably flame that person to hell. Admit it, you would.

The only issue here is the hassle of modding and -- what was more pervasive, to me -- the ethical issues of rejecting the game that Nintendo worked so hard to build. It is somewhat of a slap in the face.

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

And here comes the subjective part of your logic, the way a game is meant to be played. As I just stated, it's subjective, everybody has a different view of how to play the game. Your view is that it should be played with tripping and everything else minus items that we can get rid of without codes for competitive play, which is fine and dandy. Just don't be surprised if this does become the standard.

Note my "if" I'm not saying it definitely will.

There is a difference between toggling on/off an option in game and changing the coding of the game itself.

Besides, people DO play in tournaments with different in-game settings.

There is no way you can say tripping is as important and significant to the game as the characters, stages, gameplay, sse, trophies, stickers, or the frickin' chronical considering how EASY it is to change compared to the others.

Tripping serves no value of any kind (not even casual value unless you can find a casual who wants to trip over attacking or dashing).

And by the way, we are already going against the intended purpose of the game by playing the game competetively, so the "how a game should be played argument" is moot.

And if tourney organizers use their own Wii for the mod, I don't know why any other participant will be complaning.

It serves value simply in the fact that it was included as a feature that was meant to stay in the game.

If there were an option put in that said "Tripping: On/Off", I would be happy to flip it off. However, there was no option put in so it should be left alone in competitive play.

 

[leelue]

out of curiosity, why would you want it back?

EDIT wow i was off by a whole page

 

[Ulevo]

If there were an option put in that said "Tripping: On/Off", I would be happy to flip it off. However, there was no option put in so it should be left alone in competitive play.

This in itself is a naive statement. What difference does it make if the method to eliminating a gaming fault is flipping a switch in an options menu, or putting in a SD card? Really? Sakurai didn't want us to play competitively. That doesn't mean we shouldn't, even those his attempts to discourage players from doing so are blatantly obvious.

As for my previous example, it is no different. The severity of the issue is, yes, and I by no means meant to offend anyone. That still wasn't the point of the statement I made. Rules are put in place and enforced for reasons that justify the cause, and in any aspect of life. That was what I was trying to explain. In any case, I believe most of the community here would agree that the cause in this case is justified by the reason.

 

[ddonaldo]

as long as diddy can still induce tripping via banana peels then im kool with it

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

Someone else already said it, if you hack the game, it is a different game.

You can play Brawl 2.0 or whatever you choose to call it, but hacking will not be a part of brawl.

 

[AlphaDragoon2002]

This in itself is a naive statement. What difference does it make if the method to eliminating a gaming fault is flipping a switch in an options menu, or putting in a SD card? Really? Sakurai didn't want us to play competitively. That doesn't mean we shouldn't, even those his attempts to discourage players from doing so are blatantly obvious.

As for my previous example, it is no different. The severity of the issue is, yes, and I by no means meant to offend anyone. That still wasn't the point of the statement I made. Rules are put in place and enforced for reasons that justify the cause, and in any aspect of life. That was what I was trying to explain. In any case, I believe most of the community here would agree that the cause in this case is justified by the reason.

I think his point is simply that if it was something that was originally included in the game, no special hacks or codes needed, then he'd be cool with it. But because you have to do something that's "wrong" (voiding your warranty by hacking firmware and such that Nintendo specifically doesn't want going on) to do it he doesn't like the idea as a standard.

 

[Ulevo]

Someone else already said it, if you hack the game, it is a different game.

You can play Brawl 2.0 or whatever you choose to call it, but hacking will not be a part of brawl.

Why, because you say it is? Or because you assume so? I really think you should let the community decide.

I think his point is simply that if it was something that was originally included in the game, no special hacks or codes needed, then he'd be cool with it. But because you have to do something that's "wrong" (voiding your warranty by hacking firmware and such that Nintendo specifically doesn't want going on) to do it he doesn't like the idea as a standard.

I understand perfectly what he said, and why he doesn't like the idea. That doesn't mean it makes sense, or that it disproves anything I've mentioned.

 

[AlphaDragoon2002]

I myself am also of the mindset that if it has to be hacked to make it happen, then I don't know about using it. But that's me personally, I don't care if you guys wanna use it.

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

Brawl was made including the unchangeable aspect "tripping". If you take that out, you have made a new version of the game. That version can be played by whomever chooses; however, this thread is made to discuss Super Smash Bros Brawl, not some hacked game.

If you want to discuss another game, go to a different forum.

 

[infernovia]

You know, in competitive pokemon online, there is a thing called sleep clause (or any clause actually) that wasn't part of the original game.

And because you have "clauses" is the internet pokemon battle not pokemon? It makes the game less gay and more fun. If you have the ability, why not do it? And why is it wrong to do so?

 

[NinjaFoxX]

Someone else already said it, if you hack the game, it is a different game.

You can play Brawl 2.0 or whatever you choose to call it, but hacking will not be a part of brawl.

if i could say....a hack that has been a tourney standard,like....CS,it was a hack to make the game more competitive,this is the same for brawl,making an noncompetitive game into a competitive one

 

[leelue]

What i dont understand is why he would want us not to play brawl competitively. If Melee wasn't such a huge success, including all the exposure it got through its competitive nature (as well as all the in depth wonderful stuff and nuances that I will never stop loving, unlike brawls obvious face slaps like tripping and the innumerable glitches and chain grabs found withing only 5 months of the games release /rant), there wouldn't have been a Brawl. There wouldn't have been hour or longer lines outside of gamestops everywhere on midnight in the middle of a cold spring waiting in anticipation for what turned out to be a disappointing game.

Dont misquote me on that, I love brawl. I love playing it more than melee. But melee, with all its flaws (not too many *cough cough fox falco rapefest*) was a better programmed game. Easily. They got rid of many pro level stuff like L cancelling and Wavedashing and i can respect that somewhat. But adding in randomness to one of the best fighting game series' (and my personal favorite system of fighting) in history and allowing that randomness to be gamebreaking on occasion and not allowing it to be optional is a total punch to the crotch to players everywhere.

I dont know what fuzzy gumdrop land Sakurai is living in, but competitive can coincide with casual. Just look at virtually every popular game around. Halo has casual players, serious players, and pro players. Everyone as fun. Same with games like street fighter, magic the gathering or even board games. Completely alienating one portion of your target population is never a good idea.
This also has something to do with my disdain for chain grabbing (in a fashion that eliminates skill like say D3's down throw as opposed to say Kirby's grabs or D3's Up throw) because it alienates players who want to play competitive but not without having fun.... but thats another argument entirely.

Wow that was long.... Anyway, for those of you who skim paragraphs like that (you know who you are...) my personal stand on the issue is that i think that anyone who wants to organize a no tripping tournament should be encouraged. I for one know 3 people on long island, myself included, who will be glad to donate their Trip-Free-Wii's to help the cause. If people go to tournaments with mix/matched wii's and two players want to play on different ones, the pro-trip player should get the right to get the original copy, because hey, it is the original copy. Different characters play better with tripping on, and certain characters trip less (there is a thread on it) so it could be an actual advantage (albiet a random one) Perhaps then the other player could get an advantage by choosing his controller port first (another small but measurable advantage).

I just think that shunning it for the sake of purity when everyone and their dog knows its detrimental to fair gameplay is shortsighted and close minded. It looks benificial, give it a chance.

 

[Revven]

as long as diddy can still induce tripping via banana peels then im kool with it

I really seem to think that the OP should have said that we're talking about run induced tripping NOT attacks that induce tripping (this includes but is not limited to Diddy's bananas and Luigi's Dtilt). The code does not affect moves that induce tripping, it only affects dash/run induced tripping.

 

[swordgard]

Brawl was made including the unchangeable aspect "tripping". If you take that out, you have made a new version of the game. That version can be played by whomever chooses; however, this thread is made to discuss Super Smash Bros Brawl, not some hacked game.

If you want to discuss another game, go to a different forum.

Excuse me but this is a pretty irationnal statement. Why are you even here, we are by definition not even playing the game its creators intended to. Lets stop wavedashing in melee, it was not in the game creators vision, thus we are playing a whole new game with those advance techniques. Tell to whom it may be harmfull, i see it as benificial for everyone. Therefore, it should be a standard or at least be allowed when asked. I mean, ive seen plenty of games, and as far as i know, this is far from changing the basis or the game or even its balance, its just a plus, a small bonus. If you cant see that the difference between using unexpected behavior in a game and in hacking it is very slim, then you are blind.

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

Wavedashing was part of the coding in melee.

I've said it multiple times: "I don't care what you hack, but we are discussing whether or not it should be Brawl Tournament Standard".

 

[Impp]

And again, if you don't like playing the game the way it should be, don't play competitively or play another game.

....or mod it, so you like playing it.

 

[Ulevo]

People do not like straying from the norm, and I can understand that. It reminds me of the discussion topics we had months ago as to whether Heavy Brawl should be considered for standard. I personally wasn't up for it due to it straying away from what Brawl actually is, and it would be like playing a different game.

But this is a simple solution to a ridiculous and unnecessary problem we could all agree to live without.

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

It is still a part of the game and should stay even if you don't like it.

It is a neutral feature in the game, it is not game-breaking.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

Tim, stop it with your vague statements designed just to argue a viewpoint that you aren't even sure of. You never make any good points, you just say, "it won't be the same Brawl'. Unless you've got a valid argument, stop.

Tripping is neutral in the same way that items are neutral. We turn items off, we should turn tripping off. We are not significantly affecting any one character here.

It doesn't have to become the 'tourney standard', but I would love it if No Tripping tournaments were set up.

 

[cheap_josh]

This should've been a poll.

 

[Ulevo]

Brawl was made including the unchangeable aspect "tripping". If you take that out, you have made a new version of the game. That version can be played by whomever chooses; however, this thread is made to discuss Super Smash Bros Brawl, not some hacked game.

If you want to discuss another game, go to a different forum.

This thread is meant to discuss the idea behind hacking Brawl, not Brawl itself. If you can't realize this, or the purpose for it, you shouldn't be discussing anything here.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Tim, stop it with your vague statements designed just to argue a viewpoint that you aren't even sure of. You never make any good points, you just say, "it won't be the same Brawl'. Unless you've got a valid argument, stop.

Tripping is neutral in the same way that items are neutral. We turn items off, we should turn tripping off. We are not significantly affecting any one character here.

It doesn't have to become the 'tourney standard', but I would love it if No Tripping tournaments were set up.

^This


Honestly, anyone who defends tripping seems to act the same way, lol. There's no real reason to want this other than for the sake of saying "ur changing da game, stop it gaiz"

 

[popsofctown]

Brawl was made including the unchangeable aspect "tripping". If you take that out, you have made a new version of the game. That version can be played by whomever chooses; however, this thread is made to discuss Super Smash Bros Brawl, not some hacked game.

If you want to discuss another game, go to a different forum.

That's technically correct. But i think the mods are in charge of such issues like off-topic conversation, and if they decide to give us leniency then they have given us leniency, and you are not a mod.

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

I'm not arguing to defend tripping itself. I'm arguing to keep hacking out of the standard tournament rules for Brawl.

@Ulevo: This thread is not meant to discuss the hack itself, there is a seperate thread for that. This thread is meant to discuss tournament legality.

 

[ph00tbag]

Just to be clear, neither Homebrew nor Ocarina can realistically be said to void your warranty, and it's debatable as to whether they violate the EULA for the Wii. They are both legal hacks in and of themselves, so the only worry is the potential for damage to your Wii or SD card, and even that's only possible if you really mess up.

The concern that I see dominating this thread at this point is that Brawl without tripping is not Brawl. There's no real good response to this. It's true that with this hack, we're no longer playing Brawl as Masahiro Sakurai intended it to be. But then, when given this alternative, I'll gladly play !Brawl over Brawl, myself, because !Brawl is much more fun for me.

 

[GofG]

First let me say that if the Debate Room is letting people like Tim in, then Crimson King really aught to take a second look at the entry requirements. I seem to remember them being an essay or something, maybe that's changed, but Tim very clearly cannot debate even when it's a topic he actually cares about. A shame.

Tim, the most competitive game on earth currently is called StarCraft. It is a real-time strategy game developed by Blizzard, and currently StarCraft professionals make upwards of five hundred grand a year. It can be equated with American Baseball, in terms of popularity, in Korea. Sure, some kids go out to play ball for quality time with their dads; others play StarCraft.

Currently, none of Blizzard's maps are being used competitively in any tournament. Blizzard acknowledges this and encourages players to make maps more tailored towards competitive play, with things like more mineral spawns, a different deployment of ramps, and other small tweaks that generally make the game more competitively viable.

Blizzard realized something early on with StarCraft: the competitive players knew the game a hell of a lot better than they did. The competitive players were so much more knowledgeable about the game than the developers, one Korean claimed that he could probably rewrite the entire game from scratch if he wanted to. Perfectly.

Now, obviously, as the game has an in-game map editor, the intent all along was for players to develop content, but this example hopefully demonstrates that, when a game becomes competitive, the competitive players spend billions more man-years breaking the game than the developers spent making it. This is true of any competitive game, ever. Street Fighter (every variant, from alpha 2 to sf3), Marvel vs. Capcom, the obvious Super Smash Bros. Melee, the entire Puzzle Fighter franchise, World of Warcraft, Armagetron Advanced, Diablo 2, Magic: The Gathering, Yu-Gi-Oh, Warcraft 1-3, Guilty Gear, Devil May Cry...

Competitive gaming developed all of these games further than they ever would have gone otherwise (maybe not WoW but **** it). Developers have always encouraged stuff like mods and custom maps. They make the game better.

Name a PC shooter that doesn't come with a "mods" option menu tab, or doesn't have a "/mods" directory in the root directory of the game. Competitive gamers are meant to change games to suit their needs..

To say that there is some imaginary line between "the actual game" and "the modified version of the game" that we can't cross is absurd.